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Post by prodigit on Nov 8, 2012 15:57:15 GMT -5
You think it would be possible to be riding on a large cap instead of on a battery? (for the simple of mind, meaning, to disconnect the battery, and install just a capacitor)?
Probably have to kickstart the bike every time, however, would it be possible?
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Post by sharks06lly on Nov 8, 2012 16:01:19 GMT -5
why exactly would you want to? a battery is more reliable and able to store energy for a much longer period of time and you wouldnt have to kickstart it at all
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Post by inuyasha on Nov 8, 2012 16:03:16 GMT -5
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Post by prodigit on Nov 8, 2012 16:21:48 GMT -5
On these old topics there are a few things that they neglected to mention. A battery during WOT gets fully charged over a certain time. After this time, the voltage regulator has to drop ALL current/voltage, just like it would when there was NO battery connected. So in other words, it really does NOT matter if a fully charged battery is connected or not. And there's another thing I question, which I haven't found any decent answers on, is that the voltage regulator dumps excess energy to the ground, to regulate the voltage. That may be true, however, on my scooter, the stator seems to respond to heavy load, or no load at all! So it's not like the motor is at a constant ballast, but rather a fluctuating ballast depending on the electrical load on the bike. I'd say, try it for yourself! Install a heater coil (or resistor) on one of the 12V wires and the ground, and drive around, and see if your MPG's and top speed are affected or not! |
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Post by scootnwinn on Nov 8, 2012 16:31:04 GMT -5
You seem to have it all figured out, why ask us? Go ahead like Hank says and do it let us know how it works. I'm sure your life experience and internet reading is better than those dang engineers and their fancy degrees...
The use of the battery is just a conspiracy no doubt to continue to destroy the earth and make us pay for doing it.
Or
The real answer is current capacitors aren't capable of delivering what you are thinking they can deliver reliably and the system on your scooter is designed for a battery. Removing a piece of that system sets the whole thing off resulting in cascading failure of the individual components.
What the heck though try it any way just in case it is a conspiracy
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Post by prodigit on Nov 8, 2012 16:41:38 GMT -5
Like usual, scootnwinn, there is no need for your sarcasm, it may be left behind.
I'm not here to ask questions to people who have no opinion, I prefer to listen to people who DO have an opinion about the topic I'm asking about.
And, no, a stator only charges a battery in tiny amounts, several times a second. At those rates, a cap would work almost identical to a battery.
I don't know what kind of caps you had in mind, but I assure you I'm not talking about a cap you managed to get from a scrapped radio.
I'm taling about between 1/4 to 3Farad caps; they have plenty of capacity to run a bike (theoretically), and more... They just don't have the capacity to keep feeding the light bulbs when someone forgot their key in the ignition, nor do they have the capacity to engage the starter.
Next time, when you don't understand something, it's much nicer to ask, rather than to ridicule! It makes you seem very... well.. low class!
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Post by sharks06lly on Nov 8, 2012 16:56:41 GMT -5
i honestly wouldn't say that he is being a total ass. lets say you are even close to correct.... whats the point? a capacitor has nothing over a battery to make it better. and even if the battery goes dead you can still kickstart it just like u would have to do every time with a capacitor. plus like so many have said on here the kick start on these chinese scooters is pretty damn pathetic and it is not going to stand up to continued use.. so what then when the capacitor has no juice and the kickstarter is broke? i personally would much rather just have a regular battery and use my brain power thinking of other ways to better my scooter.
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Post by scootnwinn on Nov 8, 2012 16:59:43 GMT -5
I expressed my opinion sarcastically because well I enjoy it. Acting like you know everything and asking questions constantly showing you have a misunderstanding of the fundamental principals that you are in other threads presenting yourself as an authority on makes you seem very... well... ignorant.
I do fairly well and actually manage to contain my snide remarks on about 70% of the stuff you post and I assure you I work daily to be classier so that I might be accepted by the the entire internet at some point.
I normally answer your question clearly as I did above. You infer however that your idea is right regardless of what anyone may say to the contrary.
So seriously give it a try maybe your on to something.
