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Post by WarrenS on Aug 7, 2009 16:13:14 GMT -5
I ride in a safety bubble, that is I keep a free zone around me at all times. It may not always be possible, but it is always desirable. At intersections you can use larger vehicles to protect you. I never let the other guy determine my fate. I don't count on anybody doing the expected. If I see a situation developing I slow down and evaluate the situation. Patience is a virtue. The fall from the electric scooter happened because the steering loosened up so I couldn't steer.
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Post by mafunsalow on Aug 8, 2009 22:02:51 GMT -5
I am not disputing the value of safety equipment. In a slide and most falls it is invaluable. If you have read my posts I wear some all the time and the rest most of the time.Heck , I grew up watching Evel Knievel but I am not privy to or able to afford the gear he wore. You can bet he wouldn't buy a helmet online for a few bucks. My problem arises when someone hands out organ donor cards to those that are not wearing them. And calling them stupid ranks right up there too. Anyone riding is quite aware of the inherint dangers of riding openly on two wheels.An adult who makes a concious decision as to what they wear or don't wear is just that, their decision.Does it affect me? Well maybe indirectly. Just as a drug dealer down the street that causes a gang shootout or a neighbors house that burns down or a drunk driving on 95. Does it affect first responders? Sure I don't think that anyone gets "immune" to it but I don't see how they would take it more personal than a drowning , shooting car accident, suicide or fire. Now some (not all) riders seem to have more the Superman ego and that would be the young crotch rocket riders.(And we all know what happened to superman when he landed on his helmet) Whom, in my opinion are inflating the statistics.Just look at Sheri's post. For 20 years what she has had to endure. It's sad. And thats about the time the sport bikes became popular. But that state has had a mandatory helmet law for 40 years.
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Post by phaze on Aug 8, 2009 22:42:59 GMT -5
heres my thoughts, dont like being told to wear but i would wear one anyway,
out of all my toys , i was riding/racing a bicycle of all stupid things. i was about 21ish and i caught the pedal in the turn and hurled me 10 feet away like i was a doll lol.
after i skidded and cracked my head/ face into the asphalt. i literally had a hole and road rash across my face, left hand side , you should of seen people as i drove home lol.
i'll remember that crash for the rest of my life, i was layin on the floor in severe pain when my buddies HOT girlfriend with a mini skirt comes in to check on me, god bless her the pain went away immediately, unfortunately it was short lived lol
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Post by Chi Makwa on Aug 8, 2009 23:51:48 GMT -5
...Does it affect first responders? Sure I don't think that anyone gets "immune" to it but I don't see how they would take it more personal than a drowning , shooting car accident, suicide or fire. ... But is it fair to make a choice that could potentially add to that load of horrors they already have to deal with? Shouldn't we be trying to lighten their workload? Should we be ok with giving these heroic people even more of that psychological trauma? My own conscience tells me no. Sheri didn't say how her experience affected her personally, or how it affects her coworkers. That's personal information I don't feel comfortable even asking for on a forum like this, but that's also where the answer to this aspect of the debate lies; in the personal experience of people who've lived it. The rest of us can only guess whether unnecessary head splatters are worse to deal with than the other horrible experiences you mentioned. Sheri described the details of what she's seen, and they sound horrific to me. But if you're the dead guy, you're not the one having to deal with it. You're not the traumatized child who might have seen it happen. Does anyone here know anyone who is an emergency responder who doesn't wear a helmet? Or a hospital trauma worker? Or anyone who's lost a loved one because their loved one didn't wear a helmet? I think those people's perspectives are important. Do they ride without helmets? Of course I can't speak for emergency responders, but I think it's plausible that they might see these head splatters as more difficult to deal with because they might have been avoided but weren't, by someone's voluntary choice. I think I personally would find that very difficult to reconcile. (I also think helmet laws could be persuasively argued from this point of view alone, though again I'm not arguing in favor of that.) We will each make our own choices. By pressing this issue, my goal is to encourage everyone to make more informed choices when it comes to helmet use. Consider the emergency responders, witnesses, and the people who love you.
