EFI for 50cc-250cc Scooter! (UPDATES!!)

[zedooo]

oh what I bummer. and I just wanted to order the thing

[noday]

you can always just buy the new Yamaha Zuma 50F. about $2500. 3 valve head, water cooled & EFI.

www.motorcycle-usa.com/701/10245/Motorcycle-Article/Yamaha-Reveals-4-Stroke-Zuma-50F-Scooter.aspx

[mainepeace]

Yeah, but the Zuma is so damn UGLY!

And it's over 3x what I paid for this thing. 7x what I can get them for now.

Greg

[noday]

my post was tongue in cheek.

have you looked to see if you have a 6 pole stator ? if so perhaps a swap to a 8 will give a bit more in terms of 12V charging amps. need to match flywheel as well.

probably already mentioned, but converting your 12v side bulbs to leds will leave more amps to keep your battery up.

a full 12v lighting side conversion is possible. there are a few threads here and there on this.

edit: would also consider a different rectifier/voltage regulator.

[mainepeace]

I haven't checked but I'm sure it's a 6 pole. I will plan on doing lot of other modifications. At the moment I'm still evaluating the kit by itself, without any additional help. Personally I'm not concerned with undercharging issues as I can just charge the battery. It would be something else to require someone to replace their entire electrical system when installing this kit though.

NEW GAS READINGS

I went to the gas station this morning. It was busy and my favorite pump was taken just as I was pulling in. I didn't feel like waiting so I used another one. The pump shut off a bit earlier than my other pump normally does. It stopped at about .8 gal and it was about 1/2 inch below the metal "stop" in the filler neck that I use as a reference point, so it was *just* under the point where I fill to. I filled more gas but the auto-shutoff didn't kick in until it was at 1.083 gal, or well above the mark. Going from .8 to 1.0 gal is very fast, about 1/2 second so I didn't have much of a chance to stop sooner.

Calculating:

1.083 gal = 93.0 mpg
.8 gal = 128 mpg

So it's somewhere in between. It'll average out on the next tankful.

(the gas leaking from the fuel pump was significant enough to wet the entire CVT cover and drip down on the ground, so it could have been up to .1 gal or more)

Greg

[13lky2]

Never the less, it has gone from low 80's to 93-128ish is still a huge improvement with no other mods. I must have one for my 150... now to just convince the wife

[mainepeace]

Well 13, I'll say that on your 150 you shouldn't have any charging issues at all, from what I hear about the 150's charging systems. 50cc's are *just* below the threshold. Had to kick start her again today going home, after I had her on the charger last night. I have a 3A battery in there, so I'll probably put a 7A or even a 9A in there tomorrow. There's plenty of space under the floorpan, just not in the battery box itself.

Greg

[D-cat]

[13lky2]

Yar, from what I can tell, this came with an 8-pole stator and all the lights are already led except for the headlights. I still wouldn't mind going to an 11-pole for the added security plus I plan on running an oil cooling system with its own electric pump.

[mainepeace]

Hey, I have that same battery charger! I might take 2-3 small 3A batteries and wire them in parallel. Get some more juice going.

Greg

[mainepeace]

Ok, here's the latest info:

I just spoke with Matt from Ecotrons and the low power fuel pump is still far over the horizon.

I updated the fuel tables and a few more parameters and FIXED the cold start issue. Now it starts easily and on the first or second try. Hopefully most of the battery issues will go away. Time will tell.

The issue with the cold start was a parameter called VAL_tInjMin. This is the minimum pulse injector width. It was set for 1ms but it needed to be set for 2ms. Therefore, all the settings were wrong and not enough gas was being sent to the cylinder. After changing the setting the new code must be uploaded to the ECU (called "downloading" by the software).

The "learning" must also be reset. This is done by changing the parameter CW_NotLcAd.

1) Key-on
2) Change the "CW_NotLcAd" to 6 (binary coded),
3) Upload to ECU;
4) Key-off, wait 3s;
5) Key-on
6) Change the "CW_NotLcAd" to 0 (binary coded)
7) Upload to ECU.

