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Post by mainepeace on May 17, 2011 19:18:31 GMT -5
FYI, the kick start works to start the scooter. I just tried it and it started up fine. However, you MUST have a battery and it MUST have at least a minimum amount of power to run the ECU.
The ECU needs to have separate continuous power since it needs to go through a startup phase and also prime the fuel pump. A dead battery might not be enough.
So if you have run down your battery so that it isn't enough to engage the starter, it still should be enough to power the ECU to fire the injector so the scooter can start.
Greg
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Post by 13lky2 on May 17, 2011 19:51:33 GMT -5
No rush on the mpg numbers, just additional ammo for my upgrade arsenal!
;D
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Post by mainepeace on May 19, 2011 16:40:47 GMT -5
Got a new version of the ProCAL-SE software (5.3.2) from Matt. Finally stopped raining today so I might take her out this evening and run some more tests. Got some more recommendations for tuning from Matt so I'll get some numbers and let you know.
My battery died yesterday again. It was directly due to the petcock I had to replace. Having two petcocks attached, and one without directions, can make for a little "fuel fun" when trying to start her up.
The petcock I got from China has 3 positions, 1) on, 2) off, 3) reserve. Interesting because there is only one nipple on it. I'm not sure if the reserve position means that the fuel will only flow backwards into the tank, as in from a reserve tank INTO the main fuel tank. Or possibly it could be that 2-3 mL of gas INSIDE the petcock is considered the "reserve". Have no clue.
The handle on the petcock valve also works backwards from what I would consider normal. The handle is extends in one direction from the pivot point. NORMALLY, I would implicitly consider an "arrow" pointing in the other side of it, so that it "points" to the setting. However, I didn't notice that etched on the handle is a "FUEL ->" logo, having the fuel flow opposite in the direction of the handle. Minor issue, I know, but when you can't immediately see the petcock due to body panels, you kind of assume certain things about how valves are setup.
Suffice it to say I was trying to start the scooter with the petcock OFF. Went through the whole battery before I noticed that little gaff, scratching my head and yelling at the scooter. Oh well. Got the battery all charged up now and will do another test ride after I clean the carb on Pinky.
*It's good for a business to be noticed. I'm getting known around town as the "guy who rides the Pink scooter". LOL. At least they remember the scooter. Once I get lettering and emblems on them I'll have some more free advertising.
Greg
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Post by mainepeace on May 20, 2011 19:19:42 GMT -5
I came across this exhaust from Motorpartsmax.com  It looks like there is an oxygen sensor bung already attached to it, but I can't really see from the photos. It also looks to be too small, but not sure. There is NO descriptive info on any of their parts listed. Maybe someone is familiar with the exhaust and can chime in. Greg |
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Post by mainepeace on May 22, 2011 23:05:21 GMT -5
No new news. Been busy prepping my rental scooters so haven't had a chance to run some new settings. I'll do some tuning tomorrow... tired as I had an all nighter cannibalizing one scooter to fix another one, and swapping nearly every part except the wiring loom and the engine. Also was up all day.
Greg
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Post by ericrockstar on May 24, 2011 11:04:46 GMT -5
Just checking the post for updates. I was wandering if the nylon fuel return line would hold up.
Also wandering if you have to shut off the petcock every day? Will it leak gas if you don't?
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Post by mainepeace on May 24, 2011 17:22:07 GMT -5
After that major leak last week from my DIY petcock, there has been NO gas leaking. The petcock doesn't need to be turned off, as the fuel pump stops the flow of fuel.
Not much else to tell. Still getting through the tank of gas. Power has been consistent. Just takes a few tries to start when it's stone cold, but that's just the cold fuel tables that I need to tweak. Should be fine tomorrow when I get a chance to upload the new settings.
