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Post by rockynv on May 1, 2012 11:47:14 GMT -5
My Aprilia Sport City 250 only cost a few hundred more than a Chinese 250 which is nowhere close to $5,000 actualy thousands less than that. Only a few of the Aprilia 200cc and lower bikes are assembled in China using a mix of non-critical parts (engine/cvt assemblies come from Piaggio) however the metalurgy, design and assembly is held to a very high standard to the point that those Chinese manufacturers are raising the quiality of their regular products.
No matter how good a PDI you do that does not counteract the soft valve seats sinking into the lower quality head castings, cheaper laquer on the windings of the stator, starter and other electrical coil elements, less durable switches, more easily sun faded body parts and instrument clusters and such.
They are what they are and you can't get too emotional about it. At close to 60 I have learned that with everything you end up paying the full cost eventually and if you try to cheat paying up front it usually ends up costing you a lot more in the long run.
I am a former plant/mill/heavy machine/fork lift/tool crib mechinic who majored in mechanical design having wrenched for almost 50 years and it is from that background that I view these things.
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Post by larrym on May 1, 2012 13:15:47 GMT -5
My china bike has cost me nothing extra due to a good and I might add free PDI . I do have the skills and I could tear the engine down if needed. When you buy the expensive scooter you are buying the warrenty and the name but you are still getting 75 % of it from China and don't even realise it. And your dealer and the manufacturer are laughing all the way to the bank with you $5000.00 but hey they do say thank you. If a person has the skill the labor is free and the parts are cheap, if you even need them. But I go farther and say that a China bike can be just as trouble free as your $5000.00 got the good name scooter. Ten million scooter riders in China can't be wrong! You don't have to keep up with the Jones's just be smarter. yep your china bike is just as good and reliable ,, whatever helps u sleep at nite , how may years and how many miles on it , how many valve adjustments? me 3 years 5,000 miles no valve adjustments , change oil , gas and go thats what i paid for , not a toy or a hobby
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Post by leo on May 1, 2012 14:32:26 GMT -5
. . . gas and go thats what i paid for , not a toy or a hobby if i knew what i know now about my bike i could've had the very same thing from the get go. my chinese bike was a learning experience for me, one that i will never forget. the only problem i face now is getting the quality countershaft bearings i need. they are definitely available, i was told they were. nobody wants to help me get them for some reason. the only thing i can figure is i tell them they are for a chinese bike. i was told on 4-4-2012 that the bearings were available, they would cost 26 bucks for 2 of them, and i could pay for them when i picked them up. a week later i called about the bearings and they essentially told me "don't call us, we'll call you". here it is almost a month later and i STILL haven't heard anything. i get this kind of treatment almost everywhere i go to get help with my bike. so you see, i HAD to learn how to fix it, and further more with parts that usually wasn't meant to be used on a bike. it really burns me up to know these bearings are available but they are being withheld, and for what, it's a chinese bike? i went to a small engine repair shop, a large one, and asked for a manual shutoff valve for my bike. check this line out: "we don't sell parts for chinese scooters" this is your name brand BS for you.
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Post by texas on May 1, 2012 17:18:57 GMT -5
Yes they are not hard to work on. If you worked on your schwinn when you were young you can fix a scooter. Its not rocket science. If you believe they hold a higher standard for your scooter I got a bridge I want to sell you. lol Thier hype is self serving
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Post by texas on May 1, 2012 17:23:58 GMT -5
And my bike is one year old with four thousand miles, oil changes and gas. No problems !
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Post by cliftonc on May 1, 2012 17:24:02 GMT -5
There should be data for the bearings, sometimes on the edge of the cage itself. Go to the Motion Industries website and search by dimensions.
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on May 1, 2012 19:21:51 GMT -5
Yes they are not hard to work on. If you worked on your schwinn when you were young you can fix a scooter. Its not rocket science. If you believe they hold a higher standard for your scooter I got a bridge I want to sell you. lol Thier hype is self serving well, that's a bold statement the....bold'd. and I think thats what makes some newbs read posts like it and think "oh, its all the same and i can fix it. its like working on a bicycle!" and it is not. and when they find that out they come to forums like this and others and.....hate and a "higher standard?" well, let's let the web lurker decide! so, how much you want for that bridge, texas? ;D i repeat....I LIKE INTERNET SCOOTERS. but, come now....
