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Post by ivanho on May 27, 2010 21:54:52 GMT -5
I recently learned that CFMOTO is hiding a serious issue with their Fashion scooter. They have had several of them catch fire and burn. Lev Mirman is doing his best to hide the problem and refuses to take the proper precautions and issue bulletins/recalls. What does he plan to do? Wait until someone is killed or seriously injured. One burned in New York and their has been several more - this has been going on for OVER a year. What kind of a person is Mirman??? A consumer that had one burn made a post on CFMOTO's forum - and cfmoto keeps deleting the post... what gives? This is pretty sad - what kind of a company would let something like this go?? Tisk-tisk on you Mr. Mirman...
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Post by tortoise on May 27, 2010 23:36:15 GMT -5
CFMOTO is hiding a serious issue with their Fashion scooter. Per your post in another forum . . . "The 250 Fashion Scooter was issued a service bulletin - cfmoto said it was to improve air flow - but the "fix" is a block off for the exhaust - to keep the scooter from catching on FIRE"Are you referring to this plate?
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Post by Bluefront on May 28, 2010 6:35:32 GMT -5
Interesting.....what exactly is causing the fire? Guessing.....I'd say the pulse injection system (also has other names) is failing somehow, allowing hot exhaust gas to enter the rubber injection line. Eventually the rubber line will fail and the exhaust will escape near the carb, catching something on fire. The little fix kit shown in the link, looks exactly like the plate I made when I removed the pulse injection from my Xingyue (did the same on my Roketa). These things look like accidents waiting to happen. Here's the little plate I made to block off the port on my ITA-150. I'd guess CFMoto is being quiet about all this because the installation of that plate is technically illegal (removal of emission equipment).
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Post by ivanho on May 28, 2010 20:20:04 GMT -5
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Post by "Big Guy" on May 28, 2010 22:02:49 GMT -5
Well I know there are always two sides to every story and I have been around a lot of CF Moto bikes. In fact, we are an authorized service center for them and have a fashion in the shop right now. I would think that if there were a problem we would be the first to know about it, yet we have yet to hear of one catching on fire and have no bulletins from CF.
I'm sure if CF knew there was a legitimate safety concern they would let their dealer network know about it, and I'm sure if this were an inherent problem, with all the Fashions running around here, we would have seen one by now.
There are many reasons for a scooter or any vehicle to catch fire, simply having two or three with a problem is not reason for a panic and could be coincidental. You have to look at it from the perspective of all the thousands sold that do not have this problem.
Perhaps the reason you were banned is the way in which you're presenting your argument? Slanderous accusations are cause for litigation, and CF probably brought that to the attention of the moderators at the Scooter BBS...
-Rich
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Post by ivanho on May 28, 2010 23:11:04 GMT -5
2 or 3??? Start talking to some of your fellow dealers. I got all of my info from my dealer. He is very upset over the situation - but, he has only had 1 Fashion that he sold catch fire. And that is only 1 out of 7 or 8 that he has sold - don't know if he was counting mine. He was not too happy when he learned that this could have all been avoided if he was explained WHAT the "Service Bulletin" was all about. Instead of being told that it was for better air flow! Not trying to bust anyone's bubble - I like my scooter, it is a nice ride and great for the price - just hope that ANYONE who owns a CFMOTO Fashion gets this fixed. Maybe NHTSA will step in - who knows??
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Post by kathineid on May 29, 2010 12:11:14 GMT -5
Ivanho, don't know who you are nor do I care to! I am the owner of In His Grace. DO NOT make it seem as though 1) you purchased a Fashion from me 2) that you know about a fire of a Fashion in detail that happened through my business 3) you know me personally and had gotten your info from me. For whatever reason you have grief with me or CF Moto, do not marr MY name nor CF Moto's because you don't have the guts to confront your "anger", for whatever reason! There were fires in the 2008 Fashions. 3 to be exact! CF sold over 400 Fashions. They took care of the problem. The recall's were taken care of expeditiously through the dealers and we were notified as soon as the 3rd one was investigated. Sorry that you have a point to prove by trying to marr the names of good and hardworking people and business's. No wonder you were banned from the last forum. You definately have an anger issue! Deal with it and get therapy!!! KEEP ME OUT OF YOUR NONSENSE!!!
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Post by kathineid on May 29, 2010 13:23:52 GMT -5
BTW, I never sold a Fashion to any customer that caught on fire! Thats a fact Jack! Get your info straight before speaking!
