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Post by Admin on Sept 5, 2006 21:16:26 GMT -5
I've been riding enough scooters for enough miles to start to figure out variator roller wear. I'm going to suggest that rollers are good for 2K to 3K miles, after which they will start to develop flat spots that will impede performance. I don't have data yet on the Dr. Pulley weights, which promise longer life. I would be interested to hear from others with experience on this.
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Post by pdaddy on Sept 6, 2006 13:59:12 GMT -5
I've been riding enough scooters for enough miles to start to figure out variator roller wear. I'm going to suggest that rollers are good for 2K to 3K miles, after which they will start to develop flat spots that will impede performance. I don't have data yet on the Dr. Pulley weights, which promise longer life. I would be interested to hear from others with experience on this. I guess this wear is diffrent on diffrent rollers.. I know my stock rollers were alredy flat in some place after just 200 Km, there are just to many crapp rollers out there. I think that rollers should be replaced like the oils when you first get youre scoot. Thats just my thought's. But i can say that my Dr Pulley weights are not showing any dammage or wear at all after 350 km, just abit misscolored. M
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Post by somecallmetim on Sept 7, 2006 20:49:09 GMT -5
The "rollers" develop flat spots because they don't roll. They slide like the Dr. Pulley weights, but the good doctor realized that and designed his weights with sliding in mind. The weights are sandwiched between two surfaces; to roll on one they would have to "roll" (slip) backwards on the other. What's needed is a wedge, like the Dr. Pulley weights, not a "roller". The guy who developed the variator design in his basement probably used some off-the-shelf rollers of some sort as weights out of convenience, and everyone after that just played "follow the leader". I replaced my stock weights, which looked good, with MRPs at 500 miles; then replaced them again with lighter ones after another 400 miles, and the MRPs had flat spots already. So much for "quality" aftermarket parts versus cheap Chinese stock parts.
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Post by Admin on Sept 7, 2006 21:27:34 GMT -5
Yep, while I didn't see quite the performance boost I expected with Dr Pulley, I do think they are a better design for longer life.
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Post by Jacine on Sept 7, 2006 21:28:35 GMT -5
Wonder if ball bearings would work if the right size and weight?
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Post by pdaddy on Sept 8, 2006 1:10:44 GMT -5
Wonder if ball bearings would work if the right size and weight? Worth a try Jacine ;D But the wear on the variator it self would be alot more though. M
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Post by Admin on Sept 8, 2006 8:32:22 GMT -5
I love this cast of geniuses. ;D
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Post by 90GTVert on Sept 8, 2006 9:00:07 GMT -5
LOL....... Every roller I've seen comes from China (even the Dr Pulley). But, there are definitely varying quality of weights out there. Unfortunately, it's virtually impossible to tell which are better without just trying them. Even then, it isn't foolproof because the distributors change manufacturers (probably based on who's cheaper) all the time. The Dr Pulley weights have been the most consistent so far from what I have seen. Now, when they come out with a variator for the 250, I'll be a happy camper. The 250 OEM round weights have flat spots right from the box. I did find that the Dr Pulley sliding weights were a bigger improvement on the 250 with the OEM variator than they are on the 150. Even the 150 using the sliding weights seems to have a smooter transition, but the performance/speed gain is mostly hype. The larger 150 variator will provide a small speed gain, but probably only because it's 15% bigger in diameter. Stan The "rollers" develop flat spots because they don't roll. They slide like the Dr. Pulley weights, but the good doctor realized that and designed his weights with sliding in mind. The weights are sandwiched between two surfaces; to roll on one they would have to "roll" (slip) backwards on the other. What's needed is a wedge, like the Dr. Pulley weights, not a "roller". The guy who developed the variator design in his basement probably used some off-the-shelf rollers of some sort as weights out of convenience, and everyone after that just played "follow the leader". I replaced my stock weights, which looked good, with MRPs at 500 miles; then replaced them again with lighter ones after another 400 miles, and the MRPs had flat spots already. So much for "quality" aftermarket parts versus cheap Chinese stock parts.
