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Post by harrywr2 on Jul 26, 2009 12:54:01 GMT -5
CIn fact, it seems to me that it's the people making claims about "control" and "experience" that seem to think it is making them "safe", not us. 50% of all motorcycle accidents occur in the first 5 months of riding. A helmet increases your survival rate in the event of an accident 37%. Defining a 'squid' as someone who doesn't wear all the gear all the time is just plain offensive. Plenty of drunks wearing 'all the gear all the time', plenty of riders with less then 5 months experience wearing 'all the gear all the time', plenty of unlicensed riders wearing 'all the gear all the time', plenty of riders with a history of wreckless and irresponsible driving wearing 'all the gear all the time'. I don't drink and drive, I have more then 5 months experience, I have a license, I've taken a training course, I've had one speeding ticket in my entire life(5 miles over on I-70 in Indiana). If I throw on a half helmet, shorts and a T-shirt to ride the 1.2 miles to the corner store in a 30 MPH zone without a single major intersection that I have driven more then 4,000 times it doesn't make me a squid. It makes me an adult capable of weighing 'risk' for myself. Would I throw a fit if my novice rider wife did the same thing...absolutely. She suffers from the biggest risk factor of all, lack of experience.
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Post by mafunsalow on Jul 26, 2009 13:08:58 GMT -5
True, everyone should be free to choose their fate, They should also realize that their choices do have an effect on others, whether they want it to or not. I choose to limit the exposure to avoidable problems where ever and however possible. So by the logic you present here it appears that because you wear all the gear you are almost invincible.Don't be lulled into that false sense of security.. going back to an old thread that covered this subject , I studied the accident statistics in my state. In 2006 there were 3889 accidents of which 185 were responsible for 187 fatalities (179 drivers, 8 passengers) Of the 187 fatalities 99 (52.9%) wore a helmet ,84 (44.9%)no helmet and 4(2.1%) listed as unknown Injuries - 2,204 (58.8%) wore helmet, 1,410 (37.6%)no helmet and 137 (3.7%) listed as unknown I know statistics are formed to show whatever the statistician wants it to , but I determined that you really are no safer either way and you become a burden upon others either way so that moots out your burden on the state and others argument . The only thing that will keep you safe is you and your awareness. Yes, if you survive you may have less road rash but that's about it. Remember though sliding wears away material. After about 10-12 feet your just as vulnerable as anyone. I'm not promoting either way , as I choose different each time I go whether I wear no hat or half for local rides. Three quarter or modular for major roads or highways. Armor jacket ,depends on temperature. Also it does not bother me if I go to a state where a helmet law is mandatory. I don't like that argument about "being told to wear it" for crying out loud you are told how fast you can go, when to stop when not to pass , that you7 have to have insurance and that your vehicle is road worthy etc.. I would not like to wear a life jacket when I'm jet skiing. But it is stated that I must so I do. It is required safety gear. Yet I sideswiped a sandbar at 80 mph the other day and I'm sitting here with broken ribs from the impact, go figure.
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 26, 2009 15:37:17 GMT -5
Mafunsaslow- seriously, where are you getting the idea we are claiming that wearing gear makes us invincible? Please point it out, because not one of us is saying that. We wear gear because we recognize that we aren't invincible.
Nor are we saying you should be forced to wear one. Also, do remember that of those injured wearing a helmet, a goodly number would instead be dead had they not worn one. You are also wrong about sliding. I slid more than 200 feet with only minor road rash because of my gear. And even awareness isn't always enough (can you point out where any of us said wearing gear meant we didn't need to be aware?); in that accident, my rear tire blew while going through a sweeping turn. Brand new tire, installed the day before. Cause? The shop appears to have pinched the tube between the rim and the bead.
Harry- Nor did I say not wearing gear made you a squid. I said thinking you don't need to because you are too experienced to crash is the same kind of mindset.
