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Post by rockynv on Sept 22, 2012 5:37:10 GMT -5
Gotta pipe in here...It's been along time since ive ridden a SCOOTER over 63cc... but my old Piaggio BV200 would murder the bay bridge (in san fransisco) at over 80 all day every day and between cars as its legal there. I would drive to Oregon from san francisco without question or stopping for cool down. The entire ride it never lost its time. Now my Piggy died an early death at under 5k miles..... I can imagine that this is possible with a large motored china scoot. Even if you dont drive like me. Sorry for your loss. My Aprilia Sport City (250 cc Piaggio powered) has more than double that and is closing in on its second regulary scheduled oil change. It only sees below 45 mph for the first and last few blocks of may daily commute while the rest of the time it is 45 to 75 with brief stretches above to deal with the flow of traffic. |
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Post by leo on Sept 23, 2012 11:50:52 GMT -5
However, my point is simply that displacement does not determine cruising speed or even top speed.  correct. there are 3 things which determine top end: 1. max horsepower. 2. gear ratio. 3. wind resistance. all 3 of these must be dealt with to get the highest top end from your bike. |
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Post by prodigit on Sept 23, 2012 20:43:57 GMT -5
what about air intake, oil type, engine efficiency, exhaust size, tire type and inflation, injection type (direct vs fuel injected)..?
Granted, they only make for a small performance gain, but still they make up for something
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Post by leo on Sept 24, 2012 5:39:05 GMT -5
what about air intake, oil type, engine efficiency, exhaust size, tire type and inflation, injection type (direct vs fuel injected)..? Granted, they only make for a small performance gain, but still they make up for something none of these are related to displacement. all of them except tire type/ inflation is directly related to max horsepower. |
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Post by CCProf on Sept 24, 2012 7:50:01 GMT -5
My Xpeed 250i (Hyosung MS3-250) has an "official" rating of 85mph. I know folks who claim they've done 100 but the speedos are off by about 10%. I've pulled 75 coming up long hills on the 4 lane with no problem but the scoot's EFI, quad valve, DOHC, water cooled and rated at 24.7 hp. It's also Korean.
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Post by rockynv on Sept 24, 2012 23:12:11 GMT -5
what about air intake, oil type, engine efficiency, exhaust size, tire type and inflation, injection type (direct vs fuel injected)..? Granted, they only make for a small performance gain, but still they make up for something Actually the intake can be restricted or ported as a means to increase low end acceleration however the trade off is reduced top end. The tuned porting of the intake increases manifold vacuume for better atomization of the fuel charge from a dead stop when engine rpm and the volume of fuel charge flowing through the intake are at their lowest. It depends on what type of performance you value the most off the line quick starts or a higher top end. Some will put a secondary port that opens and derestricts the intake after a certain speed/rpm is reached. The porting is usually on the airbox side of the carb and can even be in the airbox itself. |
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Post by prodigit on Sept 25, 2012 0:07:35 GMT -5
From what i'm taught, you'll only gain performance, if you pressure the intake (like a turbo); which can be done when harvesting/directing the wind energy into the airfilter.
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Post by gregsfc on Sept 25, 2012 19:23:17 GMT -5
Lots of references in this thread to the Burgman 400 for highway travelers who want a scooter, but aren't their chaeaper options for a 70 mph cruising speed? Obviously the Piaggio BV500, Kymco 500i, and Majesty can cruise all day at 70 plus with a considerably cheaper price tag than the $9200 Burgman, but couldn't also the Syms 300i, Piaggio BV350, Kymco 300i, Vespa 300GT, and Vespa 300GTS come close to this feat as well?
I've got the 2013 Piaggio BV350. It's rated top speed is 86. It's listed at 32.8 hp and 23.8 peak foot lbs of torque and it's dry curb weight is 395. I generally cruise state highways at 62 mph to maximize mpg and my commute is 90% highway so it definitely works well for a highway cruiser for my needs. I don't know how it handles 70 for a cruising speed, but I've read that it can do it all day, and at $5495 MSRP, it sure is a cheaper method to cruise 70 on a scooter than a Burgman 400. I'm pretty confident the BV350 can do it and still provide long engine life, but others will have to chime in on the other 300s.