FYI, I have confirmation that the kickstarter DOES work if you have a battery attached. The battery does not need to be fully charged, but it does need to power the ECU for the few seconds before the engine catches, and also as a place to store the charge from the stator. Theoretically, a capacitor could work as kicking it once or twice will charge the capacitor, then it will work on the second or third try to start the engine.

I have FINALLY installed the Ecotrons CDI. It was simple to install. Basically you tap into the same wires that the CDI uses, wire for wire.



The only difference is the crank sensor wire. The orange CDI wire is routed to the ECU via the CKP wire, and the return grey CDI_Ctrl wire is tied into the CDI.

There are two ground wires on the Ecotrons CDI. My CDI has only a single ground. The extra ground can be either tied in with the other ground wire, or grounded on the frame. I routed the ground wire to the ECU Ground (fuse) since it was right there.

First thoughts: My ride home, 2.1 miles, was a bit more fun! The timing advance currently is set to default, which is pretty mild. I did notice a minor difference in certain spots where the engine would bog a bit on certain parts of hills or curves. Now there feels to be a bit more power. It's not like a kick in the pants, but it is noticeable. I can advance the timing more if I choose. Right now the ECU is still in learning mode so it will get better.

It is possible to advance the timing a decent amount, perhaps up to 20 degrees, use 93 octane and get a decent power upgrade. I'll try that soon.

Greg

[mainepeace]

Jun 12, 2011 8:17:11 GMT -5 13lky2 said:

Yar, from what I can tell, this came with an 8-pole stator and all the lights are already led except for the headlights. I still wouldn't mind going to an 11-pole for the added security plus I plan on running an oil cooling system with its own electric pump.

You WON'T have the charging issue that I have had. It really WASN'T a huge charging issue, it was a cold start issue and I drained the battery from having to use the starter so much. It drains the battery quickly, even a brand new battery. I think the NET effect is a positive charge, but the distribution of that is that it is most draining at startup and shutdown, when I'm idling in the driveway, so the battery drains when I need it most.

Greg

[13lky2]

Good to know! Still on the fence about keeping or selling the 150cc. I need something with more torque/power to get out of bad situations but bore/stroking the 150cc will most likely kill the mileage benefit. The thing I'm pondering though is the fact that you were able to essentially gain back the mpg you lost when you started modding. Waiting on insurance to tell me what the deal is with my claim, then I have to decide if I want to keep the scoot and mod it, or fix it, sell and get a 250cc bike that gets the same or better mpg as the scoot once I can ride again. Choices choices...

[mainepeace]

Just to keep you updated, here is the latest gas fillup:

07/22/11 958.2 - 1046.5 --- 0.962 gal --- 91.78 --- Hard starting

which brings the current fuel economy table to:

Date ----- Odometer -------- Gas -------- MPG
??/??/?? 733.1 - 757.3 ---? gal --------- ? ------- Gas tank leaked! Have to start over.
??/??/?? 757.3 - 856.4 ---- 1.001 gal --- 99.00 --- Hard cold starting
06/11/11 856.4 - 958.2 ---- 1.083 gal --- 93.33 --- Fuel pump leak and overfilled!
07/22/11 958.2 - 1046.5 --- 0.962 gal --- 91.78 --- Hard starting issues

The battery issue has been resolved. The standard 3 amp battery that comes with many 50cc scooters just ISN'T powerful enough for startup and it is killed fairly quickly, especially with cold start issues. I replaced it with a 7A (REALLY a 6 amp battery) from Scrappy Dog (Need to update your product descriptions guys) and so far no issues. No charging issues. The problem is that with the draw of the ECU and the fuel pump, the cranking power of the battery immediately drops by 3-4 amps. Add on to that the running lights and instrument cluster, the battery output voltage is at 8v when cranking. Not good for the life of the battery. With the 6 amp battery, the voltage drops to 10v. Not the best, but manageable. So far no charging issues have been identified. I am going to replace the rear brake light with an LED one I got from Taiwan, just haven't had the chance to do so yet.

There still needs to be a tiny bit of tweaking for the cold tables, as sometimes it starts right up on the second revolution first crank try, sometimes it takes three tries.

Greg

[mainepeace]

Nope, don't have either. I think the nearest Dyno might be in Boston.