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Post by mafunsalow on Jul 26, 2009 19:11:07 GMT -5
Mafunsaslow- seriously, where are you getting the idea we are claiming that wearing gear makes us invincible? Please point it out, because not one of us is saying that. We wear gear because we recognize that we aren't invincible. Okay, seriously dude .. "I read somewhere that you should only expose the amount of skin that you are willing to loose. LOL, I'm covered from head to toe." "I laugh at the guys I see riding Harleys in a t-shirt and jeans, no helmet, while I'm wearing full gear" Nor are we saying you should be forced to wear one. That's true and has been stated several times. Right before stating how much safer it is to wear one or you'll be peeled off the ground. Also, do remember that of those injured wearing a helmet, a goodly number would instead be dead had they not worn one. that's a debateable point as we don't know the extent of "injuries" ie; how many are head leg hand etc.. You are also wrong about sliding. I slid more than 200 feet with only minor road rash because of my gear. And even awareness isn't always enough (can you point out where any of us said wearing gear meant we didn't need to be aware?); in that accident, my rear tire blew while going through a sweeping turn. Brand new tire, installed the day before. Cause? The shop appears to have pinched the tube between the rim and the bead. A crash at 50mph will send you 70 feet in the first second or two (but I guess I don't have to tell you that )Denim lasts about 4 feet, Normal motorcycle grade jacket goes about 16ft. so unless you are wearing kevlar or competition style leather you're gonna get burned. Now my question to you is , 200 ft I'm guessing you rolled more than slide if you only got minor road rash, assuming you were'nt wearing kevlar or comp grade leather. Did you have any other injuries? I've often wondered if you fair better sliding or rollin not actually tumbling because that would mean not in control..
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Post by mafunsalow on Jul 26, 2009 21:35:49 GMT -5
Earlier in this thread mafunsalow said: . Love it when people put words in my mouth, No where did I say or imply that ATGATT made me invincible or lulls me into a false sense of security. umm.. excuse me ?? Put words in your mouth ,I don't think so! Aren't you the one handing out business cards with organ donor information on it to people who don't dress to your safety standards ? Did you not say "I read somewhere that you should only expose the amount of skin that you are willing to loose. LOL, I'm covered from head to toe." To me that implies along with the cards that you think you are almost invincible and are suffering from a false sense of security unless you are as I stated earlier wearing kevlar and competition grade leather. this whole thing started because you wonder what people are thinking riding without protection or ATGATT and that makes them organ donors but when someone answers your question and it is because of comfort or whatever their decision that don't want to they are stupid. But of course the fact that in 2006 in Pa, of the fatalities in motorcycle accidents 52.9% were wearing a helmet as opposed to the 44.9% who weren't is completely dismissed . The injury percentages were even further apart. Wouldn't one assume that those wearing helmets felt more invincible and would take more chances or do you derive something else from DOT statistics?
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Post by harrywr2 on Jul 26, 2009 22:10:59 GMT -5
Since my crystal ball won't let me see what will happen in the 1.2 mile jaunt to the store, I will exercise my option to use ATGATT. Lemmie see..my 1.2 mile route to the store is traversed by no fewer then 100 bicyclists per day..closer to 500 on the weekends...all wearing shorts and a T-shirt..all traveling at 25 to 30 MPH. The road is design rated at 50MPH plus...but because it is a favorite of bicyclists the speed limit was dropped to 30 MPH. In 12 years not a single bicyclist has been seriously injured on that stretch of road. I'm not traveling any faster then they are...my brakes are way way better then theirs. I actually live on the road...so I travel it 10 times more then any of those bicyclists. But no...the holier then though set wants to insist I'm a squid. I'm 50 years old...I've been to a place called war...I've been in an airplane crash. I spent 12 hours in surgery without the benefit of 'general anesthesia". I also own a $450 full face helmet which I wear when I feel conditions warrant. I don't need some clown handing out 'organ donor' cards to me.
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 26, 2009 22:38:15 GMT -5
Aside from the fact that one of those quotes isn't from me, how does that disprove what I said? How is that saying we are invincible?
Strawman argument. Aside from the fact that no one said gear makes you perfectly safe, no one has said that not wearing it is a guarantee of disaster.
No, actually it's not. The actual number may be a point of discussion, but the simple fact of the matter is, you are more likely to survive a crash if you are wearing a helmet.