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Post by rampant on Aug 9, 2009 11:53:55 GMT -5
Wearing a helmet is probably a good thing but the issue is some people dont feel comfortable wearing them , its harder to hear, and see around u and its hot, the issue of wearing a helmet should be a personal matter not for the government to tell u that u must, the insurance cos are the reason for the law in the first place , and we all know its a money issue to bring in revenue than a safety issue. If they could the lawmakers would have us all wearing padded gear all the time, because its far more dangerous just to walk on the steets satisticly
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Post by WarrenS on Aug 9, 2009 13:14:01 GMT -5
My brother was a state trooper. He probably saw a lot more people messed up in car accidents than on motorcycles.
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Post by owenbrau on Aug 10, 2009 16:31:16 GMT -5
There are a lot more cars, too. Per driver/rider mile, motorcycles have a significantly higher fatality rate, almost 40 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles vs. less than 2 for cars.
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Post by WarrenS on Aug 11, 2009 13:32:43 GMT -5
You are right. That is why you are more likely to be traumatized by a car wreck.
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Post by harrywr2 on Aug 12, 2009 11:03:48 GMT -5
But is it fair to make a choice that could potentially add to that load of horrors they already have to deal with? Shouldn't we be trying to lighten their workload? Should we be ok with giving these heroic people even more of that psychological trauma? My own conscience tells me no. People smoke, drink, eat red meat, sky dive, rock climb, swim, boat, ice skate, roller skate, ski, wash themselves,make babies etc etc etc etc etc... They all involve unnecessary risk to health. And if none of that doesn't finish you off....then you run a good chance of spending your 'golden years' not even knowing your own name. My former next door neighbor was John Wayne's stunt double. Diabetes killed him in the end..slowly but surely he lost the circulation to his extremities...in the end he pigged out on ice cream sundaes hoping to finish himself off. Couldn't stand the idea of living in a wheelchair. To me the only reason to wear a helmet is to decrease the chances of living with serious brain damage. I figure if I get whacked hard enough by left turn larry with a helmet on to have brain damage then the rest of my body will be toast. I've also have been around long enough to see that as soon as the government starts in on outlawing 'unnecessary risk' there will be no stopping them. We'll all end up living in rubber rooms eating rabbit food.
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Post by owenbrau on Aug 12, 2009 11:21:15 GMT -5
I recall seeing a stat that a rider wearing a helmet that is killed in a crash has on average 3.7 fatal injuries.
I do wish that some would recognize that most of us advocating helmet use are not in favor of laws requiring it.
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Post by nickiemcnichols on Aug 12, 2009 19:34:49 GMT -5
Well, guys, I just have to respond to this lively discussion again. Some of you are going to think I am just plain weird, but please, at least read this with an open mind...I posted the same thing on Scooter Diva, in the same kind of discussion. Do NOT think about having an accident. DO think about arriving safely at your destination. Visualize this before you leave the driveway. Thoughts in mind produce in kind. Ask your Higher Power (whatever that is to you) to help you avoid danger. Listen to your intuition, yes, men have it too. I have listened to mine tell me not to take my usual route, and have avoided a very bad accident, more than once. Wear whatever safety gear makes you feel better, but do not rely on it alone. Hone whatever riding skills you can, but do not rely on them alone. Watch the idiot cagers with BOTH eyes, if you still have them, and listen with BOTH ears. Take it for granted that they are distracted, totally, and do not see you. You are invisible as far as they are concerned, most of them do not care of they kill you, it isn't illegal, unless they are drunk. I ride like they are TRYING to kill me. I also ride with 4 huge guardian angels that I created, and are strong enough to gently push me out of harm's way, or push a wayward car or truck away from me. But I do not rely on them alone, either. I share them with people who are riding with me. Sometimes, I send them on with another rider I am concerned about. I think that you guys have sometimes let ego and personality get the best of you during this discussion. Please, do not pick on each other, that only makes things worse. Let's all play nice, okay?
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Post by harrywr2 on Aug 12, 2009 23:08:08 GMT -5
I recall seeing a stat that a rider wearing a helmet that is killed in a crash has on average 3.7 fatal injuries. I do wish that some would recognize that most of us advocating helmet use are not in favor of laws requiring it. Nobody is saying helmet use is bad. What's bad is someone ridiculing another for the risk that they have made a decision to take. That was the premise of this thread...anyone who doesn't wear a full face helmet, jacket, pants and gloves regardless of conditions is a SQUID and needs some sort of counseling. I'm fully capable of evaluating what risks in life I will accept, those that I will take an action to minimize and those that I will avoid. I don't need self appointed donor card, nanny police to help me. Personally I'm not getting in water more then 3 feet deep without a personal flotation device...but thats because I'm a crappy swimmer. Someone wants to swim the english channel without a life vest...thats there business...