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Post by rockynv on Sept 25, 2012 21:48:10 GMT -5
Lots of references in this thread to the Burgman 400 for highway travelers who want a scooter, but aren't their chaeaper options for a 70 mph cruising speed? Obviously the Piaggio BV500, Kymco 500i, and Majesty can cruise all day at 70 plus with a considerably cheaper price tag than the $9200 Burgman, but couldn't also the Syms 300i, Piaggio BV350, Kymco 300i, Vespa 300GT, and Vespa 300GTS come close to this feat as well? I've got the 2013 Piaggio BV350. It's rated top speed is 86. It's listed at 32.8 hp and 23.8 peak foot lbs of torque and it's dry curb weight is 395. I generally cruise state highways at 62 mph to maximize mpg and my commute is 90% highway so it definitely works well for a highway cruiser for my needs. I don't know how it handles 70 for a cruising speed, but I've read that it can do it all day, and at $5495 MSRP, it sure is a cheaper method to cruise 70 on a scooter than a Burgman 400. I'm pretty confident the BV350 can do it and still provide long engine life, but others will have to chime in on the other 300s. I have the Sport City 250 and ride the interstate moving along with the faster traffic. Make the trip on I4 from Tampa to Orlando regularly with it. At $2,999 it is probably the most economical highway/interstate capable bike out there. A good sport fairing makes it a very capable ride. I would have thought the similarly sized BV350 (that is compared to my Sport City 250) with the extra 100cc and advertising 400cc performance would break 100 mph. |
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Post by WarrenS on Sept 26, 2012 9:17:07 GMT -5
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Post by prodigit on Sept 26, 2012 14:02:29 GMT -5
Yah, the 650 goes for around $10k around here!
Second hand you can find the burgman 400 for ~$3600 (with less than 30k miles on).
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Post by gregsfc on Sept 26, 2012 17:09:30 GMT -5
Lots of references in this thread to the Burgman 400 for highway travelers who want a scooter, but aren't their chaeaper options for a 70 mph cruising speed? Obviously the Piaggio BV500, Kymco 500i, and Majesty can cruise all day at 70 plus with a considerably cheaper price tag than the $9200 Burgman, but couldn't also the Syms 300i, Piaggio BV350, Kymco 300i, Vespa 300GT, and Vespa 300GTS come close to this feat as well? I've got the 2013 Piaggio BV350. It's rated top speed is 86. It's listed at 32.8 hp and 23.8 peak foot lbs of torque and it's dry curb weight is 395. I generally cruise state highways at 62 mph to maximize mpg and my commute is 90% highway so it definitely works well for a highway cruiser for my needs. I don't know how it handles 70 for a cruising speed, but I've read that it can do it all day, and at $5495 MSRP, it sure is a cheaper method to cruise 70 on a scooter than a Burgman 400. I'm pretty confident the BV350 can do it and still provide long engine life, but others will have to chime in on the other 300s. I have the Sport City 250 and ride the interstate moving along with the faster traffic. Make the trip on I4 from Tampa to Orlando regularly with it. At $2,999 it is probably the most economical highway/interstate capable bike out there. A good sport fairing makes it a very capable ride. I would have thought the similarly sized BV350 (that is compared to my Sport City 250) with the extra 100cc and advertising 400cc performance would break 100 mph. No not 100, but top speed is being debated. Speedos show a little over 90 by most accounts, but the error is about 5 mph and that error seems constant at all speeds above 40. I think the limit in the top speed is by design; the CVT or electronically controlled or something. The BV500, with a rated 40 hp is listed @ 99 mph top speed. Piaggio seems pretty accurate in their performance claims. If anything, they may be a little conservative. |
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Post by gregsfc on Sept 26, 2012 17:16:27 GMT -5
Your right. I got them mixed up. The Burgy 400 MSRP is $7600, but more than all 400s that I know of except the MP3 400, and more than many non Japanese 500s. The 650 MSRP is $9200 or there abouts. |
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Post by spandi on Sept 26, 2012 17:44:57 GMT -5
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Post by prodigit on Sept 26, 2012 18:24:41 GMT -5
On the 650, I believe the speedo shows 120MPH.