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on May 1, 2012 19:39:36 GMT -5
man, i am starting to hate this thread. it is entering dead horse territory. wonder if newbies get the picture or if they still think all small motorcycles are essentially the same and as easy as a skateboard to fix and keep running?
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Post by larrym on May 1, 2012 20:51:15 GMT -5
Yes they are not hard to work on. If you worked on your schwinn when you were young you can fix a scooter. Its not rocket science. If you believe they hold a higher standard for your scooter I got a bridge I want to sell you. lol Thier hype is self serving i dont have to fix my scooter it does not break ,, so there u go..
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Post by larrym on May 1, 2012 20:56:00 GMT -5
some people here r funny they tout their china scoots as great , just do a full pdi , change the wires the plug and various other things and then say they r as good as name brands,, if i told u that u coud get a tv for half the price of a name brand but when it comes u r going to have 2 open it up change the wires , check all solder points and maybe change a capacitor or 2 , then u will have to open it up and adjust it every few months to keep it working and its gunna break down alot but its easy to fix and parts are cheap ,, would u say wow what a great deal??
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Post by rockynv on May 2, 2012 4:47:35 GMT -5
Remember we have many different groups of riders here. I am in the 10,000 + miles per year group. My Lance was good until about 4,000 miles and then the problems with quality/reliability really began to show. To me until they catch up a bit more the Chinese scooter is not for those that put 1,000 miles or more per month on. That would require 2 oil changes a month on a GY6 150 (24 per year) instead of the 2 oil changes per year required by my current bike. You could buy one that costs almost as much as a Italian or Japanese bike but you will still not be at the same level of performance and quality although much much closer than on a run of the mill clone.
My GY6 150 was great fun but not a good fit for my type of usage.
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Post by texas on May 2, 2012 7:54:26 GMT -5
Its obvious if you want to see the Chinese bike haters say something postive about one! These bikes work just fine and save you a lot of money.
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Post by spandi on May 2, 2012 11:11:37 GMT -5
. . . gas and go thats what i paid for , not a toy or a hobby if i knew what i know now about my bike i could've had the very same thing from the get go. my chinese bike was a learning experience for me, one that i will never forget. the only problem i face now is getting the quality countershaft bearings i need. they are definitely available, i was told they were. nobody wants to help me get them for some reason. the only thing i can figure is i tell them they are for a chinese bike. i was told on 4-4-2012 that the bearings were available, they would cost 26 bucks for 2 of them, and i could pay for them when i picked them up. a week later i called about the bearings and they essentially told me "don't call us, we'll call you". here it is almost a month later and i STILL haven't heard anything. i get this kind of treatment almost everywhere i go to get help with my bike. so you see, i HAD to learn how to fix it, and further more with parts that usually wasn't meant to be used on a bike. it really burns me up to know these bearings are available but they are being withheld, and for what, it's a chinese bike? i went to a small engine repair shop, a large one, and asked for a manual shutoff valve for my bike. check this line out: "we don't sell parts for chinese scooters" this is your name brand BS for you. Leo you can find bearing suppliers online, and as far as it being for a Chinese bike....JUST DON"T TELL THEM!
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Post by texas on May 2, 2012 16:18:59 GMT -5
Yeah, you know how those purest are ! lol
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Post by spandi on May 2, 2012 17:43:29 GMT -5
Maybe one of the reasons they hate the Chinese so much is because they (the Chinese) will sell you an exhaust unit for $150 rather than the ripoff price of $450.
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Post by spandi on May 2, 2012 17:58:52 GMT -5
Yeah, you know how those purest are ! lol While I would agree with the assertion that "name brand" scoots are better, it is a matter to what degree. I'll say 15-20% better, no more than that. Think about it, if the Chinese can build something as complex as a motor scooter in the first place they are 99% of the way there, simply improve the fit and finish and Japan's motorcycle industry will go the way of the British and American at the beginning of the 1960's.