I don't know where you got your numbers on slides/etc., but I slid about 125 feet, wearing through the pocket of my jeans and the first layer of my wallet, as well as seriously scuffing the elbow of my leather jacket and both boots (primary points of contact). After that, I hit an on-coming car, and tumbled the rest of the way. Given the damage to my gear, and my helmet, had I been relying on my experience,I'd have died that morning.
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 26, 2009 22:44:00 GMT -5
Harry, comparing scooters to bicycles is, frankly, stupid. You're not helping your argument. You don't think you need to wear gear? Fine, have fun. No one here is telling you you have to. But are you seriously trying to tell us that you only ride at around 15 mph, and never in the flow of traffic?
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Post by mafunsalow on Jul 26, 2009 23:09:01 GMT -5
Oh yeah I'm the deluded one. Never said I was a great rider. I wear a helmet about 80% of the time I wear slider jeans almost all the time I wear gloves all the time boots most of the time and armor jacket when it is less than 80 outside. But I decide what to wear no one else. I am a registered organ donor ,again my choice not yours. I don't need to go to advriders . But I am also under no illusion that all the gear in the world will save me from road rash or worse. My armor denim jacket will protect me on impact to the ground, providing the armor hits the ground first, does it mean my elbow won't break ,doubt it. Will the armor protect my shoulder from seperating .. will the denim protect me from road rash , well at high speed slide it's good for four feet before it starts to shred, the slider jeans are kevlar and have more tolerance. But again I understand this and the risks involved with riding. Just as my friends that never wear a helmet or gloves etc.. they understand the risks. Knowledge is responsibility. Syntroxis, i have no problem with your ATGATT. You want to wear a bubble or ride nekkid I really don't care it just seems you used your original question as a stepping stone to preach ATGATT .
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Post by harrywr2 on Jul 26, 2009 23:32:48 GMT -5
Harry, comparing scooters to bicycles is, frankly, stupid. You're not helping your argument. You don't think you need to wear gear? Fine, have fun. No one here is telling you you have to. But are you seriously trying to tell us that you only ride at around 15 mph, and never in the flow of traffic? Here moron...this was across the street from my mothers house. Better sleep with your gear..never know when a meteor is going to crash thru the roof. astronomyspace.suite101.com/article.cfm/death_from_above___meteorsBe safe...a meteor is coming for you tonight!!!!!! It's gonna kill you...you can't control it!!!!
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Post by mafunsalow on Jul 27, 2009 5:21:52 GMT -5
Aside from the fact that one of those quotes isn't from me, how does that disprove what I said? How is that saying we are invincible? Your laughing at people wearing tshirt jeans and no helmet because you are wearing full gear.. duh! Why else would you be laughing at them ? Strawman argument. Aside from the fact that no one said gear makes you perfectly safe, no one has said that not wearing it is a guarantee of disaster. Again..Your laughing at people wearing tshirt jeans and no helmet because you are wearing full gear.. duh! Why else would you be laughing at them ? No, actually it's not. The actual number may be a point of discussion, but the simple fact of the matter is, you are more likely to survive a crash if you are wearing a helmet. Agreed to that fact , but I'd be interested on finding stats on the effects of that survival. Loss of limbs paralysis etc.. I don't know where you got your numbers on slides/etc., but I slid about 125 feet, wearing through the pocket of my jeans and the first layer of my wallet, as well as seriously scuffing the elbow of my leather jacket and both boots (primary points of contact). After that, I hit an on-coming car, and tumbled the rest of the way. Given the damage to my gear, and my helmet, had I been relying on my experience,I'd have died that morning. well it was probably the red cape and big "S" on your chest that saved ya ;D Here's a copy of the Fabric abrasion test conducted by a motorcycle magazine Drag Test "For the Drag Test, samples were stitched to a bag that held a 75-pound sandbag inside a milk crate, then dragged behind a pickup truck..." New, 100% Cotton Denim Jeans: 3' 10" Senior Balistic Nylon: 3' 10" Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz/sq. ft. 4' 3" Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz/sq ft. 4' 4" Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 4' 5" Cordura Nylon Type 440 18' 3" Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 22' 1" Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz//sq. ft. 86' 0" "For the Taber Test, the specimen was mounted on a rotating platform and scuffed by two rubber-emery grinding wheels." The numbers represent the number of revolutions until the fabric totally fails. A vacuum clears debris. Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 168 New 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 225 Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 506 Cordura Nylon, Type 440 559 Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz./sq. ft. 564 Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz./sq. ft. 750 Senior Ballistic Nylon 817 Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz./sq. ft. 2600 "Finally, protection from road abrasion cannot be guaranteed by a materials abrasion resistance alone. A jacket may have panels of highly abrasion-resistant materials, yet if low-quality stitching joins those panels and the seams come apart upon impact or during a slide, then the abrasion resistance of the panels could count for nothing. Furthermore, an ill-fitting garment may ride up in a slide, contorting the body and exposing the skin. And the best jacket in the world, left unzipped and/or unsnapped, won't give riders the protection they pay for. When it comes to safety, the issues are more complex than just the abrasion resistance of materials." and: [NOTE: In the next RiderCourse Register, Motoport - a maker of all-Kevlar gear - claimed that there have been significant advances in Kevlar technology. Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber Style 713 is now obsolete. Modern fabric is now a Kevlar-Lycra-nylon blend woven in a weave similar to the fiber weave of leather that increases strength and allows the fabric to strech. According to FMS (Swiss company used for independent tests), this Kevlar is superior in tear and tensile strength than leather and nylon. Abrasion testing shows that this Kevlar is on par with leather. The article doesn't describe which leather though - presumably competition grade.]
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 27, 2009 6:05:31 GMT -5
How does that equal I think I am perfectly safe? Did you even bother reading the context of the statement? Him on a "real" motorcycle wearing nothing and me on a 150 scooter wearing full gear? Heck, that's funny.
I've seen those tests before. From your tone, I'm assuming you're saying I'm lying. But their test method (the dragging one) doesn't seem to match real-world performance. People wearing jeans aren't instantly denuded in crashes.
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 27, 2009 6:06:06 GMT -5
Harry- let us know when you want to stop acting like an ass and continue the discussion like a reasonable person.
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Post by JR on Jul 27, 2009 6:20:30 GMT -5
OK so all of you got to wear the gear folks and it's gonna save you consider this;
I had a 13 year sister that was a true tom boy at heart. My father had bought an old 40's model Cushman Eagle scooter and the first thing every day that summer she did was fire it up and ride!! Man she loved that scooter!! We lived up on a hill and she was heading down the driveway and the brakes failed, she ran out into the road in front of the County Deputy Sheriff's car and he hit her, tank exploded burning 99.8% of her body!!
Now no amount of gear or helmet could help that in fact the clothing was a bad thing as they spent 6 hours in surgery among other things to remove it with a surgeon's knife! Now when I say burned I mean she lost her lips, ears, eyelids and nose! When they removed the burnt flesh from he legs they went to the bone it was so deep!!
In that day when insurance was really insurance my father flew her all over the world to as we said have her rebuilt she was fortunate enough to get the best medical care this planet had to offer and little by little these things were replaced but just like a wrecked car it's never the same.
So the picture of the little dab of road rash just point blank ain't crap compared to what she went through or the horrors of being burned. You want to see some real hurt you take a look at someone who has had half their face burned off then tell me about hurt! Was any of it her fault? Was it the Deputy Sheriff's fault? At 13 did she know how to avoid this? Would any amount of gear helped her? A safety driving course?
Had me a motorcycle crash once, was behind a teenager who put his blinker on to turn left and decided to turn right instead. Broadsided him flew over the car, broke left hand and four fingers on right hand. Teenager swore up and down to the attending officer that he had his right blinker on and the only thing that saved me was two witnesses at the intersection that saw the whole thing! I'm sitting there listening to this smart mouthed cop tell me how I screwed up with these broken things and bleeding while this teenager who happened to be the County Judges son scream about his car but after listening to the witness statements and checking his car which BTW the right blinker did not even work I finally was "let off" without a ticket. One of the witnesses called my wife as the officer never asked me if I ever needed any medical attention either! Got a lawyer moved out of the county and finally won a settlement after two years!
Had on helmet, and fully clothed that day and would have any of that prevented what happened? Broken hands and fingers were from a natural instinct to try to brace yourself when you are flying through the air and the pavement is waiting on you!!