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Post by owenbrau on Aug 13, 2009 16:05:27 GMT -5
It would help your argument if I or someone else had said that, but we didn't. I think someone believing they are immortal, or can't crash because they are too good, too "experienced" to crash and therefore don't need protective gear are acting like a typical young squid, just replacing youthful arrogance with aged.
Why? There are some choices people make that merit ridicule. I think riding a motorcycle without a helmet is stupid.
On the other side, it often seems to me that threads that involve someone talking about improving their visibility, or protective gear, or other safety equipment, almost invariably get posts about how experience and "control" is better than any of those and even is a substitute for them, even ridiculing people for using them (not relying on, using).
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Post by mafunsalow on Aug 13, 2009 19:23:37 GMT -5
My former next door neighbor was John Wayne's stunt double. Cool !!! I recall seeing a stat that a rider wearing a helmet that is killed in a crash has on average 3.7 fatal injuries. I've seen stats like that in other things too. Technically can't you have only 1 fatal injury? Let's all play nice, okay? Okay, I'm sorry ;D ;D ;D It would help your argument if I or someone else had said that, but we didn't. I beg to differ. The juxt of the original post was about being covered head to toe with safety gear and handing out donor cards to those who weren't and a link to the squid site. There are some choices people make that merit ridicule. I think riding a motorcycle without a helmet is stupid. And if you look on a lot of scooter sites (I'm sure you've probably seen them) and even on this one every now and then (presently in the 250+ section) there are people who think that anyone riding a Chinese Scoot merits ridicule.They think they are dangerous deathtraps. They think riding Chinese scooters is stupid. Do you fall in this category? Did you make an informed decision before you bought your "dangerous" China scoot? Are you okay with your decision? Do you feel you should be judged as "stupid" ? I don't ride a Chinese scoot anymore. If there was one available with more power that I liked I would have gotten it in a heartbeat. But I stay on this site because of it's acceptence of all. We enjoy the ride. We share experiences and help each other as much as possible, regardless of what someone is riding or wearing.
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Post by owenbrau on Aug 13, 2009 20:09:33 GMT -5
I've seen stats like that in other things too. Technically can't you have only 1 fatal injury? You can't see having multiple injuries, several of which would be fatal all by themselves? But none of the discussion actually involved that, and I certainly never made that statement, so arguing as if I had is not really helpful. There are some choices people make that merit ridicule. I think riding a motorcycle without a helmet is stupid. And if you look on a lot of scooter sites (I'm sure you've probably seen them) and even on this one every now and then (presently in the 250+ section) there are people who think that anyone riding a Chinese Scoot merits ridicule.They think they are dangerous deathtraps. They think riding Chinese scooters is stupid. Do you fall in this category? You argue as if all such judgments are equal; they are not. There are such things as stupid actions, I am sure you would agree. Besides, they are perfectly free to say I'm stupid, I just think they are wrong. I'll bet a lot of Harley riders don't think much of the 250-scooters either, and I'm sure the 250 owners disagree.
