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Post by mattwg on Dec 23, 2012 0:12:51 GMT -5
I took my head apart and replaced the valves and springs about 9 months ago. So I had the whole motor out an on a table in the garage and had to put it back on the bike and connect everything up. I go to start it up and not a damn thing. Total silence. Some guys on here helped me get my starter relay hooked up correctly. I put a fresh tank of gas, a newly charged battery, topped off the oil, new ngk plug, performance coil.
I can turn the starter by jumping the relay post with a screwdriver but no action anywhere else. No spark from the plug and I don't smell an fuel. Any help would be fantastic
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Post by jazzman on Dec 23, 2012 0:25:10 GMT -5
Check you fuse on the small red wire coming of the battery that feeds the Ignition if that is dead everything is dead. Also make sure you have a ground from the frame to the motor and the battery to the frame ground. If it is a fuse tube they may look good but could be bad. YOu can test if it is good by checking voltage on each side so see if juice is getting to the fuse from the battery and juice is coming out on the other side. So test each side seperately.
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Post by mattwg on Dec 23, 2012 0:52:33 GMT -5
I've got power on both sides of that tube fuse. And I tested my ground to the frame and the motor. The grounds get a light for me. I am deeply puzzled.
If I don't get this thing going by christams when I get together with the inlaws my wise ass brother in law is going to smirk and say "i told you you needed my help". cant let that happen...
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Post by tvnacman on Dec 23, 2012 2:22:38 GMT -5
what is the voltage when measured at the battery ?
John
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Post by 50cc on Dec 23, 2012 5:38:48 GMT -5
i bet on a dead battery and timing chain installed incorrectly
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Post by tvnacman on Dec 23, 2012 6:02:37 GMT -5
you can put a timing chain in wrong ? but the timing chain doesn't work on the battery or does it .
John
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Post by 50cc on Dec 23, 2012 6:21:29 GMT -5
When you're out of timing continuous attempts to crank the engine will drain your battery.
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Post by tvnacman on Dec 23, 2012 7:04:28 GMT -5
When you're out of timing continuous attempts to crank the engine will drain your battery. oh ok , but he had no power to begin with . maybe the timing chain in backwards swallowed all the batteries energy ? |
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Post by dyoung1167 on Dec 23, 2012 9:37:49 GMT -5
my guess is a couple of unrelated problems. timing needs to be verified. use a stick in the plug hole (you'll be able to feel it as the piston moves) to verify actual tdc and the cam sprocket holes line up correctly.
the battery OBVIOUSLY isn't the problem or it wouldn't turn over when jumping the solenoid.
unplug the harness wires from the sol. and check grnd wire continuity to frame, them for 12v on the other wire when pushing the start button. of course this needs to be done in run mode, just like it works and your trying to start it.
also pull the two wire plug from the cdi and with the scoot in run mode make sure there is no grnd continuity on the black/w wire.
if all that is good we'll go from there.
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Post by mattwg on Dec 23, 2012 18:50:41 GMT -5
batteries got a fresh charge. Timing was set precisely at TDC. Got fresh tank of gas. oil topped off new coil. There is not electric at the spark plug. nothing from the fuel pump. If the starter relay is faulty would that shut all this stuff down?
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Post by carasdad on Dec 23, 2012 19:03:58 GMT -5
batteries got a fresh charge. Timing was set precisely at TDC. Got fresh tank of gas. oil topped off new coil. There is not electric at the spark plug. nothing from the fuel pump. If the starter relay is faulty would that shut all this stuff down? No..fuel pump is vacuum operated from the engine...and if relay works when jumped battery is good..also relay would not shut down your system..it would just fail to start via 'start' button. So lets beat your brother in law to the problem..  here is a 'go by' I had posted in the Tech section here. Follow it step by step best as you can according to your model. i.e your stator is most likely different than our Gy6 based engines...but the rest should be helpful. To check for fuel flow..pull off fuel line to carb..vac line from engine or intake...suck on vac line to see if gas flows...that will rule out your fuel pump..as for spark..this link should help..but as I said your stator may be different..but the rest should be helpful.. scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=electricissues&action=display&thread=53915 |
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Post by mattwg on Dec 24, 2012 0:11:15 GMT -5
Thanks for providing the steps for the stator. I have a gy6 engine. it is the BMS v9evo. You mentioned the starter relay not allowing response from the ignition button... Mine doesn't get anything from the start button or even the button on the remote start. So if I can get the starter to turn by connecting the relay posts with a screw driver, doesn't that mean the relay does not work?