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Post by scooterollie on Sept 8, 2006 15:18:35 GMT -5
Yeah pdaddy & Jacine, I would rather replace weights than install a new variator every few thousand miles.
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Post by pdaddy on Sept 9, 2006 12:13:27 GMT -5
Lol why not just make it a manual variator.. A mechanism that push the the vari bye pulling a lever .. hehe M
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Post by somecallmetim on Sept 9, 2006 13:21:10 GMT -5
Not a bad idea actually. It could even be controlled by a foot pedal since your feet aren't doing anything else most of the time, or by a left-hand twistgrip. Controlling the tension of the rear spring might work better, though. I'm going out to the garage with my hammer and hacksaw right now.
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Post by pdaddy on Sept 9, 2006 15:54:45 GMT -5
Not a bad idea actually. It could even be controlled by a foot pedal since your feet aren't doing anything else most of the time, or by a left-hand twistgrip. Controlling the tension of the rear spring might work better, though. I'm going out to the garage with my hammer and hacksaw right now. ;D M
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Post by scooterollie on Sept 9, 2006 17:38:28 GMT -5
My Dad engineered something like that about 50 years ago. Used a foot peddle to move 1/2 of the pulley in and out. Wasn't a CVT but acted as a clutch on a homemade buggy he made for me. Before go-carts. Used a large, old B&S engine with the "clutch" on the output shaft. A belt transferred power to a 3-speed tranny from a 1939 Plymouth. Worked great and was loads of fun!
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Post by sussexscooterhead on Sept 10, 2006 15:12:05 GMT -5
I noticed the weights in my RX200 were made of a ceramic-like material - very hard. They're showing no real signs of wear after 1000 miles.
I can't tell from the pictures but is the outer surface of aftermarket rollers made with a material similar to nylon?
Perhaps someone experienced with the Dr Pulley can answer my next question, is their variator designed to make use of it's extra diameter? At some point the 2 halves will touch preventing it from closing further and I'm wondering if it's able to close enough to push the belt out to the maximum circumference. I guess the other thing impacting this would be the ramp profiles.
Does anyone know this for certain?
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Post by pdaddy on Sept 10, 2006 15:23:06 GMT -5
I noticed the weights in my RX200 were made of a ceramic-like material - very hard. They're showing no real signs of wear after 1000 miles. I can't tell from the pictures but is the outer surface of aftermarket rollers made with a material similar to nylon? Perhaps someone experienced with the Dr Pulley can answer my next question, is their variator designed to make use of it's extra diameter? At some point the 2 halves will touch preventing it from closing further and I'm wondering if it's able to close enough to push the belt out to the maximum circumference. I guess the other thing impacting this would be the ramp profiles. Does anyone know this for certain? The extra size on the Dr Pulley are just the face agains the pushing plate if you so say. But if you were to make vari another way they couldent be much of a use i think, you cant push the vare plate more than a surten amount. It will hit the other variator and some alredy does that. The flat spots are just there to aid against the wear that normal rollers get, and maybe push the plate that extra 100 of a inch M
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Post by somecallmetim on Sept 11, 2006 18:56:07 GMT -5
The flat spots that "roller" weights get are their way of trying to tell you that they don't want to be round ;D. I was even thinking of buying weights 2 mm bigger in diameter and filing flatspots on them before I install them; they might work better.
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Post by Admin on Sept 12, 2006 7:44:50 GMT -5
Just buy the Dr Pulley weights. They already have flat spots.
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Post by pdaddy on Sept 12, 2006 10:46:50 GMT -5
Just buy the Dr Pulley weights. They already have flat spots. Right on M
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Post by somecallmetim on Sept 14, 2006 18:59:31 GMT -5
But if I file down my own, I can patent them and sell them as "Dr. Tim's Pre-Flat-Spotted Weights", promise incredible performance gains, better cornering, and a louder horn, and become fabulously rich and famous and give my kids bizarre names.
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Post by liverchip on Sept 14, 2006 20:04:14 GMT -5
Sign me up for a set of Tim's! ;D
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Post by pdaddy on Sept 15, 2006 14:05:13 GMT -5
Haha, well just filing down regular rollers would decrease the roller dia to much me thing..