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Post by Bluefront on May 29, 2010 13:55:01 GMT -5
So....everybody is in denial about these incidents? If there is no problem to speak of here, will somebody explain that service bulletin.....what exactly does it refer to, and what does that "fix" plate do?
As I said in my previous post, it looks like a block-off plate for an emission device.......if there's no problem, explain the "fix".
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Post by ivanho on May 29, 2010 23:12:49 GMT -5
I NEVER said that I purchased my scoot from In His Grace.... That would be a little far for me to drive to buy a MIC scooter....lmao "ATTENTION: I DID NOT BUY MY SCOOT FROM IN HIS GRACE & DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS DEALER...."
However, I am really happy to hear that at least another dealer has spoke up and admitted to the fires.... Yet, CFMOTO and ScooterBBS totally deny ANY fires!!!!
Bluefront - the service bulletin has NOTHING to do with making your scoot run better or better air flow. Their is a secondary breather on the exhaust system that is totally not necessary and it is also a defective device. The block-off plate will allow you to REMOVE the breather so that you don't get the "reverse" back pressure - thus causing YOUR SCOOTER TO CATCH FIRE....
As far as this being an "emissions device" - don't know... don't even know if it is legal for dealers to remove this & don't really care- but I'd rather have mine removed and wish CFMOTO would not hide these problems under a bs tech bulletin... but - glad that at least "kathineid" spoke up and admitted to the fires... Not going to argue the number of fires - heard of many more than 3 - but 3 is enough for me to want consumers warned....
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Post by ivanho on May 29, 2010 23:20:18 GMT -5
Deal with it and get therapy!!! KEEP ME OUT OF YOUR NONSENSE!!! My only intent was to get Fashion scoot owners to get this so called tech fix done!!! As far as me "dealing with it"... I am - maybe the company should have "DEALT WITH THIS" in the proper manner to begin with.... Chinese made scooters are getting a bad enough name - CFmoto has some good products - but things like this put them in the same class as many of the other Chinese companies that have tried to make it in the US. Nice products - but maybe they need to step on some toes of those making business decision here in the US. So.... lets hope those on "top" at cfmoto get the therapy - they need it! ;D
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Post by tortoise on May 30, 2010 0:15:48 GMT -5
Their is a secondary breather on the exhaust system Image source.
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Post by Bluefront on May 30, 2010 2:27:52 GMT -5
From the brief description of that device......it is an air injection device, which uses exhaust pulses to inject fresh air into the exhaust, close to the engine. This is definitely an emission device, an add-on by the manufacturer to pass some federal regulation or other. It adds no performance whatever. (IMO).
Should the valve inside the device fail, exhaust will be allowed to flow backwards into the system through rubber tubes and a plastic canister-looking device. These parts are not capable of containing hot exhaust gas for long, and will also fail......resulting in the fires.
For a dealer to permanently disable the system could result in severe penalties.....perhaps that block-off plate is a temporary fix, with a redesigned pulse system to follow later.
Removal of such devices will cause a vehicle to fail a safety inspection in this state (if the inspector catches it)......so remove such things at your own risk. With that block-off plate installed, and the rest of the system still on the scooter, the fire risk is ended, and it would be quite unlikely any inspector would ever catch it......but still technically illegal.
This is my personal take on this matter.....
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Post by "Big Guy" on May 31, 2010 22:10:30 GMT -5
2 or 3??? Start talking to some of your fellow dealers. I got all of my info from my dealer. He is very upset over the situation - but, he has only had 1 Fashion that he sold catch fire. And that is only 1 out of 7 or 8 that he has sold - don't know if he was counting mine... That's what I said, 2 or 3... what's with all the question marks? My post was really aimed at the inflammatory tone in which you presented your argument. Facts are more important than personal emotions. If you truly feel that you have a need to "blow the whistle" on CF Moto, do so, but do so legally and post your factual process here for all to read. By doing so, we'll have access to both sides of the story and we'll be able to make up our own minds. As far as me communicating with other dealers? I do, thank you! You can hardly name a state where I don't have a friend in the scooter business. Sorry if I don't agree with you, but that's okay, we don't have to agree. I just feel you need to tone down the theatrics and mud-slinging. Motor vehicles are all prone to recalls and mechanical failures. All forms of transportation have their risks of failure due to faulty parts or engineering. I can name a hundred recalls between the Firestone/Explorer debacle and the exploding Ford F-150s back in the 70s - none of these defects were intended to cause injury or death. Best of luck to you, I hope you find a resolve to this... -Rich
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Post by Admin on Jun 1, 2010 8:52:36 GMT -5
I trust that Scootdawg only wants to post factual information, not rumors. Posts like the one that follows creates negative publicity for us, so I hope you will help me remove it. If there are any real issues, they will be announced through NHTSA etc. At this time, this post will be looked at as defamatory. Please take it down. scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=safety&thread=31155&page=1#312603Sincerely, Lev Mirman President CFMOTO Powersports, Inc. My Response: Lev, ScootDawg didn't post the comments. A user of the forum did. Negative publicity is just part of the heat that comes with being in the kitchen. I would be glad to post any response you have to the situation but I won't remove the thread. It's free speech in action. Feel free to join the forum and post your own comments. Regards, Lee scootdawg.proboards.comScootDawg is not a lapdawg to anybody in the industry. The big BBS caved but the Dawg will not! That being said, I tend to agree with Big Guy that this is a bunch of something over nothing. Sometimes things just catch on fire. Not a perfect world.
