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Post by banditms on Mar 7, 2007 14:24:19 GMT -5
The Forum has Moved: itistheride.boards.net/index.cgiGreetings, I thought I'd take a minute to address this question (or statement) since I had the opportunity to talk with a customer on the phone about again on Monday. It appears that there is a ton of confusion out there as to how many different 250cc engines there are for scooters coming out of China... and most of the confusion is caused by online sellers who don't have a clue in the least. I've talked to people on the phone about it, and read on this forum some interesting opinions. I read with amusement the thread from AJ in the general forum about his search for a new scooter - and what he found for HP ratings on the Roketa Bali 250. It's amazing what sellers will actually print... scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1172981769Well, at this time I'd like to clarify the entire 'mystery' as it is. I think that there are many people who understand that there are multiple engine sizes for 250cc scooter engines coming out of China, but how to identify them is whats not generally known. There are, of course, TWO engines in the 250cc scooter class coming out of China at this time. The first, and way more common, is the 244cc CVT engine based on the Honda CN250 Helix and made by CF Moto. It's most apparent identifying marks are it's cylinder which lays backwards from the vertical position as shown in the photo. Another critical identification mark is the exhaust muffler shape, size and trim.  The second is the 257cc CVT engine based on the Yamaha YP250 Majesty and made by Linhai. The original YP250 was a 249cc engine at 69mm bore x 66.8 stroke. The 257cc version is just 1mm larger on the bore. The 257cc CVT engines most apparent identifying mark is that it's cylinder points towards the front wheel - or is in a horizontal position with the ground. It also has a distinctive exhaust to help identify it...   The stated HP rating of the 257cc CVT engine on the Linhai website is 18.75 HP. The stated HP rating of the 244cc CVT engine on the CF Moto website is 16.75 HP. If you can't believe the information from the manufacturers of the engines, then there's no need to print anything... There are no 14 HP, 15 HP, 16,6 HP or 19.2 HP 250cc CVT engines coming from China. I have viewed online seller websites that indicate their scooter engine is a 249cc CVT engine size - for which there are none of those either. The other main difference between the two engines, and a major selling point, is that they typically come mounted with different size wheels. The 244cc CVT engine can only mount a 10" wheel whereas the 257cc CVT engine can mount a 12" wheel. Rumor has it that CF Moto is extending the swing arm of its 244cc CVT engine so that it can accept the 12" wheels, but that is not confirmed as of yet. And the 257cc CVT engine will also have rear disc brakes over the drum brakes found in the 244cc CVT engine. The main reason why I am posting this thread is because I had a customer (not mine) call and e-mail me last summer to tell me about a situation he was having with an online seller. This customer talked to the seller directly on the phone and told them that he wanted to buy a 250cc scooter that had the 257cc engine, the 12" wheels, would be bright red, and wouldn't have Roketa labels all over it. Of course, the seller told him that, yes, their scooter had the 257cc CVT engine with 12" wheels, would be bright red, and even though their scooter was built in the same factory as Roketa, it wouldn't have any Roketa stickers on it... So the customer recieves the scooter. It has 10" wheels, is a dark burgundy color and is covered with Roketa stickers. And with my help, he identified the motor as being the 244cc engine (vertical cylinder). Furious that he's been lied to when he asked them directly about the specs, he calls to explain what happened and what information he found with my help. They told him that I was lying. Nothing about their own lies or misrepresentation of their products. They tried very hard to convince him that I was lying about my scooters having 257cc engines and that no one really did for that matter. Last I heard, he sued their panties off and won... Anyways, my main goal with this thread is to shed some light as to what TWO CVT engines are available from China in the 250cc class scooters... and how to easily identify each one... and how to catch a seller in an outright lie if they are misrepresenting... Thanks, Jim J... Bandit MotorSports www.bandit-motorsports.com |
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Post by Aaron on Mar 7, 2007 15:48:34 GMT -5
Thanks Jim! Good post.
Aaron
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Post by Charlie on Mar 7, 2007 17:00:05 GMT -5
Great post! I learned a lot from it! I am currently searching for a 250 (my wife isn't....ack) and will check out your website as I have not been on it for a while.
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Post by automattic on Mar 7, 2007 18:16:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the good info.
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Post by automattic on Mar 7, 2007 18:24:43 GMT -5
I was also wondering where does the 260cc and 300cc Linhai engines fit in this scheme of things? What is the real displacement of these two engines?
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Post by 90GTVert on Mar 7, 2007 18:41:17 GMT -5
Good post, Jim. Unfortunately, with all of the internet drop shippers, they often don't even know what they are selling. I can think of several right off the top of my head that make/made these exact claims when in fact the information they pushed was/is dead wrong. Stan
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Post by cruseman on Mar 8, 2007 2:43:30 GMT -5
I looked at my owners manual for my Diamo Turista with a linhai engine. The manual says it was 275 cc.