Now the funny twist of fate as far as my sister goes after over 10 years of heart wrenching and painful plastic and cosmetic surgery she decided to come home from college one night to see my folks and fell asleep at the wheel drove off the road and died 12 days later. And BTW she had her seat belt on!! Helmets and seat belts the age old argument and the funny thing about seat belts is you and I will get a ticket for not wearing one but yet not one of our school buses in this state is equipped with one!! Now figure that one out!!
Helmets that's a funny thing too as back when a lot of states had mandatory laws there was one state that bordered my home state that the law was so vague it only read "that a head protection device must be worn" It did not in any place in the statute say you had to wear it on your head!! It was nothing to see one of the Harley groups riding down the road with a helmet strapped to their leg!!LOL
Like a lot of states now their law was taken off the books! There are reasons these laws have been stricken-ed down and you can look that up for yourself!! In my state I am not required to wear one but any one under 18 is, figure that one out!
Me I'm like Harry, had an all expense paid vacation to the thing called war, that good one in the 60's, survived a motorcycle crash, heck even got knocked off of a telephone pole and fell 30 feet! I wear what I consider appropriate for my riding conditions and just don't want anyone or any law telling me what I should or should not do. Affect others hmmmm don't really see it, if I want to wear a T-shirt and sandals which BTW I don't, (I'm too ugly LOL) and it results in a worse scenario for me then the only one it affected was me, I'm the one that made the decision and I'm the one who has got to live with it!
I just don't want anyone telling me how to make that decision!! JRR
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 27, 2009 6:23:27 GMT -5
I keep asking, but no one answers. Who said this? Who said the gear will keep them perfectly safe? And who is saying you must wear anything? Anyone? Buehler?
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Post by WarrenS on Jul 27, 2009 8:22:34 GMT -5
I took a spill while riding a little electric scooter on the sidewalk. The steering came loose and I lost control. I flew over the handlebars and did a tuck and roll. I was able to control my roll to where I wanted to go. I am 70 years old.
I participated in several anti- helmet law rallies. We got it removed. We had a state Senator who is a biker. He helped us get the law changed. He recently completed 1 million miles on his Harley and donated it to the Harley museum.
You can either learn from your own experience or learn from others. It is less painful to learn from others. ;D
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Post by harrywr2 on Jul 27, 2009 11:11:33 GMT -5
Harry- let us know when you want to stop acting like an ass and continue the discussion like a reasonable person. A reasonable person doesn't think they are wiser then all others. People take hundreds of risks in life everyday. The bathtub injury statistics are appalling. Heck, my Mrs's tripped in the garden and broke her arm. My sisters a school teacher, she slipped and broke her hip in the classroom. My uncle was in the hospital for some minor surgery..the nurse forgot to put up the side on his bed...he was pretty drugged up fell out a bed, broke a rib that punctured his lung. A helmet is designed to protect your head from impact at the same velocity it would be moving if you fell off a 6 foot ladder. Have you ever been on a ladder without a helmet? There is no such thing as a 'no risk' activity. Life gets pretty scary when someone appoints themselves as the ultimate authority as to which risks are acceptable. Gonna Ban sleeping? School Teaching? Gardening? Bathing? Ladders? All of them carry the risk of injury. Who gets to decide what is and is not an acceptable level of risk? I live in a country where people generally aren't allowed to appoint themselves to positions dictating how others should live.
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Post by erictheviking666 on Jul 27, 2009 14:17:55 GMT -5
Why can't we agree to disagree? All of you who wear your safety ALL the time are never going to convince the rest of us who don't no matter what you say or do. I suggest if you want to wear layers of safety gear go right ahead. But if some of us don't then just leave it alone!! You wear your stuff and we will ride in whatever gear we want to wear for ourselves! LIVE AND LET LIVE!!
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 27, 2009 14:18:55 GMT -5
Seems to me the only thinking he is wiser here is you. You won't argue what any of us actually say. Who here is saying you should be required to wear a helmet, or anything else? I keep asking, and you keep ignoring that. I don't think helmets should be mandatory. I don't think seatbelts should be either. I think you are an idiot if you don't wear a helmet when riding (even bicycles), or wear a seatbelt when driving. You have the right to be an idiot, if you choose. I have a right to give my opinion, too. So tell me, who is trying to dictate here? I'm not telling you that you have to wear a helmet, so it isn't me.