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Post by jazzman on Dec 24, 2012 0:41:36 GMT -5
Let me ask this simply question when you turn the key to on does any instrument lights, or gauge gas work?
The Solenoid gets is juice when the brake is squeezed and also sends juice to the brake lights, the start button all it does is complete the circuit by grounding the Solenoid and it then sends juice to the starter.
So if you have NO POWER when you turn the key on , I would suspect the Fuse or you did not connect the plug from the solenoid to the harness. I have heard so many times I TESTED the FUSE it is good but how did you test it?
One thing you can do is test the wires by the IGNITION SWITCH and see if you have 12V if not your wire from the battery is either broke or the fuse is bad. Just put in a new fuse they are really cheap.
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Post by carasdad on Dec 24, 2012 0:48:25 GMT -5
Very possibly. Even if it's new. Some orders from my wholesaler I get in lots of 10-12..typically batteries...CDI's..Relays and bulbs. Seems to always be one from the lot of each item that is dead from the 'git go'.. One thing...if your remote does not work and your 'Start' button does not work. Problem may be in your ignition wiring itself.. i.e. a short... or bad ground to engine or frame...or both engine and frame. Remote and 'Start' button work off the same wiring sort of...one energizes the system from a relay in the remote..other of course from contact made inside the start button. But both are tied in together in the wiring to your relay. 2 things to rule out first..1. The remote..batteries in the remote key fobs fail often...cause who knows how long they sat in a non climate controlled Chinese warehouse.So forget the remote for now and focus on the start button. 2. Use your multimeter to check continuity in the start button..clip or touch your probes there..should show a blank screen(at least on my digital ones) then press the start button and it should show '0' something to that affect.Regardless if it changes from nothing to a value when your press the switch...you know that is ok. From there... with ignition on!!....then check continuity from switch to relay with start button pressed and check for voltage as well. Check both wires that go into the relay. If nothing..the problem is of course in the wiring between the two.. If you get continuity and voltage to wires going into relay...the relay is bad. Make sure your are squeezing a brake lever while doing this. Also when you did the tests in the link..did you get any spark while cranking it by jumping the relay?
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Post by jazzman on Dec 24, 2012 1:13:22 GMT -5
Lets get to basics here, lets find out if he is getting power to the IGNITION first and if it does what lights work or don't work. Remote the Alarm those can be disconnected some have a fuse on them. Some if you disconnect you have to put a jumper wire on it otherwise your scoot will not start because the juice flows through it and out.
There are 3 major system legs on a scoot, Electrical, Fuel and Motor(including the CVT and tranny).
How to diagnose is first find the BAD leg by doing some simple tests. Once the bad leg is identified then that legs parts can be tested to find the problem child. That is how I work it all depends on what the scoot is doing or not doing or how the person explains the problem which I then ask specific questions. The questions are because most do not know to much how the systems on the scoots so the symptons help pinpoint the Bad Leg.
All I ever see all the time is stuff just thrown out, same holds true for the shops they do not know how to diagnose. They are really good at replacing parts and emptying out your wallet for parts that were not needed. Oh they will tell you it needed this and that when it was only one thing maybe even a bad fuse but that fuse cost you big bucks because once they put on a part that was not it they do not take it off YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT.