I suspect that Suzuki speedometers are accurate, unlike chinese bikes.
I've also noticed that my speedometer on my BMS, shows the speed too slow below ~30MPH, is correct between 30 and 35MPH, and then shows the speed too fast on speeds above 35MPH.
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Post by rockynv on Sept 29, 2012 13:32:33 GMT -5
I have the Sport City 250 and ride the interstate moving along with the faster traffic. Make the trip on I4 from Tampa to Orlando regularly with it. At $2,999 it is probably the most economical highway/interstate capable bike out there. A good sport fairing makes it a very capable ride. I would have thought the similarly sized BV350 (that is compared to my Sport City 250) with the extra 100cc and advertising 400cc performance would break 100 mph. No not 100, but top speed is being debated. Speedos show a little over 90 by most accounts, but the error is about 5 mph and that error seems constant at all speeds above 40. I think the limit in the top speed is by design; the CVT or electronically controlled or something. The BV500, with a rated 40 hp is listed @ 99 mph top speed. Piaggio seems pretty accurate in their performance claims. If anything, they may be a little conservative. I have GPS checked my Sport City and when it was approaching 100 the speedometer reads almost 95 (one time deal motoring with some fast lane traffic). I know Aprilia mods things to make them a bit hotter than Piaggio standard tune however I would have thought more from the Piaggio 350 after all the hype. Some of it may have to do with the porting of the intake to give the bikes more low end acceleration. Some may be surprized at how small the port can be and where it may be hidden. Sometimes it is just a rubber diaphragm with a nickle sized hole in the middle of it hidden in the airfilter housing. Some have been experimenting with tuning the port to better suite their riding style. Some of the performance claimes from installing a UniFilter really are the results of taking the tuned port out of the system. |
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Post by frigginjoe on Sept 29, 2012 20:46:13 GMT -5
My Jonway YY250T has no problem hitting 70 and remaining there for highway riding.
Max isn't that much faster, 80 or so on the best day, but holding at 70 was never a problem barring strong winds and inclines.
My Kymco XCiting 250 also had no issues at 70.
70's likely attainable speed, but I think the mindset when deciding on a 250cc scooter should be 60-65.
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Post by prodigit on Sept 30, 2012 18:06:06 GMT -5
rockynv: The rubber washers are generally only done on 2 stroke 50cc scoots I thought (to limit their speed to the legal speed of 30-40MPH of each state).
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Post by jlee on Sept 30, 2012 22:16:46 GMT -5
I have been amused by all the statements in this thread that go something like this: "scooter XYZ can't possibly go more than 62.3125 mph, and I have seen 25 years of rider testimony to prove it!".
ANY scooter can be made to reach 70, 80, 100mph on level ground. Let me repeat: ANY scooter can be made to reach 70, 80, 100mph on level ground.
Take a 50cc moped and put in tall enough gears, and it WILL go that fast. Sure, it may take 20 minutes to get there, but it WILL get there. Going uphill is a bit trickier, as you need to have enough power to overcome gravity and inertia from the bike and rider's weight. But on level ground, no problem.
My point is that many of these posts are meaningless and don't address the original question. I believe the spirit of the original question was "can a bone stock, unmodified, average scooter with a 250cc engine cruise at 70mph in varied terrain for a reasonable amount of time without fear of damaging something?"
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Post by prodigit on Sept 30, 2012 22:55:47 GMT -5
Uhm,
I remember my fellow school mates modding the crap out of their 50cc scoots, and not a single one of them reached over 55 mph.
