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Post by jackthefuzz on Jun 23, 2008 10:58:18 GMT -5
Our LF150T-6 should be arriving this week. In following this thread, it leads to a few ?'s. - The LF150T-6 come with two 18 watt head lamps (low/high). Can the HID kits be fitted to this style of scooter without damage from heat, etc (like a 55w halogen) - Also, I'm assuming a 6 pole stator. (does anyone know for sure?) What is the output of a 6 pole stator? - I'm comfortable modifying a 6 pole per the KTM instructions but is the output sufficient w/o adding extra windings? Great forum and information. yes its suffencient without adding windings. you may want to upgrade the regulator to take full advantage of all the output. the 55watt halogen bulbs will eventually melt the reflector. the HIDs wont. ( I should say, they havent yet in over a year of riding) |
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Post by cheesehead on Jun 23, 2008 11:13:25 GMT -5
Jack - Thanks for your help!! If I understand completely then, the following setup would work for my scooter:
Modifed 6 pole stator (per ktm)
Trailtech regulator
- This would get me to a pure 12 VDC system
HID bulbs/system can then be safely used.
Thanks!
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Post by cheesehead on Jun 23, 2008 11:14:33 GMT -5
Is the 35W for the HID's per bulb or for two bulbs together in a two light system?
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Post by anthonyvs on Jun 23, 2008 11:24:25 GMT -5
jack i was referencing wattage from summit racings h4 bulbs
Brand: Hella
Product Line: Hella High Performance Xenon Light Bulbs
Part Type: Light Bulbs
Part Number: HLA-H83140282
Bulb Style: H4
Bulb Color: Blue
Street Legal: No
Low Beam Wattage: 80.0 watts
High Beam Wattage: 100 watts
Quantity: Sold as a pair.
i want to try and find the bulbs locally. but obviously these aren't going to work.
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jun 23, 2008 11:29:22 GMT -5
jack i was referencing wattage from summit racings h4 bulbs Brand: Hella Product Line: Hella High Performance Xenon Light Bulbs Part Type: Light Bulbs Part Number: HLA-H83140282 Bulb Style: H4 Bulb Color: Blue Street Legal: No Low Beam Wattage: 80.0 watts High Beam Wattage: 100 watts Quantity: Sold as a pair. i want to try and find the bulbs locally. but obviously these aren't going to work. oh yeah but those are serious off road bulbs. you wouldnt want to run those on the street. the standard HID bulb for street use is 35 watts and they are INTENSE. I would hate to look at one of those offroad bulbs. |
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jun 23, 2008 11:34:44 GMT -5
Jack - Thanks for your help!! If I understand completely then, the following setup would work for my scooter: Modifed 6 pole stator (per ktm) Trailtech regulator - This would get me to a pure 12 VDC system HID bulbs/system can then be safely used. Thanks! yes that will get you to a full DC setup. you will also have to change where the current lights get their power. you will have to modify the bikes wiring a little bit. its not hard to do. you just need to switch the lighting source from the yellow wire to a switched DC circuit . there are a couple of different ways to make that happen. when you are ready to do it , several people here can guide you |
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Post by dtwscooter on Jun 23, 2008 14:28:11 GMT -5
It may be moot point now but I'm somewhat inclined to wanting to understand how things worked. The 3 yellow wire from the 11 pole stator got me questioning what's going on. So here is a diagram that made me understand what it was. If you already know, just disregard this posting, I did it mostly for my gratification. sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03267.png |
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Post by gy6rocket on Jun 23, 2008 21:35:36 GMT -5
Here is a great example of what is going on with the output, and the advantages of an 11 pole stator. It produces 3 phase current, which in the end produces a cleaner DC output. Remember the rectifier is taking the wave from the negative side and flipping it onto the positive side, then the regulator smooths it out (filters). As you can see single wave does not have a true stable DC output. It is close but it does fluctuate.  The 6 and 8 pole are single wave type, or have perhaps a 2 phase current since they have 2 wires and a ground. Also, just to clarify, even a low end scoot with a 6 pole stator still has a DC circuit. Every scoot does, it's the only way to charge the battery. The red line coming off a 4 pin regulator is your DC output. The black wire coming out from your ignition is DC output, which basically is just a switched DC circuit (fed from that same red wire). So converting a system to DC is easy (on paper). Just hook all circuits to the black wire on your ignition and bam, every circuit is now DC. This works as long as your wiring can handle the draw placed upon it. If not it gets hot. Real Hot, as this is the only way the wire can dissipate the energy going through it. This is where the relays come in for the HID lamps. Ignition controls relays, which in turn control your high draw circuits. |
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Post by isawhim on Jun 24, 2008 0:50:37 GMT -5
Love that diagram...