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Post by mattwg on Dec 24, 2012 2:14:21 GMT -5
Remote: The connections for the remote start are all good. It beeps and turns the lights and gauges on.
Tube Fuse: I don't really know how to use the meter but I turned the dial to what looks like AC 200 and it reads 32 on both sides of the tube fuse (the same value on both sides is what I want anyway right?)
Starter relay: my understanding at this point is if I can get the starter to turn by bridging the posts then the relay works?
Main grounds: My frame and engine grounds appear to be good as tested with my light tester.
Main wiring: All the connections to the harness look fine and firm.
So I guess that is pretty mush all the simple stuff... Now I guess its time to get to working through that stator testing diagram. Not looking forward to that...
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Post by jazzman on Dec 24, 2012 2:34:03 GMT -5
Since you do not know how to use the Volt Meter, take your LIGHT TESTER, clip the ground wire to a ground and touch one side of the fuse and if it is getting volts it will light. the important end of the fuse is the one facing the front of the scoot not the end faceing the battery. If the Test Light lights up there then the fuse is passing juice. If using the meter it should be set for DC because that is testing juice straight from the battery which is DC.
FORGET about the REMOTE,
TURN the key to on and squeeze the brake DOES YOUR BRAKE LIGHTS COME ON?
One thing is just because you jump the SOLENOID does not mean it is good, the contact inside can and do go bad so when you push the start button nothing happens. THAT IS IF when you squeeze the BRAKE the STOP LIGHTS COME ON which means it is getting juice.
You can test if juice is getting to the SOLENOID, you will see some little wires going into the SOLENOID turn the key on and tape the brake and test each wire your TEST LIGHT SHOULD LIGHT UP on one of the wires.
If the motor turns over but doesn't start then check for SPARK if no spark make sure your killswitch is on the run position. Also some have a killswitch on the sidestand make sure the sidestand it up.
Take the plug out or get a spare plug and HOLD THE PLUG on the motor or valve cover NOT ON THE FRAME. Crank the motor over and see if the SPARK PLUG IS FIREING.
If all that is good then you can try taking the KILLWIRE off the CDI it is the top BLACK/WHITE wire on the TWO PLUG side on the CDI, if you CDI is AC, Ifyou CDI is DC it will not have that wire.
IF the CDI is DC then the BOTTOM wire on the TWO PLUG will have Voltage with the KEY ON. Take your LIGHT TESTER and Check if it will LIGHT UP also follow that wire back and make sure it is connected WHETHER IT IS AC OR DC otherwise your CDI will not work no spark and no start. Your STATOR is one of the last things in testing for NO SPARK.
If no Spark Also check the wires connected to your COIL make sure they are makin good contact and tight on the COIL male connectors and the wires are not broken or burned.
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Post by mattwg on Dec 25, 2012 1:59:24 GMT -5
I've got no break lights when I turn the key and squeeze the brakes. Where does that lead me?
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 16:48:37 GMT -5
I've got no break lights when I turn the key and squeeze the brakes. Where does that lead me? You need to grab the remote start control and tap twice the electric bolt as if you're going to remote start it, that will activate your electronics. |
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Post by mattwg on Dec 26, 2012 0:36:46 GMT -5
ok so I did that and now when I first push the remote start it turns on the headlights and the tail lights. Then I press it again as though I were going to start it and the taillights turn off and the head light remains on. This is pretty much the pattern when I would start it with the remote start but it would start and then the tails would come back on and I would drive off...
So this has to be some kind of electrical component that has gone bad over the last 9 months that it has been sitting in my garage with the motor off.
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Post by jazzman on Dec 26, 2012 0:45:00 GMT -5
Ok, do not try to start it with the REMOTE but with the KEY on and squeeze the BRAKE and push the start button. But I will tell you this, if you squeeze the brakes and the lights do not come on NO JUICE is flowing to the SOLENOID.
