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Post by larry001964 on Aug 4, 2012 19:54:24 GMT -5
I Thank every one for your suggestions, It is greatly appreciated :-)
I believe i have what may be the solution... Honestly I didn't want to do a lot of custom work, I really wanted something others could duplicate easy from off the shelf parts.. But now that Fawkes is a daily driver My experimentation time is very limited... I do hope that if someone else takes on a project like this they post what they do....
I have fixed Fawkes starting problem and he now starts fine off one battery, Turned out to be a CDI going bad.... In high humidity or Low temps ( below 70 ) he was very hard to get started.. The CDI did resolve that and he's starting very well so I have ditched the second battery... Just need to update my signature.
What I'm building now in theory should lock the ramp plate to the spinal, so both faces of the variator should be doing the pulling on the belt, hopefully reducing belt slippage and heat, In addition, since my cvt cover was already busted at the kick start.
I have cut a hole in the CVT over the drive face. I em adding a small metal squirrel cage fan, the type you see in blowers to the end of the spinal directly touching the drive face. So the moving air by the fan will dissipate the heat, I will be covering the hole with a forward facing air scoop over the CVT variator fan hole. I also cut a hole over my clutch, the theory is the air will enter via the variator fan and out the clutch hole.
I will take pictures of this mod and its pretty radical.. I em building fast on this because it is a daily driver, and im working 7 days a week... It may not be pretty for a while but im hoping it will work...
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Post by kixome on Aug 4, 2012 22:00:40 GMT -5
I too had cracked China pistons but so far Air Sal 82cc BBK seems to be a winner . I was thinking about making my lil scooter a sleeper that can outrun a 150 . I have looked all over to try to find out how much more displacement the stroker crank adds . Longer stroke means more torque . I think you may need to add extra base gasket or shim for clearance issue so do homework prior to build . I have not used NCY parts but I read they are way better than China ones . I could not find a BBK with a forged piston and wondered if a XR80 piston would fit since www.wiseco.com makes forged billet pistons but 130.00 yikes Wiseco is terrible please stay away from them. I have had problems with crank runout, oval pistons, and rings that failed within hours. What do they give me when that happens? Like some dealers they give me a big one in the rear and replace nothing. I gave them up about 2 years ago. |
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Post by millsc on Aug 4, 2012 22:46:12 GMT -5
larry youve built a monster scoot keep trying gives us faith that we can do the same much respect
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Post by psychedelicode on Aug 7, 2012 10:59:30 GMT -5
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 8, 2012 18:21:14 GMT -5
Ohhh my goodness guys and gals, You would not believe what I noticed today.... I think I can explain why Fawkes runs so hot and melts plastics... You got to see this to understand....  One on the left is a standard fan, Notice what way the fins are pointing... this fan sucks air in and blows it across the engine and out the bottom.... Now notice the Hoca ( whats on Fawkes ) see what way the fins on the fan are pointing ? this one sucks from the small opening at the bottom of the engine where the head is.. And the hot air from the road... And out the fan opening... Exactly opposite the standard... Near the road where air temps are the hottest is where the Hoca Fan intakes air..... No wonder im having so much trouble.. |
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Post by psychedelicode on Aug 8, 2012 19:10:57 GMT -5
You should also look at the overall diameter of the HOCA vs stock. There are numerous fans on the market that reduce the diameter of the fan in order to create less resistance and thereby increasing power (in theory). I have heard of a few people locally who have had issues with smaller diameter "performance" fans overheating.
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 8, 2012 20:33:18 GMT -5
You should also look at the overall diameter of the HOCA vs stock. There are numerous fans on the market that reduce the diameter of the fan in order to create less resistance and thereby increasing power (in theory). I have heard of a few people locally who have had issues with smaller diameter "performance" fans overheating. I looked all over for my stock fan, but could not find it.... well I was going to put in an order for more parts tomorrow, I guess ill be including a stock fan...... No wonder ive had heat troubles |
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Post by dude on Aug 8, 2012 22:37:17 GMT -5
Well today i snapped my Gates Powerlink belt after 1600 miles of driving. Cant begin to express my fustration. Im getting tired of so many custom repairs.. If i had access to a machine shop all the time, it might be different. What im thinking now is keeping the stroker but downgrading the jug and piston to a 72. Dont know if i can use the 50 mm head or not but i really need to lower the power so i can use standard qmb parts. And not tear them up I am in the same ballpark as you on the 72cc with the stroker crank (except stock 69mm vavle head). I waiting on my crank, forgot to order seals. I have a 72 cc kit and other perf. parts. Building a VIP. I like to try a 4.00 tire with stock gears. |
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Post by psychedelicode on Aug 14, 2012 15:31:00 GMT -5
larry, On my scoot the stock fan OD is 111mm, the ID of the vanes (not the ring that joins them) is 50mm.
the vanes have a clockwise twist.