Greg
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Post by redghee on May 26, 2011 6:50:41 GMT -5
Thanks for this very informative post, we are installing the Ecotrons EFI on Stock Box motors from Harbor Freight 6.5HP single cylinder 168cc Ours was going great until the MSD Ignition decided to poop out we were having intermittent failures last season,.. now its better cuz its dead! www.elrenograscar.com Lawnmower racing in El Reno OK I loved the shipping box as well! LOL Matt is very helpful! I hope you don't mind a non scooter post here. |
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Post by mainepeace on May 28, 2011 13:46:01 GMT -5
So I just did my first REAL fill-up after the EFI. 1.001 gallons, 856.4 miles. Odometer -------- Gas -------- MPG 733.1 - 757.3 ---? gal --------- ? ------- Gas tank leaked! Have to start over. 757.3 - 856.4 ---- 1.001 gal --- 99.00 --- Hard cold starting Not bad, 99 MPG, with MOST of that going at WOT. I also just noticed a small gas leak. It leaks onto the engine block, so the gas evaporates quickly. Not sure how long the leak has been going on, and it could definitely be the source for the cold starting if the fuel pressure can't be maintained. I also adjusted the idle air bypass screw.  It's the big screw at the bottom of the frame. I adjusted the cold fuel tables, but I forgot that the tables are in Celsius so I was modifying them for 60 deg C... kinda hot and not applicable when it's 60 deg F outside in the morning. Anyway, the leak is around the clamp from the fuel pump going to the T before the injector. It's already pretty damn tight, I'll have to put some RTV sealant around it I guess. Not sure if teflon tape would work for this. With the gas leaking for who knows how long, I'm sure the true MPG is much higher! As a comparison, the last MPG rating I measured pre-EFI was about 80 MPG. Greg |
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Post by justbuggin on May 28, 2011 14:25:40 GMT -5
the exhaust you shows looks to have an egr flange on it not an O2 port
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Post by mainepeace on May 28, 2011 14:57:00 GMT -5
Ok, couldn't tell from the pic, and of course there was no description in the eBay ad. Thanks.
Greg
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Post by larry001964 on May 28, 2011 15:50:08 GMT -5
This is some cool stuff.
I think it's still pretty rough and some problems still need over come. I see price as the main hold back on this. 299 vs 35 (new carb) most will opt for the new carb.
I do however think this shows great promise, I would love to get involved more with the engineering aspect of this, That would be fun. I actually think a low voltage pump with built in pressure regulator or better yet a mechanical pump off the variator nut with a spring operated regulator on the fuel return line to maintain exact pressure. It could be developed easily and the bike can make use of the kick starter. This is really cool stuff love it :-)
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Post by mainepeace on May 28, 2011 17:10:01 GMT -5
But the thing to remember, is that this isn't a one time upgrade. This gives you the ability to TUNE any airflow changes you make, getting the most out of every upgrade. It's just an added benefit that I got 20 extra miles for this tankful. Also, you can be sure of certain things, rather than just guess. You can watch the gauges in real time. I think it's a MUST for any serious modder.
Once the cold fuel tables are tweaked my cold start issue should be solved.
Greg
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Post by larry001964 on May 28, 2011 17:22:44 GMT -5
I agree with you Greg, but I think it needs some additional work, many have expressed a concern about power, about not being able to use the kickstart, relying on the a Chinese battery when most aren't that good to begin with. For me winter starting is where my scooter needs all it could get from the battery just to fire the spark plug. It couldn't afford to give anything to a fuel pump..
I love the concept, and as I said I would love to see this developed more, the price brought down so more could afford the retrofit. I agree the benefits and potential benefits are fantastic. But still think it's too expensive in it's current form for anybody but the hard core scooter rider, most will never buy such a thing when a carb cost 35 dollars.
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Post by mainepeace on May 28, 2011 18:05:30 GMT -5
True, and it's a shame. If someone can't afford the $35 for a carb then they definitely won't spend the $299 for this kit. But if you add up the cost (plus shipping) of different parts as you upgrade, and replace as you upgrade again, and the time you spend pulling the plug, cleaning the carb, changing jets, you'll appreciate being able to use the keyboard to make those tweaks.
Well so far I haven't had to change the battery or charge it up this tank of gas. It *seems* to be charging fine. Of course if you just go short hops of less than a few miles each you might need to help the battery a bit. The new fuel pump should be coming soon, which will use less power. You could just upgrade to a 9Ah battery and not have to worry about it, or have a secondary battery for when it's cold and as a backup. If you wire them in parallel with a switch you can isolate one battery to power the ECU while you kick start the scooter. It *does* work with the kickstart as long as there is power for the fuel pump and ECU.
There are details to work out, and Matt is great about it. I'm sure changes for the better are in the works, to make this simpler install. A few things you can't get around, like adding the oxygen sensor, but it *might* be possible to install a spacer with the sensor bung pre-made. The fuel tank return line is the other major hurdle, unless they can come up with a returnless fuel system.
Greg
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Post by justbuggin on May 28, 2011 18:38:36 GMT -5
the more i read about this the more i want it for my bike i have a 150cc scoot that i love to ride i can see the benefits of have this system on the bike i think it will make my bike more reiable and it will also make it better in traffic as it will mantian speed better how does it do going up hills does it help keep the speed up are what?