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Post by JR on Aug 13, 2009 21:20:47 GMT -5
...Does it affect first responders? Sure I don't think that anyone gets "immune" to it but I don't see how they would take it more personal than a drowning , shooting car accident, suicide or fire. ... But is it fair to make a choice that could potentially add to that load of horrors they already have to deal with? Shouldn't we be trying to lighten their workload? Should we be ok with giving these heroic people even more of that psychological trauma? My own conscience tells me no. Sheri didn't say how her experience affected her personally, or how it affects her coworkers. That's personal information I don't feel comfortable even asking for on a forum like this, but that's also where the answer to this aspect of the debate lies; in the personal experience of people who've lived it. The rest of us can only guess whether unnecessary head splatters are worse to deal with than the other horrible experiences you mentioned. Sheri described the details of what she's seen, and they sound horrific to me. But if you're the dead guy, you're not the one having to deal with it. You're not the traumatized child who might have seen it happen. Does anyone here know anyone who is an emergency responder who doesn't wear a helmet? Or a hospital trauma worker? Or anyone who's lost a loved one because their loved one didn't wear a helmet? I think those people's perspectives are important. Do they ride without helmets? Of course I can't speak for emergency responders, but I think it's plausible that they might see these head splatters as more difficult to deal with because they might have been avoided but weren't, by someone's voluntary choice. I think I personally would find that very difficult to reconcile. (I also think helmet laws could be persuasively argued from this point of view alone, though again I'm not arguing in favor of that.) We will each make our own choices. By pressing this issue, my goal is to encourage everyone to make more informed choices when it comes to helmet use. Consider the emergency responders, witnesses, and the people who love you. Some of these things you've said are good points but I'm still like Harry I make my decisions based upon the situation I'm riding at. If I'm going 3 blocks to get a soda pop and just jump on in a T-shirt and shorts then so be it. If I take a nice long country ride on a seldom traveled road then I may or may not use my helmet depends on if I want to enjoy the scenery at 25mph or if I want to cruise at 55mph. When doing serious longer distant rides at higher speeds for longer distances then I put the helmet on and gladly wear it. As far as seeing the things that responders and police men do, I've seen a lot worse it's called war and believe me there are a lot of those sights that you want to forget. I watched my 13 year sister git hit by a car on an old Cushman Eagle scooter, the tank explode and 99.8% of her body burned. Had another sister that played chicken with a semi in a Toyota Corolla and the only reason she is alive today is she did NOT have her seat belt on. Cut the top of the car off and she survived because she was thrown from the car. All these things have not changed my own perspective of things or my decision process. Heck I actually saw an accident where the helmet was the one thing that almost killed the kid not the accident itself as the strap became entangled and he had already turned blue by the time someone cut it with a pocket knife. You just don't know or have anyway of knowing what will happen in life, you just try to make good decisions and sometimes one just has to have a little luck on his side!! LOL Wearing a helmet, not wearing a helmet, a personal choice, yep and this is America you have the right to think anyway you want, stupid, dumb, smart whatever!! Freedom of choice and freedom of opinions right or wrong just makes this place the best place on earth to live!! Heck in my opinion, opinions are like the one thing we all have too!! JRR
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Post by jprestonian on Aug 16, 2009 19:37:04 GMT -5
Hey, ride your Chinese scooter drunk, without a helmet. I won't feel a thing. And you won't have spent a dime of my money, either.
Geez, I'm turning into a Republican. .
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Post by JR on Sept 6, 2009 23:38:44 GMT -5
Hey, ride your Chinese scooter drunk, without a helmet. I won't feel a thing. And you won't have spent a dime of my money, either. Geez, I'm turning into a Republican. . Nope Republicans don't ride kymco's they're pices of junk!
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Post by jprestonian on Sept 7, 2009 12:49:50 GMT -5
Nope Republicans don't ride kymco's they're pices of junk!
:lol:
Yeah, you wingers prefer those Communist-built bikes. Funny, that. .
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Post by flyangler on Sept 7, 2009 18:17:35 GMT -5
Luv my piece of junk.
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Post by nickiemcnichols on Sept 7, 2009 20:11:56 GMT -5
My, it's become sarcastically political here, hasn't it? Can we just shut this thread down before somebody gets offended?
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Post by Alsenor on Sept 30, 2009 16:04:24 GMT -5
You falling down fall just as far. hit just as hard. Actually, at slower speeds you fall at a more acute angle to the ground and are more likely to crack your skull than at higher speeds, which gives you a flatter approach angle to the ground and makes you slide more. Roadburn is not so much fun either of course...
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Post by Ixty on Oct 2, 2009 1:29:09 GMT -5
For me this is a no-brainer so I will post it (I didn't bother to read all the pages before):
1) Fix your bike 2) Insure yourself 2) Buy good gear cause you may be slammed and sliding (not your fault - or could be!) 3) Enjoy the ride!