The kit wasn't made specifically for the 50cc, so there were many "modifications" I needed to do. Much of it was a learning process as very few people in general have put on an aftermarket EFI kit, let alone one for a little 50cc motor.

I have no idea how many hours I put into it, totally. Perhaps 20? It's been a few months since I started, but then I have done NOTHING to it for the past month and a half. It is reflected in the gas fillups I have done. I hardly ride my own scooter anymore.

EFI in general can't be as PNP as an exhaust or an intake filter. It's a complicated system.

Overall the power gains have been noticeable. I can't compare to another mod, like "it's 2x more powerful than an exhaust upgrade" because it would be meaningless to another scooter with a different setup. There still are some minor tweaks that need to be done, but I don't have the time to spend on it currently. I'm sure with some actual tuning I can get a bit more power out of the engine. I haven't even played with the spark advance yet.

Plug and play it's not. It does work as long as you have the charging circuit necessary and I'm sure the stock 50cc stator can't handle the draw. I still have charging issues, but I have not had the time to locate the cause yet. I haven't bothered to check if my system is even attempting to charge the battery.

The point of the EFI was having control of the engine.

Greg

[gregw]

Jul 31, 2011 19:47:24 GMT -5 highgaintuning said:

I guess as a hobbiest with a lot of time on your hands you could get the kit somewhat dialed in to where it would run but you could also just purchase the parts direct from Moto-EFI at 1/4 to 1/2 the cost and not feel as bad after you pull it all back off and put your carburetor back on.

Right on there! Sounds like a huge waste of time and money for such a small gain (unless it's simply a hobby and not intended to actually save any money or save emissions. The emissions used to ship the generic kit is more than the kit will save in the scooters lifetime).

[mainepeace]

Matt has always been good to me. Many times out of the blue he has sent me a new calibration he came up with to test out. He also has offered to replace any part of the kit for me free of charge. He really wants the 50cc market. In a way I'm a guinea pig for him, which is fine by me. Right now I'm fairly certain that it's the fuel pump that's the power hog and possibly the tiny stator on these 50cc engines can't handle it. 150cc stators don't have that issue. DEFINITELY high end Aprilias would not have these issues.

True, there was a lot of unnecessary work as the Ecotrons kit was never before put on a Chinese made 50cc Gy6 clone scooter, as far as Matt knew. This was partially R&D for my own purposes, having the thought of reselling the kits or thinking about putting them on my rental scooters. It would be nice if the CDI used the same connectors then that would cut out almost all the soldering necessary. Sure the kit has shortcomings, but these 50cc scooters don't have much to work with.

The other guy broke a rocker but last I heard it was unrelated to the kit.

Looking back, what this comes down to for custom work:

1. Puncturing the fuel tank because mine did not have a fuel return line as most of these tanks don't
2. Welding on a bung for the oxygen sensor - pretty much unavoidable
3. Tapping into the wiring harness for 7 or 8 wires - could be avoided with a different connector on the CDI

All of this can be done fairly quickly now that I've found out what works and what doesn't work. The only issue is the charging issue which I have not looked into. I keep going back and forth as to what the cause is, but frankly I haven't even BEGUN to look into it, let alone put a multimeter up to the stator to see what the output is. It could be a faulty stator and not the kit's fault at all. I also think it has leaky rings as a few times I found gas in the oil. Probably not the fault of the EFI kit as it started before I put the kit on. I have no idea but I have 4 other scooters sitting in my shop NOT making money that I have to get roadworthy again.

I'll say that cost isn't a factor for me for this kit. When you consider how many people spend $200-$300 for a stainless steel exhaust that maybe gives (most likely loses) 1-2mph it's par for the course.

Thanks for your feedback, really appreciate it.

Greg

[mainepeace]

Hey all,

Here are the LATEST fuel economy numbers with my fillup today.

I went 105.8 miles and filled up with .972 gallons giving me 108.8 MPG!

Overall I've gotten 395 miles after the restart and filled up with 4.018 gallons of gas giving 98.3 MPG average. This includes the fuel leaks and the hard starts. Not too bad! And, this includes driving at WOT much of the time.