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 14, 2012 18:47:56 GMT -5
Well I dropped the Unifilter and replaced that with an modified stock airbox, got rid of the Hoca cooling fan and went back to a stock one.. Replaced the drive belt with a Bando, and Fawkes is happy again.. Had a very hard time this morning keeping him under 40 going up hill... When that little guy is happy he really moves.. When I got to work my CVT was much cooler than before.. Not done yet with the mods to the CVT but when completed Fawkes should run mucn much cooler.... Just in time for Winter LOL I am in the same ballpark as you on the 72cc with the stroker crank (except stock 69mm vavle head). I waiting on my crank, forgot to order seals. I have a 72 cc kit and other perf. parts. Building a VIP. I like to try a 4.00 tire with stock gears. Using the stroker with a 72 cc kit sounds like a very interesting project. From my experience you will need to use a big bore head for the valves to clear the piston, but I look forward to seeing your postings on it's build.. larry, On my scoot the stock fan OD is 111mm, the ID of the vanes (not the ring that joins them) is 50mm. the vanes have a clockwise twist. The Hoca is 112 mm the fins are about the same. just reversed it sucks instead of blows LOL... Just needing more air to cool that engine in this warmer weather especially.. |
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Post by noday on Aug 14, 2012 18:54:21 GMT -5
way to go Larry
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 17, 2012 20:00:24 GMT -5
I thought long and hard about making this post... But decided to do so in the even that others thinking of building a stroker are aware of some of the nuances of the stroker..
One by one I'm working out the bugs, seems as i work them out Fawkes becomes better and better... No longer is he hard to start, no longer is he overheating, and as these problems are being solved his performance is getting better and better.. My problem occurred this morning going to work..
Fawkes himself runs very smooth, almost gliding over the road ( great for this older body LOL ). but in cross winds, or headwinds, Fawkes pushes so hard into these winds at times he feels like he wants to lift up. In a strong cross wind he can be difficult to hold straight.. I have driven motorcycles, minibikes, never have i experienced anything like this... And yes it can get a little scary.. Fawkes actually scared me this morning going to work. Had a cross wind he was doing about 45 and with oncoming traffic he felt as if he wanted to lift up... It didn't but the feeling was there.. I'm thinking the lightweight frame is the cause of this..
I've been riding bikes a long time, ridden in just about every weather condition known to man, never have I felt anything like this. At first I wondered if it was just me being paranoid in my older age but now I don't think so, any way i felt this was relevant to this thread so i decided to post it..
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Post by mainepeace on Aug 17, 2012 20:16:11 GMT -5
There is definitely alot more torque applied to the frame from teh swingarm than was originally designed. Try upgrading the shocks to stiffer ones, including the front. Should help with the "lifting". Aerodynamics is something you can't do much about.
I'm building up a Hoca 83cc cylinder/head and EFI on my new T3. I *might* consider a stroker crankshaft if you figure out all the issues.
Greg
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 17, 2012 20:34:20 GMT -5
There is definitely alot more torque applied to the frame from teh swingarm than was originally designed. Try upgrading the shocks to stiffer ones, including the front. Should help with the "lifting". Aerodynamics is something you can't do much about. I'm building up a Hoca 83cc cylinder/head and EFI on my new T3. I *might* consider a stroker crankshaft if you figure out all the issues. Greg Ohhh in the coming weeks ill be making a finial post on the mods to the CVT, this last one is pretty radical, and since my CVT cover was busted from before I decided to use it. But the mod in a nut shell is, I took off the kick starter, it was busted anyway, cut a large hole, and I'm installing a squirrel cage fan to the drive face of the variator.. Then further enhancing the airflow by putting a air scoop facing forward over the top of the fan... creating a ram air effect in addition to the squirrel cage fan.. The air will come in the ram scoop. and out the clutch opening.. The faster Fawkes goes the more cooling he will get.. At least in theory..Ill post picts, I'm still building it.. I'm also notching stroker and putting a 4 weld beads that fit into the notches on the ramp plate.. This should eliminate the drive face taking the entire load and spread the force over both belt faces.. Ill look into upgrading my shocks and front forks as soon as I get back from Philippines, until then Ill just drive it slower I guess.. But yea i think your right about the swing arm, and the road i was on this morning two out of three miles of it is all uphill... I call it the scooter killer, the has a hill fairly steep grade, and most 50's are making about 10 mph when they get to the end.. Fawkes will accelerate to 45 to 50 mph pretty easily going up it. |
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Post by noday on Aug 17, 2012 20:35:20 GMT -5
to both Larry and Greg
the answer is the JR100
a 100ccc bottom mount , gy6 variant from Kymco (not sold in the US), direct swap into the 50cc frame
51.8mm stroke, 50mm piston
easily overbore to 123CC
enjoy
ps: you will never get past the small small spline issues of the 139qmb drive face with high torque
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 17, 2012 20:58:47 GMT -5
to both Larry and Greg the answer is the JR100 a 100ccc bottom mount , gy6 variant from Kymco (not sold in the US), direct swap into the 50cc frame 51.8mm stroke, 50mm piston easily overbore to 123CC enjoy ps: you will never get past the small small spline issues of the 139qmb drive face with high torque Never, never, never say never Ne dis jamais jamais ( Styx ) ;D ;D ;D Watch me.. |
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Post by mainepeace on Aug 17, 2012 22:53:21 GMT -5
Well if the JR100 was never sold in the U.S. it may be a bit hard to get here. Not sure how to bring one over.