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Post by Blayne Mathieu on Jun 1, 2010 9:01:29 GMT -5
Lev, ScootDawg didn't post the comments. A user of the forum did. Negative publicity is just part of the heat that comes with being in the kitchen. I would be glad to post any response you have to the situation but I won't remove the thread. It's free speech in action. Feel free to join the forum and post your own comments. Dawg, excellently said, and I personally would love to hear what Lev has to say in this matter. Although this thread has heated up emotionally (for a comparatively good reason) it's nice to see those who are well-respected members of this community and the business chime in and speak about what they know, so all can get an unemotional dealer's perspective on this.
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Post by cfmoto on Jun 1, 2010 12:31:43 GMT -5
I really have very little to say in this matter. It's a little like calling someone a child molester and then asking them to defend themselves once the post has been spread through the internet. If Lee wants to allow this BS to be posted, then credibility of this board will suffer accordingly.
We stand behind our products and if we find any issues, we provide service bulletins to our dealers. In this case, some of the fresh air intake valves in our UNSOLD inventory have proven to be defective, so we are providing a block off plate so the dealer can replace them before the sale. This does not affect our EPA certification in any way because originally, when the bikes were tested for EPA certification, they did not have the valves and they passed with flying colors. The valves were added later, in order to meet the more stringent Euro III standard.
If anyone has a problem or concern with their CFMOTO bike, they are welcome to contact us or our dealers directly.
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Post by ivanho on Jun 1, 2010 13:30:25 GMT -5
If Lee wants to allow this BS to be posted, then credibility of this board will suffer accordingly.To delete this would suffer credibility to this board! It is the truth... [glow=red,2,300]We stand behind our products and if we find any issues, we provide service bulletins to our dealers. In this case, some of the fresh air intake valves in our UNSOLD inventory have proven to be defective, so we are providing a block off plate so the dealer can replace them before the sale.[/glow]When dealers are told that this is an "air improvement" it does not express any type of urgency. Thus mine was not fixed until MONTHS AFTER I purchased my Fashion - once my dealer found out the TRUTH to the Technical Bulletin and the block off kit! [glow=red,2,300]This does not affect our EPA certification in any way because originally, when the bikes were tested for EPA certification, they did not have the valves and they passed with flying colors. The valves were added later, in order to meet the more stringent Euro III standard.[/glow]This doesn't really matter to me - my state is not very strict - I just didn't want my scoot or anyone else's scoot to catch fire while riding 55mph down a highway! [glow=red,2,300]If anyone has a problem or concern with their CFMOTO bike, they are welcome to contact us or our dealers directly. [/glow]And.... does this mean if your dealer does not know the TRUTH to the Technical Bulletin and sees no urgency - then the general consumers are on their own??? Sad, very-very sad.....
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Post by Blayne Mathieu on Jun 1, 2010 14:35:48 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]We stand behind our products and if we find any issues, we provide service bulletins to our dealers. In this case, some of the fresh air intake valves in our UNSOLD inventory have proven to be defective, so we are providing a block off plate so the dealer can replace them before the sale.[/glow] Cool font! (not to change the subject or anything )
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Post by cfmoto on Jun 1, 2010 19:33:35 GMT -5
I think I'm the last manufacturer's rep left that was making posts on this board. Now I understand why. It is very empowering to sit behind one's screen and make manufacturers look bad. Gives one the sense of importance. I'm truly surprised that instead of checking facts when asked, Lee is allowing this National Inquirer type of information to be posted here.
Anyway, up until now Scootdawg was a link in "Our Friends" section of my site. That is no longer the case. I will also refrain from making any posts, so this forum can really turn into the rumor mill that everyone seems to want it to be. If anyone wants real information about CFMOTO, they can always check our site.