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Post by larry001964 on May 28, 2011 19:01:56 GMT -5
I remember my 1980 550 KZ, if it didn't have a good battery you didn't go anywhere period. If the battery when bad while you were driving it you were stranded until you got another battery. This system reminds me me of those days. I know most modern day motorcycles are that way now. However one thing I do like about my scooter is even without a battery, I can kickstart it.. If my battery was dead on this system no amount of kicking will start it.
Also Indiana is pretty much flat land, yes we have some hills but few that requires you adjust your carb, our main problem is our seasonal temperature variations. Winter -29 Celsius to 38 degrees. And to be honest I have not had to adjust my carb for that either. Except to open my idle screw 1/4 of a turn more for the denser air. Over all my scooter requires very little maintenance beyond changing the oil.
While i like the idea of cleaner air, without a catalytic converter it's not that much cleaner, while i like saving gas, 20 miles extra per tank at these prices. Say 4.15 per gallon, will save you about .048 cents per mile or about .96 cents, for every 20 miles, or 28,800 miles to break even on the cost of the kit.
I do like the idea very much but the cost must come down to justify it.
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Post by mainepeace on May 28, 2011 20:15:55 GMT -5
Personally (and other people may be different) I don't always look at the hard cost/investment recoupment for doing modifications. I'm sure spending $200 for a stainless steel exhaust is NOT going to get you $200 in fuel savings or savings anywhere else. Or the windshield, will that help give better gas mileage? Or add to the resale value of the scooter? Are those chrome handlebar weights worth the $45 spent? How much is the vibration reduction worth to you in U.S. Dollars? how does it do going up hills does it help keep the speed up are what? To me, the power gain across the RPM range is VERY noticeable. Torque is up across the board. There are no low spots in the curve. Every throttle position gets optimal fuel for the air. Going up steep hills is better, as the engine doesn't bog down as much at the low RPM's, and there is a bit more power. However, it's more the drivetrain that is causing that slowness and without a 50% torque increase it won't get substantially better. The torque increase could be from a larger displacement, or it could be through different "gearing" via rollers or torque sheave or torque springs. As I said, it's hard to get real numbers that you can compare, because of the nature of the beast. Anyone who says "my top speed increased by 3 mph!" is deluding themselves, unless it's something truly measurable, like taller final gears, which really will give that 3mph boost, which can be measured with a radar gun. Sure, a mod might make it faster under certain circumstances, but it will be very hard to quantify. Ask anyone with a BBK to give real numbers about the power gain. Unless they went to a Dyno they can't. I know I CAN'T give real numbers other than MPG that have any real meaning to anyone else. I could measure 0-30mph times, but those times for my scooter at 60 deg F and unknown roller weights will have no translation to someone else who is at 5,000 feet at 82 deg F and 6 gram roller weights with an NCY variator. 20 extra miles on a tank of gas doesn't seem like much, but when you put it as a 25% mileage rate increase, that is more significant. I'm not sure that it will increase that much more with other modifications, but my engine when stock made 110 MPG at its absolute best (not going over 20), averaged around 100 MPG for the first 500 miles, until I started modding it. Then, after air filter changes and upjetting and running at WOT ALL the time, it went down to 80 MPG. With the EFI and running WOT just as much as before (perhaps more so) I went back up to 99 MPG, and that was with a small gas leak (which I may have figured out, my fault). So driving conservatively it could potentially go up to 120 MPG or more, but I'm not going to test that  RE: gas leak It seems that there is a nipple next to the fuel outlet that's supposed to be blocked off with a tied off hose. It comes from Ecotrons with the hose on. I must have taken it off and forgotten about it, so I never installed that short hose, and gas leaked out of it. I have no clue what that nipple is supposed to be for, but it's supposed to be blocked off on our kits. Greg Attachments:
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Post by larry001964 on May 28, 2011 21:55:45 GMT -5
I got my scoot to ride and tinker on for fun. I am not to worried about fuel mileage as it is just an added bonus. Cost to savings is irrelevant to me because the way I see it is I spent the money to tinker with not necessarily to get more mpg's, but to have fun. Roy I can't argue with the fun logic Roy, and I'm honestly for the idea. It's the cost that bothers me.. I have worked with engineers my entire life, right besides them, but never before as an engineer.. One of the reasons why I went back to school is we need good engineers.. I can see china getting a hold of this thing and shortly producing a cheaper model.. I want this thing to stay here in America, Business is simple they go where there's the most money to be made. So lowering the cost is in the long term beneficial to all of us to keep it here In order to make things in America again, we are going to have to out engineer the rest of the world in both product and manufacturing cost.. And truth be known this is why I'm concerned about the cost.. I like this idea very very much. I would like to see more innovation that will not go abroad, then sold back to us.. |
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Post by jmkjr72 on May 28, 2011 22:47:26 GMT -5
well ill have to make sure i block that off as i didnt even notce a plug for that port on the pump when i got my 2 stroke kit
i have my stroke zuma up and running on 1 injector right now as my kit was missing the bung for the second injector on the 2 stroke
i would have to say matt has been a great help and that was even before i started to put anything on my scoot
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Post by mainepeace on May 28, 2011 23:10:49 GMT -5
Larry, it's funny you mention China... this is made in China or Taiwan, shipped from Taiwan... Matt has a very thick accent if you speak to him. I think he wrote everything on the website.