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Post by larrym on May 2, 2012 18:24:32 GMT -5
more like 80-85% better ,, stop kidding yourself ,,,, seems like no one had an answer for this post.......some people here r funny they tout their china scoots as great , just do a full pdi , change the wires the plug and various other things and then say they r as good as name brands,, if i told u that u coud get a tv for half the price of a name brand but when it comes u r going to have 2 open it up change the wires , check all solder points and maybe change a capacitor or 2 , then u will have to open it up and adjust it every few months to keep it working and its gunna break down alot but its easy to fix and parts are cheap ,, would u say wow what a great deal?? Read more: scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=48673&page=5#ixzz1tl2Xvict
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Post by spandi on May 2, 2012 18:46:23 GMT -5
more like 80-85% better ,, stop kidding yourself ,,,, seems like no one had an answer for this post.......some people here r funny they tout their china scoots as great , just do a full pdi , change the wires the plug and various other things and then say they r as good as name brands,, if i told u that u coud get a tv for half the price of a name brand but when it comes u r going to have 2 open it up change the wires , check all solder points and maybe change a capacitor or 2 , then u will have to open it up and adjust it every few months to keep it working and its gunna break down alot but its easy to fix and parts are cheap ,, would u say wow what a great deal?? Read more: scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=48673&page=5#ixzz1tl2XvictReally?...80-85% better? (is Kymco having a two-for-one sale?)
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Post by leo on May 2, 2012 19:02:12 GMT -5
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Post by rockynv on May 2, 2012 19:04:54 GMT -5
We are not talking about blood relatives and only material things here right? Every thing here boils down to what risks you can and can't afford to take along with whether your personal finances allow you to go with your preferred choice or not.
Some Chineses bikes are indeed Ok while others from the same factory may not be good at all and while the same holds true of Aprila, Piaggio, Yamaha and the other name brands most will provide you better and more immediate recourse in the form of full warranty service or a replacement bike while with many if not most Chinese bikes you may get parts only and sometimes not even that.
If you can afford a name brand bike and your lifes situation does not allow for extended down time or extensive personal time spent on repairs then indeed get the name brand bike. Shop around and you will find new ones selling for around $2,000 even at local full service dealers.
I enjoyed both my Lance and Aprilia and if my life situation allowed for it I would have kept the Lance Vintage for my wife or daugters. Even though the Lance was very troublesome after 4,000 miles I did bring it to better than new running condition by repairing along with upgrading the failed parts such as head, transmission bearings, variator, clutch, coil, cdi and so on but it was still an aircooled bike with no oil filtration that would not have been a good fit for the speeds and length of my daily commute and travels however it would have been nice for leisurely rides on the weekends etc with other family members. Unfortunately it would have not seen enough regular use to stay strouble free since no other family member wanted to ride it so I ended up trading it in on a bike that was a better fit for me.
It was just a very practical decision that I had to make. Not very dramatic and a bit boaring I know.
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Post by larrym on May 2, 2012 19:44:13 GMT -5
more like 80-85% better ,, stop kidding yourself ,,,, seems like no one had an answer for this post.......some people here r funny they tout their china scoots as great , just do a full pdi , change the wires the plug and various other things and then say they r as good as name brands,, if i told u that u coud get a tv for half the price of a name brand but when it comes u r going to have 2 open it up change the wires , check all solder points and maybe change a capacitor or 2 , then u will have to open it up and adjust it every few months to keep it working and its gunna break down alot but its easy to fix and parts are cheap ,, would u say wow what a great deal?? Read more: scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=48673&page=5#ixzz1tl2XvictReally?...80-85% better? (is Kymco having a two-for-one sale?) no they just last twice as long
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Post by spandi on May 2, 2012 20:15:01 GMT -5
Really?...80-85% better? (is Kymco having a two-for-one sale?) no they just last twice as long Are you sure it's not just their nose that's twice as long?