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Post by earlwb on Mar 8, 2007 6:43:18 GMT -5
Hey, thanks for the info. Stuff like that was one reason I didn't get a 250cc scoot earlier.
Heck on my little model of 150cc scoot, they have the HP ratings as 6.5, 7.5, 8.8, 9.5, 9.6, and even 14hp depending on which dealer site you look at. It even has 12", 13" and 16 inch wheels too. But it really has 13 inch wheels.
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Post by WarrenS on Mar 8, 2007 10:53:00 GMT -5
The 260 is probably 257. The 300 is actually a 275. Probably a slightly larger bore. My Burgman 400 is actually a 385. This fudging on the numbers has been going on for ages.
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Post by johnnyscoots on Mar 8, 2007 11:44:54 GMT -5
Have any of the 250 scoots been dynoed just for curiosity's sake? I wonder if we could get someone to do a dyno run just so we can sift through the BS and get some cold, hard numbers.
I have also seen HP ratings for the 244cc run from 12 to 14.5 and above. Kinda makes you wonder.
John
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Post by banditms on Mar 8, 2007 13:32:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the positive feedback fellow Dawgs!
To answer some of the questions we have sparked...
Automattic - The 260cc and 300cc engines that you've heard or read about are based on the Linhai 257cc engine. In fact, the true engine displacement of the 260 IS 257cc... so they are the same engine. The 300cc version is just an overbored 75mm cylinder and larger head put on the 260 (257cc = stock bore of 70mm). The 300cc has a true displacement of 290cc... and manufacturers have long rounded engine displacements up - but they have to always state the true displacement in their specs ie. warsteins Burgman 400 being a true displacement of 385cc...
Cruseman - Your Turista's manual has a typo. It's the Linhai 257cc CVT engine (a 260). Diamo's website calls the Turista a 260, and shows the specs for the engine as being a 'Yamaha 258cc, SOHC, Single Cyl , 4-stroke, liquid-cooled.' They can call it a 258cc as that's close enough, but I think calling it a 'Yamaha' is overstepping their bounds. I think I referred to it earlier as 'misrepresenting'...
Warstein - see above about true displacements...
Johnnyscoots - Thats why I made the comment about my HP rating information coming from each engine manuf's website. We have to assume that they did the required dyno testing to make the claims that they did. Any contrary published specs would then be 'hearsay'...
It's all pretty straight forward really. But I can see there is much need for clarification for many Dawgs. I just wish we could get the info to all Dawgs who are wonderin...
Thanks, Jim J...
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Post by smeagol on Mar 8, 2007 14:07:21 GMT -5
Just a short note, the 2007 Burgman 400 now has a new motor with a true 400 cc's.
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Post by johnnyscoots on Mar 8, 2007 15:42:26 GMT -5
Not to mention dual front discs, and the 4 valve head, larger underseat storage (62 liters vs. 57), different gauge cluster...
I need to find that $5900 I left lying around somewhere... ;D
John
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Post by scootindan on Mar 10, 2007 9:13:26 GMT -5
Just to add a bit more info...  "And the 257cc CVT engine will also have rear disc brakes over the drum brakes found in the 244cc CVT engine."The classic 244cc CF Moto (Honda Helix clone) engine has drum brakes but scooter manufacturers/importers can also order it with disk brakes. My Baron 250-PM has rear disk brakes. Thanks for providing lots of good info for new buyers. |
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Post by Jacine on Mar 10, 2007 14:16:52 GMT -5
Some corrections on the cfmoto 250s. Firstly CFmoto makes 4 250cc engines designated as 172mm, 172mmA, 172mmB, 172mmc. The last two have reverse and neutral gears similar to the hondamatics neutral at the time. The displacement of all these engines is 244cc. These engines will accept a rear 15 inch wheel, as on the V3, and V5. The engines are rated at 18hp but this is at the output and is not brake hp at the wheel. The loss of hp is variable per manufacturer and per machine and in some cases can be 4 - 5 hp which is significant. Tire pressure affects bhp as well as friction from bearings, brakes, weight etc.
Both the V3 and V5 CFmotos have disk brakes as well as several of the other lines.
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Post by cloudaz on Mar 11, 2007 0:12:50 GMT -5
Just wondering, were can I get a a 75mm kit for my Bandit UC250Z? more power!
Wendell
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Post by Aaron on Mar 11, 2007 0:34:50 GMT -5
Wendell E-mail Jim Sales@Bandit-Motorsports.com he has done a few mods to his personal UC250Z. Don't know about a cylinder kit but he may have some tips to improve performance other than the bigger cylinder.