What's really funny is that most of your arguments, about there being no such thing as a "risk free" activity (another argument none of us have made) actually make my point better than they do your own.
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Post by mafunsalow on Jul 27, 2009 16:10:20 GMT -5
I keep asking, but no one answers. Who said this? Who said the gear will keep them perfectly safe? Anyone? Buehler? Buehler? now that's funny ! Okay I'll bite, actually in those exact words no one. It is the inferences made that make that the conclusion. If someone is handing out cards with organ donor information on it to people not wearing gear by someone who is covered head to toe that is inferring that the person covered will not get hurt. And then followed by statements such as Make sure you wear a helmet when you ride so when you go down, you can experience the exquisite pain of flesh being peeled from your body, the long agonizing period of recovery....... naw, better yet, don't even wear a helmet - allow Darwin to do his thing. being hot is a valid reason for not wearing gear, more power to you. But, I won't feel the least bit bad when they peel either of you up off the pavement WHEN the accident happens. not wearing a helmet, etc., is stupid. If you choose to sacrifice your skin, rock on. Each one of those statements is basically implying superiority because of gear worn. I could give examples on both sides of the fence here. I knew people that died wearing and not wearing. I know people paralyzed both wearing and not wearing. I know one person that now has the mentality of an 8 year old , wearing a helmet that had a crack in it which in of itself is a huge mistake no matter how you look at it. And all of this chatter has been on the assumption of a low or high end slide. If you get creamed at speed by another vehicle all that gear is just going to make it easier to identify the body.There will be little sliding but more flailing and wailing. That is the inherent risk of two wheel riding. Owen, I could not take the laughing at Harley riders out of context it was only one sentence. As you rephrased it ,yes I see the humor in it there. Also, sorry if you find my post tonal, most definately not meant to be that. Although some statements made about the intellect of other riders is uncalled for I enjoy your input as you present good arguments for debate not actual arguments. And in no way did I even think you were lying. Don't know where that came from but I apologize if it came across that way which evidently it did, not intentional.
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 27, 2009 16:39:23 GMT -5
Not one of those can realistically be said to mean that wearing the gear makes you perfectly safe. One or two are even more than a bit obnoxious. But not one means that wearing the gear makes you safe, just safer. Not one means that wearing it prevents accidents, either.
There have been times when I don't wear certain things because of heat, even losing the jacket on occasion over the years. I will never voluntarily ride without a helmet, jeans, boots, and gloves. In those circumstances, I am trading off some protection for increased comfort, among other things figuring that I would be more likely to have problems if I overheat. But please remember my real argument; I am not saying gear is more important than training and experience. Nor is experience a good replacement for protection. No one is good enough to validly declare that they don't need to wear gear because of how good they are or how much experience they have. That's why I said that attitude is similar to that of the typical squid; they don't think they are going to ever fall either.
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Post by harrywr2 on Jul 27, 2009 18:22:43 GMT -5
No one is good enough to validly declare that they don't need to wear gear because of how good they are or how much experience they have. Who here said anything about wearing 'no gear'. It surely was not me. I have 3 helmets...I choose which one I will wear based on what my riding profile will be for that ride. For me over 45 MPH is full face, proper riding jacket, jeans, boots and gloves regardless of temp. 30-45 MPh is either full or 3/4 face, jacket, jeans, boots and gloves depending on temp. 30 MPH it really depends where I am going. If I'm going down main street then it's at least the 3/4 helmet, jacket, boots and gloves. Really hard to drive 12 seconds ahead downtown. Driving 12 seconds ahead and not following closer then 4 seconds is the mitigation strategy I use to avoid becoming a statistic. Unfortunately, for novices who have not yet gotten to the point that all the control inputs for the bike are automatic...they can't drive 12 seconds ahead. Not a criticism...it just takes some serious riding time to get to the point that the mechanics of riding are automatic and your focus is diverted from external hazards. 30 MPH is 44 feet per second. If I am driving 12 seconds ahead at 30 MPH then I have 528 feet to react. The standard on the MSF course is to be able to stop from 20 MPH in 23 feet. 30 MPH it's about 40 feet.