Date ----- Odometer -------- Gas -------- MPG
??/??/?? 733.1 - 757.3 ---? gal --------- ? ------- Gas tank leaked! Have to start over.
??/??/?? 757.3 - 856.4 ---- 1.001 gal --- 99.00 --- Hard cold starting
06/11/11 856.4 - 958.2 ---- 1.083 gal --- 93.33 --- Fuel pump leak and overfilled!
07/22/11 958.2 - 1046.5 --- 0.962 gal --- 91.78 --- Hard starting issues
08/09/11 1046.5 - 1152.3 --- 0.972 gal --- 108.8 --- More TRUE numbers

LIFETIME: 395.0 miles --- 4.018 gal --- 98.3 MPG


I have another update about the power and charging issues. I have finally replaced the tail light with an LED one. The power draw by the running lights has been significantly reduced.

Before, when I turn on the ignition the fuel pump would turn on. It draws about 2.3-3 amps. If I hit the brake while the pump was going I could hear it slow down significantly as the audible tone of the pump would drop a few notes. Now, with the LED tail light, when I hit the brakes with the fuel pump priming it does not change tone at all.

The battery is still at 12.7 volts and over the past 10 or so starts I have not had a noticeable power dropoff in the starter motor. So far things look good.

I have the theory (will test later) that the stock 3A (or even 5A) battery cannot handle the HUGE power draw of the 2.5A tail light and 2.3-3.0A fuel pump (and the ECU and CDI) while simultaneously running the starter motor. There is WAY too much power draw and it damages the battery. I'll know more in a few days but it seems that the charging is good and the charge retention is good as well.

Charging issue solved by an LED tail light? Possibly! I don't have an ammeter that can handle 8 amps of direct current or I'd directly measure the power draw on startup. At the moment I need to infer based upon voltage drop over the system and battery.

Greg

[mainepeace]

To any of you who are interested, here is the latest update:

I received a new version of the ProCAL tuning software, a new ECU ROM and a new calibration file from Matt at Ecotrons.

I just installed the new program today, flashed the ECU and loaded the new calibration file.

Matt tells me that they have coded a new idle management algorithm. This one uses timing advance. The old one was based on fuel management only, from what I understand. This should make the idle more stable.

I loaded it up on the scooter and cranked it over. It started IMMEDIATLY. No hard start, no cranking. It caught literally on the first rev.

The battery charging issue seems to be a thing of the past with the LED taillight keeping the starting parasitic losses to a level the battery can handle. Time will tell how well the battery lasts this time.

I am fairly certain that all the major issues have been addressed and fixed and that anybody who does not want to spend their time programming the fuel tables in ProCAL will enjoy the kit.

Definitely been a long road, but I feel I'm finally done with the install. Anything else will be filed under "maintenance" so I will make some final edits to the opening post then be done with this thread.

Greg

[13lky2]

Thanks for your continued updates!

[dipsherry]

hey greg thank you for being the test hampster. I got my kit sitting on my kitchen table along with all my other parts going in this weekend. and thank you so much for all the updates i printed all 63 pages of this thread and will use every inch of your build and plan on starting my own build thread

[mainepeace]

Man don't waste paper! LOL! Glad I could help. Definitely get the LED taillight and it will make a difference.

All the calibrations should be updated and should work great on your scooter.

Now that I finally have the EFI dialed in I can do the mods that I really wanted to do. I haven't even changed the rollers yet as I wanted the scooter to be 100% stock for the install. There are 6.7g rollers in there now, and I'm sure that I'll feel a good performance boost with 5g sliders.

Greg

[mainepeace]

Ok, latest mileage numbers!

I went 96.7 miles and filled up with .885 gallons (to the normal fillup point)

Date ----- Odometer -------- Gas -------- MPG
??/??/?? 733.1 - 757.3 ---? gal --------- ? ------- Gas tank leaked! Have to start over.
??/??/?? 757.3 - 856.4 ---- 1.001 gal --- 99.00 --- Hard cold starting
06/11/11 856.4 - 958.2 ---- 1.083 gal --- 93.33 --- Fuel pump leak and overfilled!
07/22/11 958.2 - 1046.5 --- 0.962 gal --- 91.78 --- Hard starting issues
08/09/11 1046.5 - 1152.3 --- 0.972 gal --- 108.8 --- More TRUE numbers
08/20/11 1152.3 - 1249.0 --- 0.885 gal --- 109.2 --- Awesome gas mileage!