Aaron
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Post by banditms on Mar 12, 2007 0:28:50 GMT -5
ScootinDan - You are correct, my bad! I was thinking with only a CF Moto Fashion (Helix clone) mind set. The CF 172MM 244cc CVT engine can and does have disc brakes on other scooter applications... Jacine - Your post left me a little confused. The available engines as I see them are the... CF 172MM - 244cc CVT engine for scooters - the original cloned design... CF 172MM-A - 244cc CVT engine with an extended swingarm for larger wheeled (motorcycles) applications... CF 172MM-B/C - 244cc CVT engines with Hi/Lo/N/R gear boxes for ATV and go-kart applications... Also, my fax'd and phoned spec information on HP for the 244cc CVT engines is 16.75 max... from Charles Ni, Export Mgr, CF Moto. The information on the website indicates max power on the 172MM's models is '18Ps'... whatever that is. Of course, I could still be wrong about all of this... ( - ; Wendell - I ordered some 290 kits from my supplier and will get them and install one on my UC-250. I won't sell them until I know what they does. I also have 14" and 16" wheels coming so that I can go to a 22" overall front tire, plus a 130/70 in the rear. Other things that we are experimenting with on the UC-250 are HotShot CDI's & Coils, Iridium plugs, EFI units and stronger windshields. As things develop heading into this season, I will post available performance upgrades on our website... www.bandit-motorsports.comThanks, Jim J... |
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Post by mgreenfield on Mar 29, 2007 14:14:15 GMT -5
JimJ's explanation should get a sticky to keep it at the top of the forum. How about it Dawg??
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Post by knorrtech on Apr 21, 2007 20:38:17 GMT -5
Best information I have seen regarding 250cc Chinese Motors, this has been my guide to finding inormation and querying for my bike. Nice job --
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Post by monty57 on Apr 24, 2007 20:36:58 GMT -5
From all this info it seems there are only a few engines being used by "all" manufacturers. Which make me wonder how many companies building scooter there actually are. It seems for instance that my Roadrunner 250 TLX looks like a Tank, Roketa, Viva and many others. I drove a Tank before I purchased the RR and the Tank had more vibration and more rattles even though I test drove it a "brick and mortar" dealership that had assembled it. So this leads to believe there is some difference but since the bodies are identical who is actually making all these different units. One company? or a Company with several branches like GM (Chevy, Pontiac, GMC, etc) or if there several different companies and one body molder? My title says the manufacturer is Bashan Motorcycle Manufacturing Co Ltd of Chongqing Astronautic Bashan Motorcycle Manufacturing Co Ltd . I wonder how many other titles say the same thing? Anybody have clue?  |
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Post by banditms on Apr 25, 2007 0:38:18 GMT -5
Monty57,
Yes, there are only a couple of suppliers of 250cc engines for all of the factories in China that want to utilize them. At last count about 2 years ago, there were approx 2,800 factories building scooters, cycles, ATVs and such...
The way it works as that there are several specialized OEM suppliers ie. there are 5-10 companies that specialize in forks or shocks, some that build millions of handlebar sets per year, several that build tons of seats for all those factories. There are some factories that build their own frames, engines and plastic body panels... and then also have to buy frames, engines and plastic body panels for certtain models that they assemble.
There are very few companies that make all of the component parts on their own for all of the scooter models that they sell. I know of none although I do know of larger factories that do their own engine building all the way down to the part casting and machining level.
In other words, it's all wide open. Any of those factories can be utilizing component parts from any of a multitude of OEM parts suppliers. And then there's the build factor... some factories take 2 mins to build your scooter. Some factories take 4-5 mins to build an identical scooter model. Any ideas as to why there is a difference? The missing vacuum line on caniscream's Roketa is a good example... ( - ;
Hope that's clear as mud and you don't need any more info... cause I don't think I could explain it again the same...
Thanks, Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports
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Post by monty57 on Apr 25, 2007 8:10:52 GMT -5
That does help, but I think it really makes this "shot in dark" purchase. It seems that many people purchase these expecting to get Yamaha, Suzuki or Honda quality and I don't care what your labor rate is at the price these units are sold for on the US market and considering what shipping costs alone are, that is just not possible. With that in mind it is still very difficult to gain a lot of pre-purchase knowledge about these units. I read many adds and I found what I believe to be exaggerations to out right lies. Many claim to have great follow-up service and and a large stock of parts but there is really no way to prove this without a visit. As for purchasing from a storefront, the two I visited did not impress me. Both were Tank dealers and all three units that I viewed or drove had problems that could have been solved during assembly and all appeared to have been put together poorly and obviously not checked very carefully before placing them on the showroom floor.
I have not been disappointed with either of my scooters but I did not have great expectations and have been willing to tinker and tweak to get the most out of them. From reading many of the posts, I believe many people expect too much, have little or no mechanical ability or have possibly abused the units expecting better performance then these units are capable of providing.