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Post by mafunsalow on Jul 27, 2009 18:42:11 GMT -5
I think you are an idiot if you don't wear a helmet when riding why?
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Post by owenbrau on Jul 27, 2009 18:46:45 GMT -5
Because brains don't heal. It doesn't take a great deal of trauma to cause permanent damage. Simply falling over, you can hit hard enough to cause severe injury or death.
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Post by JR on Jul 28, 2009 11:33:49 GMT -5
Well looks like the original threadster has abandoned ship!! LOL Now I wonder in this scenario who needs the gear and who needs the helmet? LOL JRR
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sheri
Big Dawg
Paramedic for 25 years with NYC,retired
Posts: 16
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Post by sheri on Aug 1, 2009 15:59:28 GMT -5
Here is my .02 cents. I spent over 20 years scraping eyeballs, brains, ears, lips, teeth, noses, tongue rings recently, hair, tongues amongst other body parts from the road.
Sher
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Post by Chi Makwa on Aug 7, 2009 3:16:42 GMT -5
Bless ya Sheri. A bone for your service and insight. I think many opponents of mandatory helmet laws consider themselves to be the only ones they put at risk when they don't wear a helmet. (That's not pointed at anyone in particular here, so please don't think I'm referring to your post, whoever you are. It's a pretty common attitude.) Aside from the people who love you having to live with the potential results of your decision, there are other ways you can harm people by smashing your braincase open. Sadly, many people can be seriously traumatized by witnessing a splattering skull, or having to scrape up the remains. What might happen to the child passenger in a car that an un-helmeted biker lands on? (Who will pay for this child's therapy?) Or to the bystander watching it happen from the sidewalk? How are law enforcement officers, EMS, and other emergency responders affected by responding to accidents involving splattered biker skulls? Unless you've walked in their shoes, how can you fully appreciate what you might be about to put them through? I'm not saying that bikers should be required to wear helmets. (Honestly, I still don't know how I feel on that issue.) I'm saying that your decision to ride without a helmet affects more people than you. Of course experience makes much safer riders, but I simply don't believe that any rider can ever be experienced enough to be immune to the harm caused by the truly crazy drivers (drunk, raged, or simply careless and incompetent). In 2006 there were 3889 accidents of which 185 were responsible for 187 fatalities (179 drivers, 8 passengers) Of the 187 fatalities 99 (52.9%) wore a helmet ,84 (44.9%)no helmet and 4(2.1%) listed as unknown Injuries - 2,204 (58.8%) wore helmet, 1,410 (37.6%)no helmet and 137 (3.7%) listed as unknown I know statistics are formed to show whatever the statistician wants it to , but I determined that you really are no safer either way and you become a burden upon others either way so that moots out your burden on the state and others argument. Oops! You just got caught in the statistical quagmire. Yeah, statistics can be complex, and the statistician who lacks integrity can use their numbers to argue just about anything, so it makes sense that your interpretation of these numbers is a bit confused. If just over half of the fatalities involve helmeted riders and just under half were not helmeted, that means nothing on its own. It does not mean your odds are even whether you wear one or not. The way to make that statistic meaningful is to compare that ratio to the ratio of riders overall who wear and don't wear helmets. How many fatalities occur per 100,000 rider-miles among people wearing helmets vs. not wearing helmets? That would tell us how much more risk we're taking by not wearing helmets vs. wearing them. For every mile we ride with or without wearing a helmet, what are the odds we will die in a crash (fall or collision)? Are those numbers different? Another way of looking at this: If 1/4 of riders don't wear helmets (I made that number up) and 3/4 do wear helmets, but nearly 50% of fatalities occur among the minority who don't wear helmets, that would clearly indicate that not wearing a helmet is riskier than wearing one. (I made up those numbers because they are missing from your stats, and I don't know what the true numbers are. But they are the kind of numbers that would actually bring meaning to your statistics.) I'm a research neuroscientist with a PhD (in nutrition, if you can work that one out...), and as such I've had to study statistics in depth. I don't know whether that gives me more credibility in your eyes (whoever you are), but I have learned a lot of the pitfalls people can fall into when it comes to poorly presented statistics. The number we're looking for is called an odds ratio. Again, that just means what is the risk for each mile ridden with and without a helmet that you will die in a crash. That would be the meaningful number, and that's the number that's missing in this thread. Another complicating factor to consider is whether riders who wear helmets are in general more safety conscious than those who don't, or vice versa. I don't know the answer to that, though there seems to be a great deal of safety awareness among people on both sides of this issue. But we are all also ScootDawgs, and as such we ourselves might actually be more concerned about safety than the average rider. We love our scoots, and we want to know more and share more information related to scooters, including safety, than riders in general. A statistician would say that we, therefore, are not a representative sample. In other words, our opinions here in this online community might be quite different from the opinions held by riders in general. I've seen a number of bumper stickers that say "loud pipes save lives." I'd be willing to bet that helmets save a lot more, and when I see those stickers I want to ask the driver if s/he wears a helmet on their loud bike.