LIFETIME: 491.7 miles --- 4.903 gal --- 100.28 MPG

I'm averaging OVER 100 mpg with driving at WOT all the time!

I know I haven't given too much in the way of performance numbers, but I can say definitely that I am getting at least a 20% increase in low RPM torque. Throttle response is immediate and crisp. I just filled up with 91 (I normally use 89) and the 38 deg advanced timing is really kicking in. The same road I would normally cruise at 38 on I was just cruising at 42-44. Top speed unchanged but upper end acceleration increased as well.

This is with the engine and variator totally stock. I have 6.7g rollers in there now and it used to bog going up hills. Now the low end torque is there and it's powering away so I can actually accelerate a bit in places where I would lose 5mph. As soon as I put in some 5g sliders it should have really good hill climbing ability.

Starts up immediately, first time. So far no issues with the new ROM and calibration file. This is on a 63 so on a 50 the gains might not be as much, but will be comparable. I think it's definitely worth the $300 price tag and the gains are more than by putting on a $200 SS exhaust and pod filter.

Greg

[noday]

Thank you Greg.

hard to believe this thread started way back in April. Time flies.

are you going to post some data plots of rpm v speed with different roller wts ?

straight runs on level ground should work even without a dyno

I am thinking back to the below dyno plots

[D-cat]

Just as a reminder, that particular plot was of a 2-stroke which had a performance exhaust obviously tuned to about 8000 rpm.

I would be interested in seeing the difference though between a stock 63cc and and the EFI machine on a dyno, all other things being equal. I'd also like to see the difference weights make on a 4T; I doubt it would be this kind of spread but that was posed in the original thread.

[mainepeace]

The ECU does not track speed so I can't get a nice pretty graph. I'll post a graph later of some of the info it does track. RPM, fuel injector pulse width, Oxygen sensor, IAT, MAP, etc.

Greg

[Pony66]

This is such an interesting thread. As far as an external fuel pump overheating, I have been using one for 15 years and have had no problems. Only thing is, you can hear it. A lot of fuel pumps have a foam rubber sleave that helps with the noise.
About the electric, I used to have a light on my bicycle that used a "generator" that hooked up the the front tire. I dont remember much, but could you put one or two of those generators on a scooter?

[stitts]

Reading theses posts and seeing how well this set up works with time I will be in the market for it soon. Now the question is who will be putting the turbo they offer on first. I was looking at the EFI kit and saw a kit ready for turbo. I clicked on products and saw the turbo for $299. I can just imagen a scooter zipping by with that distinctive whiz of a turbo. Could you imagen going by a motorcycle and kicking that thing in . I know it is small, but it would still have a pretty good tone to it. Now I just have to okay it with the boss lol. ;D. I thank all those who do these products and keeps the rest of us with such great info. It is greatly appreciated. THank you.

[Scootless Wonder]

Just my $0.02 on the charging bit, have you considered a smaller audio capacitor addition to the electrical system? It might be overkill but I know in the car audio field, larger systems draw quite a bit especially when the bass hits hard and a capacitor acts as a battery/shock absorber giving that extra power whenever it may be needed. Just an idea to look into.

Otherwise this has been a fascinating read and definitely looks interesting. I'll hopefully be getting a CN250 soon maybe I'll convert it over the winter if I have the funds.

[noday]

yes, I know the ecu does not monitor or record speed.

I was thinking of some simple data plots, as in 10-20-30-40 mph, etc v rpms

about dynos, there may be one closer than you think.

I was surprised.

there are four local to me) motorcycle shops with dynos. Two have prominent signs that say "We do not work on Chinese scooters"

$45 + tax per run x 3 different wts = +/- $150.00

$70 a run with A/F plotted

not sure I want to see that chart that bad, at this point ?

Hmmnnn, something to think about. lol