Sarcasm will always be get used to it
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Post by prodigit on Nov 8, 2012 17:04:45 GMT -5
i honestly wouldn't say that he is being a total ass. lets say you are even close to correct.... whats the point? a capacitor has nothing over a battery to make it better. and even if the battery goes dead you can still kickstart it just like u would have to do every time with a capacitor. plus like so many have said on here the kick start on these chinese scooters is pretty damn pathetic and it is not going to stand up to continued use.. so what then when the capacitor has no juice and the kickstarter is broke? i personally would much rather just have a regular battery and use my brain power thinking of other ways to better my scooter. My point/question is not whether a cap is better than a battery, but if it is possible to replace the battery with a cap. Coming to a forum, that specializes in chinese bikes, I would presume at least someone has thought and tried this method before, and has come to some sort of conclusion. I'm merely saying because theoretically it's possible, however, practically it may be a total disaster to do this. |
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Post by qwertydude on Nov 8, 2012 17:36:17 GMT -5
We have thought of this and I've even tried it for a short period of time myself. Being an engineer it was just out of curiosity. It's a bad idea though.
It's been retread and comes up every now and then. But the jist of it is it puts undue strain on the electrical system. When you have such a low internal resistance such as with a capacitor it causes current spikes in the electrical system causing the elements such as the stator and voltage regulator to needlessly heat up. I can explain further with time constants and peak currents and I^2*R losses but I don't know how well versed you are in electrical engineering theory. But when I did it, the voltage regulator was unable to control the voltage reliably and at high RPM's I was getting too high a voltage on the output, averaging 16-17 volts and the regulator got pretty hot.
The regulator was simply not designed to go in a low resistance capacitor. A capacitor does not behave exactly like a battery and isn't a substitute for one. Also the kick starter was not meant to be used as the primary start method, it's for backup only. The teeth will round off pretty quickly and eventually you won't be able to start it.
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Post by jlee on Nov 8, 2012 17:57:00 GMT -5
prodigit - I'm not going to comment on the technical aspect of your question because I've already done so twice in other threads.
Instead, I'd like to give you a bit of constructive criticism.
First, I admire your passion and enthusiasm. However, you are cluttering many threads with misinformation and off-the-cuff suggestions that reveal your inexperience. That would not be quite so bad if you did not present your statements as absolute fact. Your ideas are all over the place and confusing the people who come here for genuine help. Again, bravo on the enthusiasm, but please think about watching your wording so as not to present your 'ideas' as fact.
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Post by dudley on Nov 8, 2012 19:03:25 GMT -5
He is curious and looking for more answers isn't that what discussion forums are for?
Apparently some here can and have tried this out of curiosity but he can't?
If everyone was experienced and an expert this forum would be boring instead of the rude place some of you seem to prefer.
Thank you hank for maintaining your politeness and decorum regardless of your views, wish others could do the same.
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Post by carasdad on Nov 8, 2012 19:16:59 GMT -5
Brilliant idea!!! Auto makers have been building cars for about 122 years.....amazing they never thought of this....  You may get a patent from Ford or Chevy.... Sometimes I don't know if the dude has ALL the answers...or ALL the questions. But some of the nonsense is entertaining....  But sadly many 'ideas' he has may really mess up a newbies scoot....not cool.  |
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Post by jlee on Nov 8, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5
He is curious and looking for more answers isn't that what discussion forums are for? Curious, yes. Looking for answers? Perhaps. But he pretends to know things and offer advice for which he has little knowledge. I am not referring to this thread alone, but to the hundreds of others where he has tried to come off as being an 'expert'. When he does ask questions, more often than not, he challenges every answer. Apparently some here can and have tried this out of curiosity but he can't? When did I ever say he couldnt try it himself? Don't put words in my mouth. |
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Post by inuyasha on Nov 8, 2012 19:22:35 GMT -5
He is curious and looking for more answers isn't that what discussion forums are for? Apparently some here can and have tried this out of curiosity but he can't? If everyone was experienced and an expert this forum would be boring instead of the rude place some of you seem to prefer. Thank you hank for maintaining your politeness and decorum regardless of your views, wish others could do the same. Hi Why thank you kindly my friend I love a good discussion whether its nonsense or not is up to you to to decide as an indivual And no matter your views on the subject matter be they pro or con imho theirs no need to be rude to others or inconsiderate of there feelings Take care and ride safely Yours Hank |
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Post by sharks06lly on Nov 8, 2012 19:33:53 GMT -5
i honestly do not think that i was being rude i just couldn't understand why even from a theoretical stand point that it was a viable option. this is a forum and as such everyone types and it is hard to read peoples attitudes and emotions through words so i do not take anything too seriously online  |
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Post by dudley on Nov 8, 2012 20:03:59 GMT -5
Comment not directed at you sharks.