Why don't you guys just use the white (Xenon-Halogen Lights?). No mods needed, just plug it in? They are brighter than the normal filament bulb lights we all have, and better than the normal yellow halogen bulbs, that some of us have. (Cheaper too!)
(Scooters can get away with the "Off-road" lights, if only one is used for high, and one for low. Not like a cop is going to strip-down your bike, and force you to rip out a light-bulb! Especially now, that HID is DOT legal.)
Just make sure your lights are not up in peoples faces. That is where you get into trouble.
Ok, check this out... Odd thing on my voltmeter. (It is a diode-set AC tester. There is a diode to purposely polarize AC, to check for ground-leaking.)
When I put my tester probe in the headlight socket...
One way, I get 11v - 14v (14v with high RPM)
Other way, swapping + and -, I get 9v - 12v (12v with high RPM)
The average voltage, which any filament light sees, is this...
(11 + 9 = 20 / 2 = 10v) to (14 + 12 = 26 / 2 = 13v)
EG
(10v to 13v)
Seems the rectifier is drawing more power from the + side of the wave???
For a minute, I thought the 3v drop on the + side, leaving it as 9v (Through a diode.) was for the CDI to operate, or was being used as the charge for the battery, dropping the voltage on that side. But, at this point I am baffled. (I wanted to split the wave into two halves, but that would give me 9v for my lights, or 11v for the lights, if I use the 9v for another purpose.)
The battery shows a charge of 12.8v-13.8v @ 1.7A - 2.2A, while it is running, which is fine. (That would charge the battery in 2.5 hours, if I left the bike running that long, from dead. It is a 7Ahr battery.)
Any thoughts?
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Post by isawhim on Jun 24, 2008 1:01:21 GMT -5
One additional question. If I were to upgrade to the 8 or 11 pole stator, will the stock flywheel still work? I've read conflicting info. Thanks Poles matter, because there are permanent magnets that MUST hit each pole at the same time, to generate power. Each magnet surface is positioned to the poles. More poles translates into less pole-space. That translates into poor alignment and poor generation. (Dirty waves, dirty power, cancellation, voids, etc...) Yes, it matters. Will it break the bike? Possibly... but it might not. It will surely not be ideal, or "Better" in any way, or they would all be made that way. FYI: More poles = cleaner power, better heat distribution, more control, more efficient, and longer life. Nothing significant, but enough to matter. (With all other things being equal.) |
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Post by fuelman on Jul 14, 2008 17:31:17 GMT -5
I am awaiting the arrival of a new Vento phantom and I want to do this DC convertion. I plan on using the Trail Tech 7003-RR150 to replace the regulator. I'm sure the Ventos stator will be a 6-pole so I will follow the instructions on Trail Techs web site to modify the stator.
The only part of this I'm not sure of is changing the wiring on the bike.
Can you spell it out for me a little better? Maybe a drawing of the entire proses? If not can I count on the help of ones that have done this? AKA: jackthefuzz, gy6rocket, cheezhead, and others.