Bigger cvt wheel, larger intakes.. There's a limit that a 50cc can do!
That was in the nineties though...
You could however add electronic fuel injection to improve those numbers a bit, and add an intercooler and a few super turbo's, essentially making a 50cc act like a bigger cc engine.
But it's seriously doubtful that you'll be able to make it go over 80MPH, unless you want to spend a couple of minutes of your time spooling up the turbo's...
Gravity is not the only thing that must be overcome. Wind resistance is like a multiplication, the faster you go, the more wind resistance there is.
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Post by jlee on Sept 30, 2012 23:03:40 GMT -5
Uhm, I remember my fellow school mates modding the crap out of their 50cc scoots, and not a single one of them reached over 55 mph. Bigger cvt wheel, larger intakes.. There's a limit that a 50cc can do! That was in the nineties though... You could however add electronic fuel injection to improve those numbers a bit, and add an intercooler and a few super turbo's, essentially making a 50cc act like a bigger cc engine. But it's seriously doubtful that you'll be able to make it go over 80MPH, unless you want to spend a couple of minutes of your time spooling up the turbo's... Gravity is not the only thing that must be overcome. Wind resistance is like a multiplication, the faster you go, the more wind resistance there is. You didn't mention changing the final gearing, which is what I said. No one would bother to do it, because it's not practical, but it IS possible. Wind resistance? Do you really think there's a huge difference in wind resistance between a 50cc, a 150cc, and a 300cc scooter? If anything, the smaller the scooter, the lower the wind resistance! |
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Post by jlee on Sept 30, 2012 23:10:46 GMT -5
prodigit - you are right, wind resistance IS a factor, I just don't think there is enough of it to prevent a 2-3 HP engine from attaining those speeds given the right gearing. It would take an awfully long time to get there, though, which is why nobody bothers to do it.
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Post by WarrenS on Oct 1, 2012 8:47:31 GMT -5
Draft a semi.  |
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Post by prodigit on Oct 1, 2012 11:38:20 GMT -5
In a sense you are right, a 50cc engine can get top speeds of upto ~133MPH (that's current world record I believe), however that's not without losing the 'cycle'-part of motorcycle, and replacing it with 'rocket'. Also, those improvements are not done only with just putting a larger gear on the bike.
There's a lot that need to be done, like taking care of overheating, etc..
A lot can be done to a 50cc scoot to make it go faster, one to lower the seat, and reduce aerodynamic drag. That's the main ingredients for improvement, along with a turbo to improve speeds.
But if you will still want to have some stock scoot looks, wind drag greatly reduces max speed.
4 stroke as well, as the world record is done I believe with a 2 stroke engine (which compares to a ~75-100cc 4 stroke engine in performance).
Sometimes I wished they had a 25cc scoot, which should be super cheap to buy, and super easy to mod! Put a turbo on it, and enlarge the air intake, put a sonic spark plug in there, or EFI, and perhaps get performances of upto 50cc scoots, for 1/3rd better mpg's!
Also CVT's aren't that great on scoots like these! It's better to have a gearbox, with perhaps 2 or 3 speeds.