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Post by larrym on May 2, 2012 20:30:09 GMT -5
whatever helps u sleep dude
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Post by spandi on May 2, 2012 20:43:29 GMT -5
whatever helps u sleep dude Actually I just switch on the recording of my Chinese scoot idling and......ZZZZZZZ
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poop
New Puppy Dawg
Posts: 3
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Post by poop on May 2, 2012 21:58:50 GMT -5
I don't see how spending money and hours of strenous maintainance work on a Chinese scooter beats the ease-of-maintainance of Japanese or Thai or Italian-made scooters. One would think that if Chinese companies were thourouh and thoughtful, they would make stronger machines. But then again, labor is cheap in China, so I suppose the work is cheap as well... Why would anyone prefer work over ease? Why would anyone prefer to support Chinese-made products? I just don't get it...
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Post by larrym on May 2, 2012 22:15:49 GMT -5
I don't see how spending money and hours of strenous maintainance work on a Chinese scooter beats the ease-of-maintainance of Japanese or Thai or Italian-made scooters. One would think that if Chinese companies were thourouh and thoughtful, they would make stronger machines. But then again, labor is cheap in China, so I suppose the work is cheap as well... Why would anyone prefer work over ease? Why would anyone prefer to support Chinese-made products? I just don't get it... exactly what i say and none of them has answered this.....if i told u that u coud get a tv for half the price of a name brand but when it comes u r going to have 2 open it up change the wires , check all solder points and maybe change a capacitor or 2 , then u will have to open it up and adjust it every few months to keep it working and its gunna break down alot but its easy to fix and parts are cheap ,, would u say wow what a great deal?? Read more: scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=48673&page=5#ixzz1tlybG1Wt
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on May 2, 2012 22:27:26 GMT -5
Yeah, you know how those purest are ! lol While I would agree with the assertion that "name brand" scoots are better, it is a matter to what degree. I'll say 15-20% better, no more than that. Think about it, if the Chinese can build something as complex as a motor scooter in the first place they are 99% of the way there, simply improve fit and finish and Japans motorcycle industry will go the way of the British and American at the beginning of the 1960's. i would love this, but they have no motive to do it. i wish they would. but if they build better they will charge more. even if they don't have too. just like the bigger names. they want to make as much profit as possible. and that is good. the fact they can get anything to us for under $1000 is a miracle as is. or at least a small one. i mean how much do the wheels and tires cost alone if WE ordered them? and then the rest of the scooter from the brakes to the engine to the battery and the frame and suspension and CVT and....all of it! for $1000 to our door and everyone has made money on the deal along the way? the real cost must be $300 to build, most likely. how do you make a 150cc scoot for $300 and still make profit? or even $500. idk? but I doubt it cost even $500 to manufacture. the chinese build for the rest of the world, and the home market. i doubt they will build for the west as the higher standards will put them in SYM / Kymco territory so far as pricing on their 125's and 150's....made in China so far as the market for myself, i want the best, cheapest scooters i can buy. i really am a bargain shopper. ! These bikes work just fine and save you a lot of money. you are correct to some extent. and brands like Vespa come with their own issues and can be pricey to maintain if shop serviced but i look at it as i do cars. a BMW is not a GM car. a $15,000 Chevy Cruze will be more reliable and cost less to maintain then a $50,000 BMW. but no one would ever say the BMW is not a much better car that will most likely be around much longer then the Cruze. but a scooter doesn't cost $50,000. a scooter, even a Vespa, is pretty cheap. $4500 is pretty cheap for a leftover 250 Super like the one in the video i posted. and it will not fall apart or fail before 50,000+m, chances are. you will spend money maintaining it and repairs, as well. but the buy in was only $5000 and its a finely crafted machine that will last for as long as a person wants. and maintain resale. so, is a bit more really much to ask of a buyer if its this, the latest from China with EFI which is $3000 shipped: or this, which is around $400OTD more for a leftover 2009 with full warranty: it's not like internet scooters are free. they cost less, but with a dealer nearby and some knowledge of the marketplace....man, even brand name scoots are just languishing on the docks and ready to be sold at fire sale prices. is that Aprillia more valuable to a buyer if even $1500 more then a 250cc internet scooter? i think so. but it might just be a few hundred more, as you can see. many would call that a "no brainer" choice. folks just need to understand they have one the chinese have to compete on price, we know that. but the savvy shopper knows they are increasingly getting little wriggle room there, too. throw in iffy quality, and the value goes away for many buyers a friend of mine got this Kymco for $3629OTD. the dealer said "can't take less then $4400," so my boy left his card and said "call me if you drop the price to under $4,000, but I have $3500 cash right now if we're close." no can do, they said. 3 days later, and what do you know! gotta make room for "new stock", so he gets a call saying they can go $3850OTD and he says he has $3600, RIGHT NOW. they take it and give him a "new" 2010 with a two year unlimited mile warranty for around $600 to $800 more then the "new" internet scooter above i am sure the internet scooter is a fine one, but people have got to understand.....the realities of what "brand names" ask for and what a person can actually get one for with a bit of diligence can be sobering. and a good buy deals like this are pretty easy to come by if you have a dealer nearby. if not, anyone needs to get what they can get. but otherwise a little hustle at a dealership can pay off imo. even if you pay a bit more and wait for the right time to strike!