My apologies if you thought so.
And I agree with you.
But sometimes you can tell and I prefer people who may be unintentionally irritating over those who do it on purpose.
And after this long election cycle I'm a little tired of people who are rude just for the sake of it.
Probably should have kept my mouth shut, but sometimes it opens and the words just fall out.
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Post by h3nry on Nov 8, 2012 23:39:39 GMT -5
i am just commenting on the kickstarters... i have had a dead bat for over 6 months in my scoot, always kick starting is, and so far there has been no failure at all ( i have made sure to get the bolt torqued down good before i started using it but that is all! )
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Post by volvonerd on Nov 9, 2012 0:43:03 GMT -5
Why not just remove the battery altogether?
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Post by prodigit on Nov 9, 2012 1:12:45 GMT -5
Thanks guys for your support!
I'm asking a lot of questions, and have a lot of ideas.
But just like we had a thread a while ago, of someone who thought he could improve his bike, by putting a bigger muffler on it, I explained what I have learned from this forum, and did not ridicule him for not knowing; neither did I judge him to be stupid, or treat him with sarcasm.
I think there's no excuse for treating people bad, not on a single forum, neither will you in real life!
I know, the forum is more hidden, and you can vent your frustrations, but if you did it in real life, you might end up with someone's fist in your face, and a bleeding nose if you're not careful.
I also admire Hank's professionalism in all of this, and when I look at people making fun of others, I just think that I was there as well, about 10 years ago.
Perhaps in 10 years those guys will mature, and start getting bored of laughing at someone else.
After all, they do evil to me, they probably do it to others as well. It's only going to end up returning to them.
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Post by prodigit on Nov 9, 2012 1:35:58 GMT -5
We have thought of this and I've even tried it for a short period of time myself. Being an engineer it was just out of curiosity. It's a bad idea though. It's been retread and comes up every now and then. But the jist of it is it puts undue strain on the electrical system. When you have such a low internal resistance such as with a capacitor it causes current spikes in the electrical system causing the elements such as the stator and voltage regulator to needlessly heat up. I can explain further with time constants and peak currents and I^2*R losses but I don't know how well versed you are in electrical engineering theory. But when I did it, the voltage regulator was unable to control the voltage reliably and at high RPM's I was getting too high a voltage on the output, averaging 16-17 volts and the regulator got pretty hot. The regulator was simply not designed to go in a low resistance capacitor. A capacitor does not behave exactly like a battery and isn't a substitute for one. Also the kick starter was not meant to be used as the primary start method, it's for backup only. The teeth will round off pretty quickly and eventually you won't be able to start it. I had thought of this peak theory a bit before as well. For the voltage regulator there should be no difference between a cap, and a battery, in that there will be more energy absorbed, instead of directed to the ground (didn't they say that more energy will be directed to ground, if the generated energy is greater than the consumed energy?). Anyway, the only way IMHO, that a cap causes peaks, is in the delivery of the energy. However, there have been batteries (Li batteries) that can reach very high peak/crank amps as well (in the 200's amps, or even more)! So, I think that the only part, that's vulnerable to these peaks, is the CDI; as the CDI still draws energy from the battery (or in this case, the cap). So in that I think the voltage regulator will be less ballasted than you projected it to be. Another thing is that a fully charged cap treats the voltage just like a fully charged battery, meaning it'll absorb whatever the voltage regulator gives it, a tad faster only. And the voltage regulator should not provide any voltage above 14V anyway. An empty cap, momentarily might draw more energy from the voltage regulator, but the fact that it can draw more amps, should actually mean that the voltage should be lower. So the voltage regulator will send more voltage to the cap in the beginning, until the cap has reached the 14V (usually that's within 1 second of turning on the bike). After the cap is charged, the voltage regulator just sends most generated power back to the ground, just like it would for a battery that's fully charged! |
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Post by qwertydude on Nov 9, 2012 3:25:24 GMT -5
There is a difference I don't think you're understanding how the charging system works. On 50cc scooters which use only half wave rectification, power pulses are particularly troublesome, and the average current ends up having higher peaks. Lower internal resistance in the battery and the power peaks go even higher even though average current stays the same. Since average current will stay the same the regulator is bearing the brunt of keeping the average current as stable as possible so it ends up sending those higher peaks to ground. That's how excess energy is absorbed in the system it's sent to ground and the power dissipated as heat by the regulator. But it's not just the regulator, there's internal resistance in the stator getting heated up. And once the resistance of a battery is eliminated the regulator is forced to dissipate too much power especially at higher RPM's thus voltage starts rising beyond the ability of the regulator to regulate which is why voltage can get too high at high RPM's those high current peaks are just too high for the regulator.