I believe we need more information from dealer like yourself and others that have taken the time to learn and support their products. I have read most of your posts with interest and look forward to others. I found your units to be very good looking and I like the larger engine. Unfortunately I did not find your website until I had receive the Roadrunner. Once again I have been happy with the unit, but I do see things about yours that I like better. Maybe in the future............
I also would like to try add posts in the future from a consumers view point with my experiences, problems, solutions and successes. Unfortunately, my wife and boss expect me to devote a serious amount of time to this thing we call "making a living" so my time is limited.
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Post by swakk on May 9, 2007 16:35:58 GMT -5
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Post by aristide1 on May 20, 2007 19:15:24 GMT -5
Jim J. I'm curious now, where does the Yamaha 250cc Morphous engine come from. That scooter costs as much as a Kawasaki Vulcan 500.  To sum up what Monty 57 said I think you are up to your eyebrows not necessarily in corrupt competition, but in the kind of start up businesses that think scooters are going to be a quick and easy buck, with lots of emphasis on the e-a-s-y part. The quick, well for some it's simply never quick enough. I think the crooks and the ignorant is some ways will make your job hard, when people simply and totally turn off to the idea of scooters. The way it should make your business easier is by word of mouth positive talk of what you do. I practice courtesy, I stick out like the world's biggest sore thumb. ;D Extra points for listing seat heights on your web site. Double bonus points for being the first web site to allow searches by seat height. Thanks again. |
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Post by WarrenS on May 20, 2007 23:04:02 GMT -5
The engine is the same as the 400 Majesty with a smaller bore. It has double overhead cams with 4 valves, fuel injection, and a gear driven counterbalancer. It is very smooth.
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Post by simsim44 on May 26, 2007 12:29:50 GMT -5
Hat's off to you Jim , Heck of a post. I have the 257cc, and have been looking, for quite some time, for information pertaining to the differences of the two,as a result I found myself here, and I'm thankful. Very informative. Although I am not a scooter owner, at present, I do own a 257cc, It has occurred to me that the application of this engine is found mostly in scooters. Jim, I have many questions, and I believe you have the answers, without getting off topic, thanks for the post. I'd also like to thank swakk for his link, very helpful. |
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Post by scooterphil on May 29, 2007 6:58:36 GMT -5
Hello,
I'm considering purchasing a Bandit 150, 260, or Roketa Bali 250. Basically, from what I've read, I'm a lot more comfortable with the Bandits in terms of quality. Even so, the Bandit 260 is a bit more than what is in my budget. I might make the stretch, but it will be a difficult sell to my wife. I could go with a Bandit 150 with a performance upgrade. Will go with the US150 with the performance upgrade if I choose this option. I really want a 250cc, which is why I'm also considering the Roketa Bali 250, The Roketa is nearly $1000 less when shipping is taken into account. Does anyone have any suggestions about who to go to should I choose to by the Roketa? Does anyone know how fast the Bandit 150s can really go, both with and without the performance upgrade? Basically, I'm trying to find a decent scooter that will easily hit 60 MPH for under $2000 (after shipping). Any feedback, suggestions, or recommendations will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks. Phil
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dobie
New Puppy Dawg
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Post by dobie on Jun 1, 2007 19:48:32 GMT -5
As you can see I am new to this forum but have found it to be very informative.  I have a new Linhai Power max 260, I have 180 miles on it now and I am having fun. The last time I rode a bike was 20yrs ago. The operating book is a little short on information pertaining to the type of transmission oil to use. Does anyone have a recommendation, all it says is 250cc gear oil. This scooter came with 12" tires. I bought it from Scooterville in Kema,Tx. the importer is BMI out of Houston. |
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Post by Andi on Jun 10, 2007 11:06:32 GMT -5
I found a year 2000 scooter magazine I purchased in Germany (my last visit there) and thought this was interesting: The following Scooters all used the 250cc Yamaha Majesty powerplant, which is what Linhai  cloned  the 257cc from: Aprilia Leonardo 250 (320 lbs dry weight)  Benelli Velvet 250 (285 lbs dry weight)   Italjet Millennium/Jupiter 250 (Maxiscoot) Malaguti Madison 250 (345 lbs dry weight, Maxiscoot) MBK Skyliner 250 (which actually is a re-badged Yamaha Majesty) Renault: Kouranos 250 (Maxiscoot) The reason for this apparently is the exceptional long term test reviews this engine enjoys. I guess Linhai is on to something, hope they were able to clone the quality and durability. Well ... here's hoping  for my Race 250 (257cc, 275  lbs dry weight)    BTW, also found that the Piaggio X9 250 (355 lbs dry weight, Maxiscoot) used the Honda Foresight (Reflex in the US) 250 engine and interestingly enough its listed with a 14" front and 13" rear (not 10") wheel   Andi |
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