The price can go down a bit, especially with larger production, but this is a complicated kit. It's not like an exhaust which has no moving parts, or a big bore kit which is basically just semi-precision cast parts. I'm sure with enough interest the price can go down maybe 10-15%. Ecotrons isn't the only company producing EFI kits, it's just the first specifically for small engines down to 50cc in size. I'm sure some of the other kits could be adapted but that would take time and additional expense.
All in all, I spent about $50 or so in additional parts and welding. I'm sure that later iterations of the kit will include the "missing" parts that I had to experiment with. The manual fuel petcock will probably be an option, as well as the proper length throttle cable.
It was a hell of a lot of fun to do. It's still fun tweaking it. I just wish I had more time!
Next step: installing kit CDI to play with the timing advance.
Greg
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Post by larry001964 on May 29, 2011 17:18:37 GMT -5
Larry, it's funny you mention China... this is made in China or Taiwan, shipped from Taiwan... Matt has a very thick accent if you speak to him. I think he wrote everything on the website. The price can go down a bit, especially with larger production, but this is a complicated kit. It's not like an exhaust which has no moving parts, or a big bore kit which is basically just semi-precision cast parts. I'm sure with enough interest the price can go down maybe 10-15%. Ecotrons isn't the only company producing EFI kits, it's just the first specifically for small engines down to 50cc in size. I'm sure some of the other kits could be adapted but that would take time and additional expense. All in all, I spent about $50 or so in additional parts and welding. I'm sure that later iterations of the kit will include the "missing" parts that I had to experiment with. The manual fuel petcock will probably be an option, as well as the proper length throttle cable. It was a hell of a lot of fun to do. It's still fun tweaking it. I just wish I had more time! Next step: installing kit CDI to play with the timing advance. Greg Made in china....... Darn... didn't see that on the website. I was hoping it was made here. Ohhh well |
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Post by mainepeace on May 30, 2011 21:04:40 GMT -5
Well, I was having some belt slippage today. I looked at the scooter tonight to do some work and this is what I saw. I could not see a leak anywhere. Around the puddle it is dry so I could not locate a source of the leak. It is very unlikely that the gear oil would leak ON TOP of the crankcase. That would be something if it happened. So, I just remembered that I never got the chance to plug the pressure bypass port for the fuel pump! Idiot! I can only guess that the gas leaked out when I was at speed, and the wind blew it to the rear shock absorber. The gas then soaked up the shock absorber like a wick and dissolved some shock fluid, which then dribbled down and made the mess on top of the rear crankcase. The fuel pump was dry, but that didn't mean anything as the gasoline would have evaporated. Well, I made it a point to fix this once and for all! Next post has the shot of the plug I made. I also noticed that the T I got for the fuel return line was leaking as well. It was a 1/4" T and I *should* have gotten a 3/8". Oh well. I CAREFULLY put teflon tape around the nipples and zip tied the fuel lines on as they are too small for clamps (and too fragile) *Regular white teflon tape should not be used for fuel lines, as the teflon can dissolve and clog the line. If you are careful and keep the edge of the tape back from the connector edge, so that a thread of it cannot get into the fuel line, you *should* be safe. They make Yellow teflon tape for fuel lines. I hope it won't leak anymore! Greg Attachments:
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Post by mainepeace on May 30, 2011 21:05:18 GMT -5
Plug for fuel pump. Attachments:
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Post by zedooo on Jun 7, 2011 19:44:15 GMT -5
So? What's the state of the scooter now? How's it runnin'?