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Post by Alsenor on Oct 3, 2009 10:51:51 GMT -5
OK, here is my 2c on the subject of mandatory helmet laws. All the arguments in favor of it make sense to most sensible, mature people. HOWEVER - just from my own perspective, I have to disagree with the "mandatory" part. And here is my reasoning: I have taken up riding scooters again at my advanced age because I remember the feeling of rolling through the countryside, with the fresh air blowing in my face and messing my hair, and seeing, smelling and feeling the surrounding beauty of nature, and I wanted to experience all that again. Imprisoned behind a full-faced helmet I cannot experience that. To have this experience of my youth I have to take the calculated risk of riding a two-wheeler - which is allowed by law. Why am I not allowed to take the equally calculated risk of keeping my nose in the open? There is no logic in allowing one risk, but not the other.
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Post by owenbrau on Oct 6, 2009 18:05:27 GMT -5
You falling down fall just as far. hit just as hard. Actually, at slower speeds you fall at a more acute angle to the ground and are more likely to crack your skull than at higher speeds, which gives you a flatter approach angle to the ground and makes you slide more. Roadburn is not so much fun either of course... Uh, no. That's not how the physics work. If you are going faster, you hit the ground with the exact same vertical velocity, with the addition of a higher horizontal component.
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Post by owenbrau on Oct 6, 2009 18:09:28 GMT -5
OK, here is my 2c on the subject of mandatory helmet laws. All the arguments in favor of it make sense to most sensible, mature people. HOWEVER - just from my own perspective, I have to disagree with the "mandatory" part. And here is my reasoning: I have taken up riding scooters again at my advanced age because I remember the feeling of rolling through the countryside, with the fresh air blowing in my face and messing my hair, and seeing, smelling and feeling the surrounding beauty of nature, and I wanted to experience all that again. Imprisoned behind a full-faced helmet I cannot experience that.To have this experience of my youth I have to take the calculated risk of riding a two-wheeler - which is allowed by law. Why am I not allowed to take the equally calculated risk of keeping my nose in the open?There is no logic in allowing one risk, but not the other. As I've said, I do not approve of mandatory helmet laws. I believe we should be allowed to take such risks if we so choose (I do prefer that people acknowledge they are taking a risk). And as I also said, unless I missed something, no one here is demanding mandatory helmet use.
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Post by Alsenor on Oct 7, 2009 11:47:16 GMT -5
Actually, at slower speeds you fall at a more acute angle to the ground and are more likely to crack your skull than at higher speeds, which gives you a flatter approach angle to the ground and makes you slide more. Roadburn is not so much fun either of course... Uh, no. That's not how the physics work. If you are going faster, you hit the ground with the exact same vertical velocity, with the addition of a higher horizontal component. I respectfully disagree with your physics interpretation. Practice has taught us that in this case the angle of impact is of greater significance than other physical laws. If the forward motion is greater you will face more road burn and less vertical impact. Need to worry more about posts and trees you may hit on your slide (or roll).
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Post by owenbrau on Oct 7, 2009 18:09:34 GMT -5
Uh, no. That's not how the physics work. If you are going faster, you hit the ground with the exact same vertical velocity, with the addition of a higher horizontal component. I respectfully disagree with your physics interpretation. Practice has taught us that in this case the angle of impact is of greater significance than other physical laws. If the forward motion is greater you will face more road burn and less vertical impact. Need to worry more about posts and trees you may hit on your slide (or roll). If you are sitting still, and fall over, your head will reach a velocity a velocity of just under 18ft/sec, assuming your head falls 5 feet. In practice, it's actually a little less, because your head isn't free-falling, as you are actually falling sideways like a smokestack collapsing. If you are moving forward at 25mph, your head still is going down at that 18ft/sec, PLUS your forward velocity. You'd hit at an angle, but the vertical component is still 18 ft/sec. Moving forward does not diminish the speed at which you fall. And in that kind of impact, your body is effectively free-falling. And of course, the combined impact is rather higher overall, even though most is in forward motion; there will still be some drag and therefore rotational energy imparted to a helmet hitting at an angle as well. You seem to be assuming the same velocity in both cases.
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Post by JR on Oct 7, 2009 20:43:38 GMT -5
Well that's why I use my super duper ugly helmet when I ride simply because it's so ugly that it reduces the free falling effect! JRR
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Post by Alsenor on Oct 7, 2009 23:23:07 GMT -5
If you are sitting still, and fall over... The only thing I can suggest is that you try to bang your head at a wall (or the ground) at a right angle, and then at a very flat angle. Then you may notice the difference between a square hit and a glancing blow.Meanwhile, lets stay out of crashes at any speed and impact angle.
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