But i dont know how oversized the bigger rollers is !!!
M
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Post by daddyeby on Sept 22, 2006 9:01:37 GMT -5
I am going to try something on my 50cc but it would be easyer on a 125 or larger because they use larger rollers. I am going to used two differnt dia of rollers three the stock dia size and three smaller. The thought is the total weight is what pushes the variator out. when the smaller weights hit the end of travel then they will no longer be part of the total weight and the larger rollers will have all the load. this should make two shift pionts or at least extend the shift. The only thing that may cause it not to work is the fact that as the weights move out they are traveling in a bigger arch and will have more force. I am going to try this this weeked if it dont rain me out using hard wood dowel rod for the smaller and lighter weights it should hold up long enough to see if it works then I will work on getting good small weights.
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Post by jackthefuzz on Sept 22, 2006 12:28:14 GMT -5
I am going to try something on my 50cc but it would be easyer on a 125 or larger because they use larger rollers. I am going to used two differnt dia of rollers three the stock dia size and three smaller. The thought is the total weight is what pushes the variator out. when the smaller weights hit the end of travel then they will no longer be part of the total weight and the larger rollers will have all the load. this should make two shift pionts or at least extend the shift. The only thing that may cause it not to work is the fact that as the weights move out they are traveling in a bigger arch and will have more force. I am going to try this this weeked if it dont rain me out using hard wood dowel rod for the smaller and lighter weights it should hold up long enough to see if it works then I will work on getting good small weights. hey brother, better make sure the smaller weights dont fly out, or jam the variator full open. Probably a bad idea to use 2 different diameter weights. I would also think the smaller weights will rattle like crazy in there
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Post by swakk on Sept 22, 2006 15:14:46 GMT -5
i tried roller ball bearing (bearing for heavy dutty) .. It's too heavy ! (i was sure of this) and definitively too hard for the variator . Some italian roller are in teflon (hard to find but really good, i had some , years ago) or some brass alliage (very good) they are really better than chineses one!
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Post by cathouse on Sept 22, 2006 21:24:48 GMT -5
please explain to a dummy like me just what and where are the rollers you folks are talking about ? does my 2005 Roketa Fifi 150cc have them...
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Post by daddyeby on Sept 22, 2006 21:35:47 GMT -5
I am not planninng on using tiny rollers just ones about 12mm instead of 16mm but we'll see what happens dont sound like I will get to ride tomorrow rain maybe sunday. If it stick the variator wide open no big deal your stuck in high gear till you remove them. I am not worried about a rattle as long as I know where and what is causing it. beside its a test if it dont work it dont work. I wont be out anything but my time.
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Post by Aaron on Sept 22, 2006 21:43:33 GMT -5
Cathouse they are in the Clutches that the drive belt rides on specifically the front one. They are behind the clutch in little grooves and are what closes the front pulley as rpm increases. Yes your Roketa has them and yes you can try different weights to see what you like. Most scoots in that class have 13 gram rollers. Dropping to 12,11,or 10 gram rollers can help improve acceleration and hill performance. Usually doesn't do any thing to top speed.
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Post by somecallmetim on Sept 23, 2006 10:41:38 GMT -5
The idea of a "two stage" variator is interesting, but I'm not sure how well it would really work. I'm thinking that when the smaller dia. weights reach the end of their travel, if the larger dia. ones then move farther outward, the smaller ones will become loose, and then won't be exerting any force, which will then make the variator close up again until they are in contact again, etc. I don't think this would really happen; you would just end up with some some average between the two, much like with different weights of the same dia. but not as predictable. Thinking about this brings high school calculus to mind which was never my strong point. The idea might have some merit if the variator ramps were designed for different sized weights, though?
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Post by swakk on Sept 23, 2006 18:18:25 GMT -5
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Post by daddyeby on Sept 23, 2006 18:20:09 GMT -5
well the Ideal is when the light ones reach the end of their travel the centrivical force that pushed them there will hold them there even after the heavyer and larger weights open the variator wider if you get carried away and used a real small roller then it could cause problems. But I think I will find out tomorrow looks like the rain is gone.
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