And you already made my point with lower internal resistance the capacitor absorbs the current faster regardless of voltage, it's the voltage difference over time that matters, which means with the same average current you get higher peaks, higher peaks means more heat in the system because of I^2*R losses.
Those peaks really do have a pronounced effect on the heat the regulator produces. If you don't believe me hook up a 1 farad capacitor to your scooter. I've done this already. Ride it around for 5 miles and then check on the temperature of you regulator if it hasn't burned out by then it will over time.
You're actually better off just running no battery than a capacitor, most scooters that do this just run a ballast resistor. Saves weight and saves money.
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Post by larrball on Nov 9, 2012 4:10:11 GMT -5
He is curious and looking for more answers isn't that what discussion forums are for? Apparently some here can and have tried this out of curiosity but he can't? If everyone was experienced and an expert this forum would be boring instead of the rude place some of you seem to prefer. Thank you hank for maintaining your politeness and decorum regardless of your views, wish others could do the same. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good call Dudley. Keeping the peace. Some of prodigy's threads are well written and very entertaining to read, they might not all be the better working ideal for mine and your scooter, but if it's anything you take away from his post's it's how to use that extremely hard to use "spell check". Folks we went through this crap back in 2010, let's not start up. ====================================== Now back to the scooters fluX-capactor for 2013. |
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Post by prodigit on Nov 9, 2012 4:45:54 GMT -5
I'm sorry to disagree, and without any disrespect, I just would like to share my opinion about this,
but for me, there's no reason to believe that the voltage would rise higher with a cap, than with a battery (We're talking about thousands of tiny pulses per second), because the voltage regulator will regulate the voltage at all times. Whatever energy that's been generated, needs to be released; and when the cap is charged to 13,8V, the voltage regulator will throw away just as much energy as when a battery is connected to it, as a bike can not consume more energy than what it can consume (lights, dash, CDI, those are the main electric energy consumers on a scoot, and they consume just about as much, with a battery, or with a cap).
It is true that a cap can charge quicker than a battery, and thus draw more power in the short time of it charging.
However, once the cap is charged, it acts much like a battery.
Also, there are scoots running perfectly fine with a Lithium battery. Those Li batteries can deliver upto 2 or even upto 500 cranking amps, way more than what most scoot wires can carry.
However the cap is most of the time not sucking power out of the regulator, but leveling off the voltage differentials and spikes. That's unlike charging from a zero charge, just dealing with 2-5V differentials, and a few amps.
Even if the cap can receive hundreds of amps, that does not mean that the stator can provide them.
It just means if the stator provides 10A, the cap will grab it, and if it provides 1A, the cap will grab that.
Likewise, it does not mean that the cap can provide hundreds of amps in a second, that it will deliver it. It depends on whatever device consumes that energy. If the bulbs only consume 2A, the cap will provide only 2A.
I'm still trying to envelop my mind around the idea of peak amp draw, as I believe those peaks to be so short, that they are of very little concern I believe.
Also, the stator delivers AC, which means the voltage regulator it does not provide a clean DC, but a rectified AC wave (basically hills instead of a flat line).