Thank you
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Post by dtwscooter on Jul 18, 2008 13:16:19 GMT -5
interesting note. I have 3 stators. 2 6 pole stators and 1 8 pole stator. when I looked at the 8 pole stator I found that it was already set up with a floating ground making it ideal to be used in a DC only system. the 6 pole stators do not have a floating ground and would have to be converted to be used in a full DC system as described in this article trailtech.net/media/electrical/dc_conversions/ktm_dc_conversion.pdfI'm very interested in the AC to DC conversion as I recently installed HID light in my scooter. Looking carefully over the electrical circuit in my owners manual I see that I can easily convert the whole circuit to DC by doing your method except for two areas: 1) the 'electronic enriching valve' is feed from another coil(center tap maybe?) in the stator thus is AC operated 2) the CDI is triggerd by a coill that is chassis ground referenced I think I can leave the CDI trigger as is and separated from the rest of the circuit. But the AC feed to the enricher, I'm not sure how to handle. It's connected to the ground through a resistor. |
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Post by swakk on Jul 18, 2008 16:40:36 GMT -5
for the wattage of the various stator , as said by the maker 11 coils , around 150w output 8 coils ... in the middle, said that the added 2 coils are dedicaded to charging the battery 6 coils around 75 w output on my regulator white one is for starter, around 6 volt dc (may be different, sometimes ac powered or powered not straight from the regulator) red for battery green for ground black to power things (lights, meters....) all the yellow are phases from stator (3) www.scooterchinois.fr/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=939&forum=54 the picts and some more informations |
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Post by dtwscooter on Jul 27, 2008 19:26:58 GMT -5
A bit of update on my HID install and AC to DC conversion. Taking battery volt reading in the morning and at night results in 0.7V to 1.0V loss. This means my charging system is not quite upto it. So took off the flywheel to see what's inside:  It looks as I have an 8 pole stator. There are 3 wires from it and I measured the follwing: Pink - 14.5 to 16.5 VAC Yellow - 11.5 to 12.5 VAC Green - ground I traced the wire to the rectifier/regulator at the front of scooter. You can see as silver box with heatsink here(my HID module is to the right of it):  It has 4 pin jack with above 3 wire as input and one output: Red - 13.5 VDC no HID - 12.7 VDC w/ HID and slowing dropping So 1) do I assume it's floating ground and use Trailtech regulator? 2) do I convert to 11pole system like gy6rocket and PFS 3 phase regulator? |
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 27, 2008 22:43:26 GMT -5
that stator has a center tap attached to the yellow wire. that means the stator is NOT a floating ground which is needed for maximum DC charging. you will have to modify the stator as per the KTM instructions posted on the first page of this thread. then u will be good to go!!!!
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Post by dtwscooter on Jul 28, 2008 7:23:11 GMT -5
Thanks, Jack. I read the KTM instruction again. It looks like all I have to do is:
* detach yellow wire from center tap wires
* ensure the center taps are soldered well
* detach green wire
* attach yellow wire to where green wire was attached
Does this look right?
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 28, 2008 8:05:15 GMT -5
yes except your last one. you can leave the green wire attached where it is. you need to desolder the magnet wire that is connected to the green wire, take that magnet wire and extend it around the pole to meet up with the yellow wire and then connect the 2.
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Post by dtwscooter on Jul 28, 2008 8:10:56 GMT -5
Ah, I see now. Got it!
The green is always chassis ground. So it stays in place. The yellow is now the other end of the floating AC output, pink being the other end.
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 28, 2008 8:55:53 GMT -5
yup that does it!. I am not certain how well the oem regulator will deal with the new found power. I would say try it but be prepared to replace it with that trailtech regulator.
TIP: if thats the first time you have had the flywheel off, when you put it back on make sure the crank is clean and remember to take the time to check the flywheel nut again after the first time you run it.
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 28, 2008 9:19:07 GMT -5
you will have to remember to move all your AC loads to switched DC power. Headlights and tail lights and instrument lights. Brake lights and turn signals are already DC on most scoots.
I hooked my tail lights and instrument lights to the "ignition on" 12v+ ( black wire on my scoot)
my headlights run off a separate switch, in my case I re wired my kill switch to use as a headlight switch. you definitely don't want the headlights on with the key switch as starting it will be an issue with that much load on the system. BTW using the kill switch for this function is not unusual as in markets out side of the US thats what that switch is, a headlight switch.
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Post by gy6rocket on Jul 28, 2008 9:29:10 GMT -5
Looks good DTW! Let us know how the conversion goes.
I wired my HID relay to the high beam circuit on my light switch. So having it on low beam shuts off the headlamp. Really don't need "high beams" when running an HID anyway. Just a thought if you want to keep the engine cut off on the handlebars.