I wish everyone here good luck and happy scootering!
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Post by "Big Guy" on Jun 1, 2010 21:32:23 GMT -5
I think I'm the last manufacturer's rep left that was making posts on this board. Now I understand why. It is very empowering to sit behind one's screen and make manufacturers look bad. Gives one the sense of importance. I'm truly surprised that instead of checking facts when asked, Lee is allowing this National Inquirer type of information to be posted here. Now CF, you know that's just not fair at all! Of all of the thousands of positive posts regarding CF Moto products, I don't believe I have ever seen any negative threads before - what does that say about your company? Lee is not charged with responsibility of verifying information posted by members here, nor is he to be blamed for inflammatory posts by members of the forum, the member writing the post is. I'm not sure why you would want it taken down in the first place. All this will do is force the member to find another board and start all over again. If this is truly defamation, why not archive and print the page for litigation? Proboards would be happy to supply the user information to you with a subpoena. There are over 277,000 posts on this board, and at least a thousand or two positive reviews and recommendations for CF Moto products. Perhaps you might reconsider this decision, since 99.99% support and endorse your products, just like I do. I don't know of anyone who would not recommend a CF Moto! Please keep in mind that Ivanho is a member, and a member for all of 4 whole days who probably just signed up to post this information. In my opinion, Lee has in fact made the right decision to leave the thread intact - censorship has no place here unless it is a personal attack. Leaving this thread intact will bring in other more experienced people who will either prove or disprove the theory. One thing is for sure though, eventually the truth will come out regardless of who prevails. Our members are a lot more tech savvy than one might think and they have a way of finding out anything! I truly hope you will continue to be a productive member of this forum. You and I both know that because of all the good posts here, CF has sold hundreds of scooters. I know of nine people personally who bought V3s just because of Jacine's review alone! I personally have given no credit to Ivanho's theory since if this were in fact true, there would be lawsuits and an investigation by the NHTSA, yet there are no results found when you Google the keywords. I believe that this thread will actually disprove his theory eventually and CF can use it as a point of reference when he posts elsewhere. Again, and as I said earlier, if there is no truth to the theory, you have cause for a defamation and slander case. Proboards will release the posters IP address with a court order and his ISP will release his personal information as well. Cease and desist orders work really well when you need to shut someone up, censorship does not. I really hope you will continue to be a valued member here. I know a lot of people appreciate your input... -Rich
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Post by ivanho on Jun 1, 2010 21:52:34 GMT -5
Big Guy, I am or was NOT trying to "knock" or discredit cfmoto. I love my Fashion and ride it almost daily. they have some good products and really have something good going on. I am simply trying to plead for all cfmoto fashion owners to get this "technical bulletin" taken care of. I guess it IS fair to say that I AM knocking the way they have handled this situation - hiding problems is NEVER a good way to handle things. As far as this being true.... if you read above, according to " kathineid" - she is a cfmoto dealer & she even stated that she knew of only 3 instances of scoots catching fire. Hmmm... But, this is NOT my point!!! MY POINT IS: IF YOU OWN A CFMOTO FASHION SCOOT - GET THIS TECH BULLETIN TAKEN CARE OF AT YOUR LOCAL CFMOTO DEALERSHIP - ASAP!!!! Then... Enjoy your ride!!!!!
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Post by Bluefront on Jun 2, 2010 5:26:10 GMT -5
This is too much.....there's a possible serious problem with a certain scooter, and nobody wants to talk about it, and even threatens a lawsuit. I would like to read the full text of that TSB (technical service bulletin). Calling that block-off plate an "improvement of airflow" is ambiguous at best, and even misleading. Many of these small scooter dealers have little more technical expertise than your average scooter rider. Unless they are fully informed of the reason for the block-off plate (including the possibility of a fire), they are quite likely to ignore the bulletin.......since it is only a TSB and not a real recall. Any hint of a fire issue on most automobiles always results in a full recall.....regardless of the numbers involved. Why should scooters be any different? FWIW....Just what is a TSB? It's simply a bulletin sent out to dealers to inform them of a possible service issue that may/may not exist on certain models. It gives the dealers an idea of where to look first if a certain vehicle exhibits certain symptoms. The dealer is under no obligation to apply the "fix" to every one of these particular vehicles he has sold. The difference between a TSB and a "Recall"......the owners of all the affected vehicles are notified by mail (if they can be located). The dealer is obligated to repair every one of these vehicles that shows up at his dealership (if the owner requests it). Recalls are usually reserved for serious safety defects only. (like a potential fire)
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Post by Bluefront on Jun 2, 2010 9:02:48 GMT -5
^^^^^So "JRR" is now posting under the name of "lovelace"....what's going on here?