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Post by jazzman on Dec 26, 2012 0:48:00 GMT -5
Did you follow the little wires going into the SOLENIOD back and see if it is plugged into the harness? If that is disconnected the SOLENOID will not work.
Also there is a SEQUENCE you have to follow once you use the remote. You have to turn it off with the REMOTE before you can start it without a remote and just use the key and squeezing the brake and start button.
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Post by mattwg on Dec 26, 2012 23:51:23 GMT -5
the starter relay and the solenoid are the same thing right? I think I am going to go ahead and order a starter relay. the scooter was having a hard time starting before I replaced the valves so it may be possible that I burnt it out with all the failed starts.
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Post by jazzman on Dec 27, 2012 0:04:40 GMT -5
Well you do what you want, you do not answer any of the questions asked or do anything anyone suggest, you just keep on asking questions but do not help yourself. Buying the SOLENOID=STARTER RELAY is NOT GOING TO TURN ON YOUR BRAKES LIGHTS.
So you can take it from here
Good luck
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Post by mattwg on Dec 27, 2012 13:31:04 GMT -5
ok so I did that and now when I first push the remote start it turns on the headlights and the tail lights. Then I press it again as though I were going to start it and the taillights turn off and the head light remains on. This is pretty much the pattern when I would start it with the remote start but it would start and then the tails would come back on and I would drive off... So this has to be some kind of electrical component that has gone bad over the last 9 months that it has been sitting in my garage with the motor off. |
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Post by mattwg on Dec 27, 2012 13:31:28 GMT -5
Remote: The connections for the remote start are all good. It beeps and turns the lights and gauges on. Tube Fuse: I don't really know how to use the meter but I turned the dial to what looks like AC 200 and it reads 32 on both sides of the tube fuse (the same value on both sides is what I want anyway right?) Starter relay: my understanding at this point is if I can get the starter to turn by bridging the posts then the relay works? Main grounds: My frame and engine grounds appear to be good as tested with my light tester. Main wiring: All the connections to the harness look fine and firm. So I guess that is pretty mush all the simple stuff... Now I guess its time to get to working through that stator testing diagram. Not looking forward to that... |
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Post by mattwg on Dec 27, 2012 13:39:00 GMT -5
How is it I am not doing anything anyone says and not helping myself. I've been freezing my ass off doing whatever I can both day and night with the equipment I have and know how to use. I even have stuff in my tools that I don't know how to use because I am willing to learn this stuff. I dont need to be insulted about not doing stuff people say
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Post by mattwg on Dec 27, 2012 13:47:39 GMT -5
I put everything back together as carefully as possible and it looks like right now there is some kind of problem with some very basic part of the electric that I am overlooking. All the attatchments to the harness look solid to me based on what I've heard in this thread. This is driving me nuts
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Post by jazzman on Dec 27, 2012 14:42:39 GMT -5
Ok, here is a picture of the SOLENOID, I labled the connections. 1. Squeeze the BRAKE and TAPE it. 2. Take your TEST LIGHT and connect the GROUND WIRE to the NEGATIVE SIDE of the BATTERY or FRAME 3. TURN ON THE KEY 4. Take the POINTED END OF THE TEST LIGHT and TEST each LITTLE WIRE I LABLED going to the SOLENOID. One of the wires should light your TEST LIGHT, normally it is the green with yellow. THIS TEST ONLY VERIFIES JUICE GOING TO THE SOLENOID.  |
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Post by mattwg on Dec 27, 2012 22:25:16 GMT -5
looks like neither of the wires are giving me a light and I put the needle deep into the wires.
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here is a 'go by' I had posted in the Tech section here. Follow it step by step best as you can according to your model. i.e your stator is most likely different than our Gy6 based engines...but the rest should be helpful. To check for fuel flow..pull off fuel line to carb..vac line from engine or intake...suck on vac line to see if gas flows...that will rule out your fuel pump..as for spark..this link should help..but as I said your stator may be different..but the rest should be helpful..