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Post by texas on May 3, 2012 0:49:42 GMT -5
Right, buy youself a warrenty. no shame in that and you may never need it. I know i have not needed one my China bike ,runs like a champ. Oh and your tv set , have you ever heard of Vizio? Amercias number #1 selling tv. yep made in China! I have three of them and I did not do a PDI on any of them! That Chinese brand came up and took over the market so I guess it could happen. or maybe that what the purest fear, well if it helps them sleep.
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Post by rockynv on May 3, 2012 4:46:34 GMT -5
I see a good number of Visios in the return line at the local stores also for quality problems however with Vizio your able to purchase locally and get an exchange at the place of purchase with plenty of local service options. The warranty covers parts and labor too. To me Toshiba represents a better value for the level of quality and features. So far I have only had 2 Toshiba products die an early death one died in a fire and the other was drowned.
Unfortunately most Chinese scooters are not Visio's.
That name brand companies are having products made in China does not make all Chinese products good quality products. An Aprilia scooter assembled in China under Aprilia's supervision and using hard parts from their own Aprilia supply line is going to be a good measure better then the run of the mill from the same factory even though that factories run of the mill will now most likely be better than the run of the mill from the others. I have personally seen both the Aprilia made in China and the run of the mill from the Chinese factory they use and those Chinese GY6 bikes really do stand out as better quality. The local shop that sells them is very happy with the bikes and reports they have much fewer issues with them compared to other Chinese brands. Those scooters are approaching the quality of bikes from Korea or Taiwan although still not quite 100% there.
On the street locally I can get the Aprila 250 for $2,999 with a full year unlimited mileage parts and labor warranty with a local factory trained mechanic doing all the reparis for free or a Chinese 250 for $2,599 with a 90 day power train warranty and 1 year warranty on the rest of the bike that covers only parts so it is a no brainer get the Aprilia. After the warranty on the Aprilia is over you are stuck with a bike that has a service interval of 6,000 miles between oil changes and 12,000 miles between checks for valve adjustments and belts instead of every 500 to 1,000 miles for most services. It is more than the warranty alone and for those that ride daily putting on 1,000 plus miles a month a bike that requires an oil change every 500 miles is really not very practical. I look at it this way to be practicle the vehicle you use on public streets should require no more that 4 oil changes per year with 2 being preferrable. When you go over that what you are riding is not a very practical match for your usage.
I am not talking love or hate here only on what is practical which will be very different for many people depending on their own personal needs and usage. It is a good thing that we have choices available to fit everybodys personal situation.
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Post by leo on May 3, 2012 6:24:48 GMT -5
exactly what i say and none of them has answered this.....if i told u that u coud get a tv for half the price of a name brand but when it comes u r going to have 2 open it up change the wires , check all solder points and maybe change a capacitor or 2 , then u will have to open it up and adjust it every few months to keep it working and its gunna break down alot but its easy to fix and parts are cheap ,, would u say wow what a great deal?? i haven't answered it because it doesn't describe chinese bikes very well. i know this, even given the problems with my chinese ride i will certainly buy another for the price i paid for mine. no question. maybe you can explain why a japanese bearing failed in my final drive instead of all the "crappy chinese" bearings that are on my bike.
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