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Post by mainepeace on Jun 8, 2011 21:44:09 GMT -5
The battery has been dying. This morning, in my rush to get to the shop, I broke the kick starter gear. It's a BRAND NEW battery, so somewhere there are charging issues. I'll try to find out more about when the new low power fuel pump will come in. This charging issue is only a problem with 50cc engines, as 150's have a stronger stator.
Still working on a cold start issue. Just need to tweak the cold fuel map a bit more as I think it's a bit lean. Just haven't had the chance yet. Maybe tomorrow, after I fix the kick starter!
I'm just about done with the second tank of gas, so I'm probably at 110 mpg. It should be better but for the leak from the fuel pump....
Greg
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Post by 13lky2 on Jun 9, 2011 7:10:19 GMT -5
The gas mileage numbers make me want to jump on this kit even faster... mebbe i should accidentally break my carb so I have to get a "replacement".
;D
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Post by larry001964 on Jun 9, 2011 10:00:29 GMT -5
The battery has been dying. This morning, in my rush to get to the shop, I broke the kick starter gear. It's a BRAND NEW battery, so somewhere there are charging issues. I'll try to find out more about when the new low power fuel pump will come in. This charging issue is only a problem with 50cc engines, as 150's have a stronger stator. Still working on a cold start issue. Just need to tweak the cold fuel map a bit more as I think it's a bit lean. Just haven't had the chance yet. Maybe tomorrow, after I fix the kick starter! I'm just about done with the second tank of gas, so I'm probably at 110 mpg. It should be better but for the leak from the fuel pump.... Greg I was really afraid that would happen Greg, I'm not knocking the system, far from it. but as many here know the 50cc charging system is limited in what it can support. About 2 amp is all you have to spare, the power needed to run the fuel pump and maintain that fuel pressure i'm figuring is closer to 3 Amp. I'm thinking the system will need to upgrade the stator, or a mechanical system like I suggested. I lean tword the mechanical system with a spring loaded regulator return line and a check valve. The ecm can use its own battery and use only the scooters battery to charge it.. Meaning even with a completely dead battery the scooter would run.. I Built a heating system for my scooter this year, its posted here somewhere, I used the scooters power to run heated gloves for the winter.. 2 amp is about all you have to work with.. |
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Post by mainepeace on Jun 9, 2011 22:40:49 GMT -5
I DEFINITELY agree with you on the power charging issue. It has me a little depressed about the system. I'm just waiting for the new low power consumption fuel pump. Possibly wire in a separate battery for the ECU.
You know, as long as there is a plug (accessory port) plugging in the scooter once a week shouldn't be an issue.
I'll fill up the scooter tomorrow as I just fixed the kick starter (retaining clip came loose so the thing bumped against the variator preventing starting). Gas tank shows 1/8 more gas than I had thought in it... so I *might* be up to 120 mpg this tank. We'll see tomorrow.
Greg
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Post by larry001964 on Jun 9, 2011 23:00:05 GMT -5
I DEFINITELY agree with you on the power charging issue. It has me a little depressed about the system. I'm just waiting for the new low power consumption fuel pump. Possibly wire in a separate battery for the ECU. You know, as long as there is a plug (accessory port) plugging in the scooter once a week shouldn't be an issue. I'll fill up the scooter tomorrow as I just fixed the kick starter (retaining clip came loose so the thing bumped against the variator preventing starting). Gas tank shows 1/8 more gas than I had thought in it... so I *might* be up to 120 mpg this tank. We'll see tomorrow. Greg I can understand your disappointment, pass my idea about the mechanical fuel pump along to the people your working with. this can be fabricated pretty quickly. As for charging the battery idea with accessory port. I have my doubts about that working very long.. These batteries are designed to store energy and release small amounts of it quickly. They are not designed to be discharged and recharged much. Only to maintain a charge. The system really shows promise it just needs to work within the limits of the scooter and it's components. The ECM will run on 12 volts but maybe 1/2 amp at most. It won't pull more than the scooter can supply. My suggestion in a separate battery for it is just to provide it power if the scooters battery is dead. The mechanical pump fitted to the nut in the variator will provide all the pressure you need and then some. the overflow amount can be sent back to the tank just as the electric does. starting pressure can be maintained with a check valve, and exact pressure can be maintained with a spring loaded adjustable regulator. Simple low power, starts when the scooters main battery is dead. Just pass the idea along. Can't hurt :-) |
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