In that case, even if the cap can draw hundreds of amps, it can't do it, because the stator does not provide it immediately, but gradually builds up until it's peak voltage has been reached; and this goes on hundreds, or thousands of times per second; so the voltage fluxuations with a large cap will be extremely small, thus the power draws will be small too.
So even if the overall voltage would get higher with a cap, which would be strange, bu if it would be true,
then the leds/lights will just burn brighter, and the spark plug sparks harder, and those things will compensate the voltage differential.
Not meaning to disrespect you, or your ideas, but I'm trying to grasp what you're saying, but what you're saying in that voltage aspect makes little sense to me (I either don't get it, or it's just not there).
And even if it would be there, which may be, but I find it hard to believe, then the excessive voltage can easily be routed by putting a resistor in parallel to the resistor that is connected to the ground. But anyway...
I'll take your word on testing the cap. I don't want to run any unnecessary risk on my scoot, which will be the main reason I won't try it (yet), not because I believe the theory you explained me, but just because of caution. :-)
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Post by prodigit on Nov 9, 2012 4:50:49 GMT -5
He is curious and looking for more answers isn't that what discussion forums are for? Apparently some here can and have tried this out of curiosity but he can't? If everyone was experienced and an expert this forum would be boring instead of the rude place some of you seem to prefer. Thank you hank for maintaining your politeness and decorum regardless of your views, wish others could do the same. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good call Dudley. Keeping the peace. Some of prodigy's threads are well written and very entertaining to read, they might not all be the better working ideal for mine and your scooter, but if it's anything you take away from his post's it's how to use that extremely hard to use "spell check". Folks we went through this crap back in 2010, let's not start up. ====================================== Now back to the scooters fluX-capactor for 2013. I'm sorry that we do not all speak English. Perhaps you should try writing an article in Dutch, and see how 'correct' it would be? Please keep in mind, that there are a whole bunch of people who would get offended for ridiculing them for not 'perfectly' speaking English, despite all their efforts. Besides, I've seen worse... |
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Post by carasdad on Nov 9, 2012 7:03:52 GMT -5
@ prodgit.... as you said...."Also, there are scoots running perfectly fine with a Lithium battery. Those Li batteries can deliver upto 2 or even upto 500 cranking amps, way more than what most scoot wires can carry." YES they could...CCA is what the battery can deliver...NOT what it puts out constantly. The amount of amperage passing through the wiring is based on the demand of the starter motor. That is why some of junk scoots I work on do ok when the cheap person uses a lawn tractor battery under their seat...and I KNOW many here have folks do that. I don't agree with it...but hey...their scoot not mine. So your Amp theory is wrong. NOW if we were talking a higher voltage..say 24V Marine battery...NO the wires could not handle it. As for the cap....I am using the one from my sons 800W subwoofer..and it gives me an additional 15mph on the flats.. With all your ideas and suggestions....why don't you start your own business once you get a patent on your new found technology. Your writeups amaze me..one minute you have all the questions...and the next you have all the answers. You act as if no scooter..motorcycle....or auto company has EVER tried the things you post... |
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Post by Fox on Nov 9, 2012 7:25:45 GMT -5
NERD FIGHT!!  |
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Post by carasdad on Nov 9, 2012 8:28:20 GMT -5
NERD FIGHT!! ;D..... Not a nerd fight...I am trying to learn from the expert....soo umm..hey....keep it down in class so we can read the lesson being taught by the entrepreneur... |
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Post by 4950cycle on Nov 9, 2012 10:25:33 GMT -5
Lets not close our minds to new ideas like the other forum. Mankind gets nowhere like that. The auto companies don't do a lot of things that might work. They really don't have YOUR best interest in mind believe it or not. They do whats best and the most cost effective for them btw.
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Post by 4950cycle on Nov 9, 2012 10:27:52 GMT -5
Lets not close our minds to new ideas like the other forum. Mankind gets nowhere like that. The auto companies don't do a lot of things that might work. They really don't have YOUR best interest in mind believe it or not. They do whats best and the most cost effective for them btw.
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You may get a patent from Ford or Chevy.... Sometimes I don't know if the dude has ALL the answers...or ALL the questions. But some of the nonsense is entertaining.... 
But sadly many 'ideas' he has may really mess up a newbies scoot....not cool. 