There's a difference between an owner modifying his scooter.....and a dealer doing the same thing. Of course what I've done is for test purposes only...and quite legal. A dealer can also do such mods for trouble-shooting...but not as a permanent fix.
I've never heard of a manufacturer adding emission devices after the vehicle has been EPA certified.....
Humm....several hours later. I see the "JRR" has been removed from the post by "lovelace". I smell something fishy.....
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Post by Admin on Jun 2, 2010 13:41:25 GMT -5
I am happy to see the CFMOTO took the time to reply, as I asked them to feel free to. Personally, I like CFMOTO products and think they are some of the best quality out of China. What I didn't appreciate was threat of legal action against scootdawg (me) because of something posted by a user or two of this public forum. I have no way of verifying every claim or opinion posted here. It's just not cool to try to intimidate into shutting down free speech. I hope Lev doesn't bring legal action against the dawg pound but I simply will not remove this thread. Lev, I know you are following this and in the end, I think it will be to your benefit for it to continue.
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Post by "Big Guy" on Jun 2, 2010 15:54:10 GMT -5
...Lev, I know you are following this and in the end, I think it will be to your benefit for it to continue. My point exactly... -Rich
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Jun 2, 2010 18:55:09 GMT -5
From what I make of this here from the other side of the world: ;D 1.) an CFMoto owner & a dealer stated that a number (>3?) caught fire. 2.) not all dealers know of the fault or consequences 3.) there is a fix for it, which is good for the manufacturer.
Questions: 1.) it seems like there is no acknowledgment & explanation of the problem like the car manufacturers do? 2.) No feedback to owner 3.) CFMoto is under the view that it was only in unsold inventory? Perhaps no feedback from dealers that some of the defective units did end up in the marketplace?
Seems to me the best for both parties (coming from someone who designed consumer electronics for 10 years): 1.) Open acknowledgment of problem - causes & consequences & instances (fire in this case) 2.) Open communication of model numbers & chassis numbers that needs fix. 3.) Honest info.
ivanho - IMHO I can understand that you are irate(that is what I get from your posts - lots of exclamation marks & capital letters = shout) with a scoot that had a potential problem. However stating the facts & only the facts (no attacks on a person) in a calm way gives a post a lot more credibility.
CFMoto - IMHO acknowledging the problem, failures, reasons and fixes would be in your best interest ( take this from someone with experience of consumer electronics that caused fires in kitchens - not good). IMHO customers have more trust in a company that acknowledges a problem and openly state their remedial action. My company during this time's stock prices actually went up to my surprise. Any manufacturer will get a customer that is impossible to please, but that customer will be shown up eventually. To stay here with us would be in your best interest.
happy scooting to you all thro this little pothole (in the big scope of things). ;D kiwiscoot
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Post by Aaron on Jun 2, 2010 23:54:22 GMT -5
I think I'm the last manufacturer's rep left that was making posts on this board. Now I understand why. It is very empowering to sit behind one's screen and make manufacturers look bad. Gives one the sense of importance. I'm truly surprised that instead of checking facts when asked, Lee is allowing this National Inquirer type of information to be posted here. Anyway, up until now Scootdawg was a link in "Our Friends" section of my site. That is no longer the case. I will also refrain from making any posts, so this forum can really turn into the rumor mill that everyone seems to want it to be. If anyone wants real information about CFMOTO, they can always check our site. I wish everyone here good luck and happy scootering! All of your competitors have at one time or another been the subject of a negative post on this board. Eventually the truth was reached and it was usually beneficial to the company named. On a forum as large as ScootDawg the BS gets weeded out pretty quickly. I can't speak to any issues with the Fashion Scooter. I trust Rich and his opinion of them. There likely is as you say no problem. What is disturbing is the difference between how you as a company reacted to this and your competition. You make vague threats and tell we are not your friend anymore. The others put their "Big Boy" pants on, made well tempered informative rebuttals, and rode it out till it reached its conclusion. Aaron
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Post by owenbrau on Jun 7, 2010 19:48:32 GMT -5
Sorry, but I'm agreeing with CFMoto here. It is easy to damage a reputation, far easier than it is to defend or repair one. They were placed in a position of having to prove they were not guilty, and that with the help of the moderators.
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Post by tortoise on Apr 3, 2012 16:33:59 GMT -5
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