Greg
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 18, 2012 7:29:36 GMT -5
Im sure the EPA and the money it takes to get the engine approved is why its not here in the US. And until it is here. Its not the answer.
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Post by noday on Aug 18, 2012 7:51:28 GMT -5
you can find the engine in the US. I have one that I am rebuilding now. the base engine is sold in a kids ATV form in the US. it is used in the Kymco Mongoose 90, Kawi 90 and Arctic Cat 90. All made by Kymco. the ATV has a 47mm bore (89cc) and is close to bulletproof. In Canada, Europe and several other countries the scooter is sold as as the Sento 100. In the Taiwan domestic market there are numerous models with the 102cc engine (50mmx51.8mm) Kiwi 100, Easy 100, Easy 4U 100, JR 100. the ATVs and Easy 100 versions use a small spline crank, same spline size as the 139qmb. The JR100 version uses a different style crank with long and larger splines on the variator side, like a jog50 crank. here is a pic of the engine, CVT side EDIT: from a 2005 Kymco mongoose 90  here is a link to more pics of the engine components, both crank versions, case details, etc. s820.photobucket.com/albums/zz125/noneutral/kymco90/ |
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Post by noday on Aug 18, 2012 18:20:20 GMT -5
sorry for any errors I made above
the jr100 is a scoot model name. kymco does not mark engines with the same convention as China mainland engines
the jr100 engine was/is designed as a 102cc scooter engine, with engine & CVT components scaled to match
the jr100 scooter is not sold in the US, the engine is in the US & has been for years ( in ATVs)
EDIT ADDED
I think it is the crank style, more than just using the JR100 engine.
The small splined crank versions are marketed to women who tend to weigh about 100#s and are not known for abuse of the scooter.
The JR100 is a "sport version" of the same engine/scooter.
The jr100 crank is marked revision 4 by Kymco.
My guess, based on auto translated Chinese forum threads, is that the same problems that Larry has with the CVT were also present with heavy riders and hard usage.
and that this prompted the change of the variator side of the crank, to larger splines and adding a toothed back plate to the moving face of the variator
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 20, 2012 20:08:53 GMT -5
Well I'm beginning my CVT Mod, Here's a picture what will be the new cooling fan,  My current CVT cover, ( I know it's a bad pic sorry ) but it's all busted up already so it's perfect for this mod..  My Dremel set that i will be using.  I will be posting all my components and mods to show my modifications, I hope others find this useful.. |
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Post by dude on Aug 21, 2012 7:56:47 GMT -5
Are you sure your not adding a super charger and hooking it up to the carb? lol
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 26, 2012 17:13:32 GMT -5
Are you sure your not adding a super charger and hooking it up to the carb? lol You mean like this LOL     I'm building the cover shroud and scoop to fit over it now, will take about a week but this dramatically lowered the temps I'm dealing with... ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by rbrooks1 on Aug 26, 2012 18:12:33 GMT -5
DANG! Very nice...
What about rain/belt slipping from moisture?
Sorry if I missed it, I just skimmed over the last page or two.
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 26, 2012 18:33:03 GMT -5
Well so far, rain has not caused me any trouble, but we are in a drouth haven't had much rain, and the CVT was getting pretty hot so what little rain we did get didn't bother it. The sooner i get the cover shroud built and installed the better...
But now i wont be getting so hot i destroy my drive belts, finially the long distance driver I envisioned is coming into existence
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Post by rbrooks1 on Aug 26, 2012 19:19:48 GMT -5
Nice man, really good job. "Mad props" as they say these days  I was just wondering because I figured a forward facing air scoop would let some rain in there. |
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Post by millsc on Aug 26, 2012 20:38:06 GMT -5
Where you get that its badazz
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Post by larry001964 on Aug 26, 2012 20:52:20 GMT -5
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Post by millsc on Aug 26, 2012 21:08:58 GMT -5
Send link i want it
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Post by noday on Aug 27, 2012 1:18:49 GMT -5
I shake my head
why this crazy stuff ?
you will never fix belt slip by adding air or cooling, no matter what outrageous fan you use
the heat is a symptom & result of belt slip
fix the real problem
quit dikin around
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