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Post by rockynv on Oct 1, 2012 12:12:29 GMT -5
rockynv: The rubber washers are generally only done on 2 stroke 50cc scoots I thought (to limit their speed to the legal speed of 30-40MPH of each state). For limiting top end on 50cc bike yes they are used there also however they are built into the air box of even the 250cc bikes to enhance low end acceleration. On the Aprilia forums we have had some engineers trying a variety of air box mods to increase top end without sacrificing low end off the line performance by minor adjustment of the air boxs tuned port. |
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Post by inuyasha on Oct 1, 2012 12:28:40 GMT -5
rockynv: The rubber washers are generally only done on 2 stroke 50cc scoots I thought (to limit their speed to the legal speed of 30-40MPH of each state). For limiting top end on 50cc bike yes they are used there also however they are built into the air box of even the 250cc bikes to enhance low end acceleration. On the Aprilia forums we have had some engineers trying a variety of air box mods to increase top end without sacrificing low end off the line performance by minor adjustment of the air boxs tuned port. Hi Which aprilia forums are you a member of?I Would like to join a knowledgable one. And for the record my SR has hit a topspeed of 51mph so far and thats not even pushing her hard RPMs where at 6,500  aprilia gauge by inuyasha50, on Flickr At WOT i would think 55+mph would be possible Take care and ride safely dear friend Yours Hank |
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Post by stiv625 on Oct 1, 2012 12:34:46 GMT -5
I feel like 250cc is sketchy on the highway unless the speed limits are low and the terrain isn't too steep. It's definitely capable of 70 and probably then some balls out but I wouldn't even ride a 250cc sports bike on the highway. I personally didn't feel comfortable on anything smaller than my Ninja 500 to safely make highway trips. My requirements were keeping up with traffic at ~80MPH, have enough power and gearing to make high speed passes, and climb up to 8% grades at least 60MPH (but being able to push 100MPH on a mountain climb is nice to have too  ) |
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Post by bwgilbert on Oct 1, 2012 14:47:48 GMT -5
In Nebraska on I-80 at WOT all the way, I average 65mph (72ch/hr) going East to West and 74mph (84ch/hr) going West to East. The difference in speed is due to wind direction and elevation changes, but does average 69.5mph (almost 70mph) round trip. I believe that a +12% conversion between my speedometer to actual mph as derived from roadside radar sign testing is accurate.
To date, my 54B's top-speed (downhill and wind at my back) was 79mph (88ch/hr), although I'm still running with my stock roller-weights and an 856mm drive belt, although I upgraded to a Uni-filter, a drilled-out Universal FMF Turbine Core exhaust and an DPR8EIX-9 spark plug.
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Post by prodigit on Oct 1, 2012 16:30:50 GMT -5
Usually the max speed on the highway is 65MPH. Most cars drive 70MPH. But also usually, when there is a hill, cars will slow down too, so you won't need to drive 70MPH uphill. Most cars slow down to 60MPH, when they're crossing a large bridge. And so do most 250cc motorcycles.
IMHO, if you are searching for a bike with which you can zigzag between other cars, and do crazy azz shizz with like that, yes, get a 400cc or more.
I mean, for some 1000cc's isn't enough.
But then there are those for who a well built, well tuned 150cc is enough to go on the highway.
Like Honda/Yamaha/Aprilia scoots.
If you are going chinese, you'll need a 250cc, because the 150's won't keep up with the speed (unless you're driving behind a truck).
The EFI models can easily get over 75MPH all the time.
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Post by rockynv on Oct 2, 2012 9:53:14 GMT -5
Af1 Racing has a bunch of old timers that know their stuff but like most other forums you do have to watch out for the newbies and those that have gotten away with pushing the safety envelope long enough that they reccomend doing the same to others. You get to easily recognize the Squids (as they are called) by their posts promoting things like "there should be no speed limits", "a thick baseball cap is as good as a DOT helmet", "use 0-0 oil in your engine to save money on gas", "10 year old tires are just fine for highway use", "police officers are all bad", "riding the gutter is good", "getting a bunch of buddies to ride across all the lanes of an interstate at 25 mph is fun", etc, etc. The sponsors site is a good source of parts and accersories too. The local Aprilia dealer is St. Pete has a decent parts counter so I check both them and AF1 when I need anything. So far the local dealer has beat or matched the internet parts with shipping prices so I have been going with them for most items. AF1 has been branching out though on tires and now has the Michelin Pure Power even in the sizes for my Sport City so if the local dealer has not caught up when its come time to replace my front tire I may go with AF1 for that. I have about 1,000 miles left on the front tire now and will be replacing it at around 12,000 miles. www.apriliaforum.com/forums/forum.php |
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