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Post by WarrenS on Aug 7, 2009 9:17:29 GMT -5
If I avoid crashing and don't split my head open, how does whether I wear a helmet or not affect others? When I flew over the handlebars of my electric scooter I did a tuck and roll. My head never hit the ground. Try to do a tuck and roll with a helmet on and your helmet will surely hit the ground. then you can claim the helmet saved your life. I have over 50 years of experience.
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Post by Chi Makwa on Aug 7, 2009 13:46:10 GMT -5
If I avoid crashing and don't split my head open, how does whether I wear a helmet or not affect others? When I flew over the handlebars of my electric scooter I did a tuck and roll. My head never hit the ground. Try to do a tuck and roll with a helmet on and your helmet will surely hit the ground. then you can claim the helmet saved your life. I have over 50 years of experience. I understand that -- believe me I do! I know experience makes a rider a lot safer and a lot more capable of avoiding the accident. I'm also a private pilot, and the same holds true with light aircraft -- the more experienced the pilot, the safer it is to fly with them. However, as I said above, I don't believe that any amount of experience can render a rider immune from the irresponsible and dangerous driving of other people, whether they're drunk, tired, ignorant, rage-full, on their cell phone, careless, reckless, incompetent, or even violently trying to knock a scooter down because of some twisted reasoning, like psychosis. Maybe someone will throw a beer bottle out of their window from the car in front of you and it might knock you down, or unconscious. People like this do exist, and you can do a phenomenal job of SEEing them, as I'm convinced you do, but there might still be that driver one day that you didn't see coming, maybe because they are flying through a blind intersection through which you have the right-of-way, or maybe, as vigilant as you are, you make a mistake because none of us are perfect. You've done a brilliant job of avoiding the dangerous drivers you've encountered, and I applaud that. People like you raise our profile and integrity as riders. But I think there's always the chance of meeting a driver who's worse than anyone you've ever encountered, and again, in my opinion, no amount of experience can render a person immune to the worst of the worst, whom in 50 years of riding you may not have encountered yet. It does my heart good to know people can go that long with no serious collisions. That tells me that with heightened vigilance and safe riding practices, I too might be that effective at avoiding accidents. But I'm not there yet, so I wear a helmet. However, even though you have achieved that level of safety, there's always elevated risk of fatality when riding without a helmet, however slight. Peace y'all. No animosity intended toward you, warstein, or anyone else who sees things differently than I do, or who chooses a different level of safety than I do, newbie that I am.
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Post by owenbrau on Aug 7, 2009 14:00:54 GMT -5
If I avoid crashing and don't split my head open, how does whether I wear a helmet or not affect others? When I flew over the handlebars of my electric scooter I did a tuck and roll. My head never hit the ground. Try to do a tuck and roll with a helmet on and your helmet will surely hit the ground. then you can claim the helmet saved your life. I have over 50 years of experience. So your experience guarantees that you'll never, ever need the helmet? It didn't keep you out of the accident. I haven't been in an accident in more than 24 years, but I still wear one. Just in case. Which is the point of all safety gear. Just in case. I don't support mandatory helmet use, except for minors and inexperienced riders (like we have here in PA).
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