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Post by dtwscooter on Jul 28, 2008 12:12:19 GMT -5
Thanks for all your input. I think I have clear idea of what I need to do.
I will rewire my 8 pole stator per Jack's comments. Connect it back to original regulator/rectifier. Isolate the headlamp circuit from the rest DC circuits. Then give it a go!
If it doesn't pan out(battery loosing charge, original regulator giving up ghost..,) then convert to 11 pole, 3 phase system like GY6rocket did.
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 28, 2008 12:17:57 GMT -5
it should work out good for you. I know with an 8 pole stator and the trailtech regulator I have had zero problems running 2 HIDs at the same time ( although I only use this to blind the old folks that drive around here) LOL. mostly I run with only one HID on but it still charges the battery at maximum rate even at idle
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Post by dtwscooter on Jul 28, 2008 22:42:51 GMT -5
Quick update. Worked on the conversion of the 8 pole stator and the rest of scooter to DC circuit. Did the rewire on the stator. Then cut the yellow wire out of stator then connect directly to the regulator input with the pink wire. Connect the rest of circuit to the black wire coming out of ignition key circuit. Fired it up.
It started and ran. But measuring the voltage at the regulator was as follows:
pink - yellow = 3.7VAC
pink - green = 0.7VAC
yellow - green = 11.7VAC
red - green = 12.4VDC
I think the scooter was running off of the battery. I was expecting 14 - 17VAC between the pink and yellow but that wasn't so. What do you think went wrong?
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 29, 2008 21:20:08 GMT -5
something sure isnt right with those figures. you sure the center tap isnt grounding on anything?
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Post by preachp on Jul 30, 2008 8:27:54 GMT -5
Hi All,
Just a note for thought. If when you turn the ignition switch to on without starting the engine and your lights come on they are wired to the DC voltage source which is the battery. Since the engine is not running at this point there is no AC source for the lights to be powered by.
With my bike when I turn the switch to the ON position the lights are on motor running or not.
ride safe, ride long.
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 30, 2008 8:55:47 GMT -5
preachp, thats a good point. there are many different electrical configurations for these scoots even within the same make and model
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Post by dtwscooter on Jul 30, 2008 10:10:27 GMT -5
preachp,
After my rewire from AC to DC it did just that - all lights came on with key-on, engine-off.
jack,
I will be disassembling tonight/tomorrow and look for any flaws in the re-wiring. But I don't know how to trouble shoot other than the step by step instruction by the KTM method and your input. I'm somewhat uncomfortable due to the fact that I don't fully understand the theory of rewiring the stator. I wish I had schematic of my 8 pole stator so I can digest what the rewiring did or was trying to do.
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 30, 2008 10:22:41 GMT -5
sounds like something got grounded that shouldnt be grounded. you must havee changed the power source for your lights from the yellow wire to the circuit thats powered by the key switch correct?
as far as the conversion to DC. all you are doing is floating the ground and removing the center tap from the yellow wire and connecting the end that was connected to ground , to the yellow wire. this gives the yellow wire a full wave. interesting to note that you are getting good voltage from the yellow wire but not from the white(pink) wire. disconnect the connector plug for the stator where it connects to the scooter harness ( the plug closest to the stator) . check for grounds. do a continuity check between the green wire and the yellow wire and then the pink wire. then repeat with the plug connected and make sure there are no grounds present on the yellow and white (pink) wires. If there is no ground present in either test then its more than likely a regulator that blew or doesnt like working with floated ground setup. if there is no ground in first test and ground present in second test then there is a ground somewhere in the scoot wiring harness. if there is a ground in the first test then there is an issue with the stator. simple 10 minute test to determine where the issue lies
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Post by jackthefuzz on Jul 30, 2008 10:30:16 GMT -5
Running test. If the above tests show no ground in either the yellow or white(pink) wire then you can isolate the issue further by doing a running test. check AC voltage with the engine running and the stator plug disconnected. both the yelow and white wire should show substantial AC voltage. If both do when the plug is disconnected and dont when it is connected then its going to be your regulator. . remember the AC voltage will drop when the regulator is connected but should not be below 12 ( as an absolute minimum)when running.
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