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Post by garyr on Apr 16, 2009 21:09:36 GMT -5
Great post JR. Best of luck with the pump and cooler.
Garyr
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Post by usfmarine on Apr 16, 2009 22:09:02 GMT -5
Wow, I like the self-engineered and much cheaper solution. Looks good! I'm going to reread your post like 4 times now to try and understand all the steps.  |
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Post by anomoly40 on Apr 17, 2009 0:39:58 GMT -5
Thats how I wanted to do it, as you've seen in the other thread. How much was that pump you're looking into?
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Post by xs650 on Apr 17, 2009 3:25:03 GMT -5
Nice work!
You can also buy a ready made brass M12x1.5 to 1/8 NPT reducer bushing for the side drain. It's a standard fitting for instrument sensor mounting. I got mine as part of a set of 4 fittings at NAPA. It was Equus p/n 9848 for $6.49 at my local NAPA.
Does that pump or it's cousin also have potential as a fuel pump?
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Post by jackthefuzz on Apr 17, 2009 7:59:35 GMT -5
great job!!!! I would change one thing however. I would route the oil circuit so it draws oil from the left hand oil plug through the cooler and return oil through the big plug. the reason I say this is that the big plug is actually the bottom of the oil pump sump which is a small cavity. I would be worried that if you went the other way with it you possibly could draw the opil out of the sump at a rate faster than the sump can be filled by the oil in the block. something to think about
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Post by anomoly40 on Apr 17, 2009 11:51:19 GMT -5
jrryan, you plan on putting in a inline oil filter in the mix? I had looked at a local motorcycle shop and found some but after reading it was for 2 cycle's that have a oil reservoir and its used to filter the oil before it gets mixed. Not for pressurized hot engine oil.
Also, I'm in Conway and would love to come by and see your work sometime.
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Post by slowscootin07 on Apr 17, 2009 12:02:29 GMT -5
Vunderbar and +1 to ya  |
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Post by rocketdog on Apr 17, 2009 13:37:26 GMT -5
Nice work there Jrryan. I love that down home engineering.
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Post by sc150rider on Apr 17, 2009 14:10:07 GMT -5
You've got excellent timing. I've been wondering if a fuel pump could handle oil, but I do plan on running a filter also. I've got a remote fuel filter mount, but it's for a car filter. Figure I can (hopefully) make my own that could use a lawnmower oil filter. If not, then I'll use the 2 micron oil filter from Amsoil, putting it where my old airbox was...after I get a new air filter arangement. Being a 1 quart filter, that alone would have to help heat dissapation.
I have also rethreaded my oil drain plug (side one) for a 3/8" pipe thread. Then put in a bushing, put in the 1/8" threaded oil temp sensor, then found out about the problem you mention about the center stand hitting it...it wore the wires right off the sensor. At least now you have given me hope for a new use for that plug.
Good luck and...ARE YOU DONE YET!?!?!
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Post by usfmarine on Apr 18, 2009 0:00:36 GMT -5
jrryan,
So the oil falls through the drain plug, gets pumped through your condenser/heatsink thing, and then the oil returns from where it came from at the drain plug? Am I understanding this correctly?
That's a cool fuel pump you found. It's the right flow, amperage, and price for the standard fuel pump upgrade.
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Post by JR on Apr 18, 2009 4:49:59 GMT -5
US Marine The GY-6 has your main oil drain plug on the bottom of the engine and has the spring and screen in it. The engine on what I call the left side also has another 12mm bolt oil drain plug. Even when you drain the oil from the main one on the bottom if you screw this bolt out you will still get a little oil come out of this hole. Some guys say leave it alone it's easy to strip the threads some say not. The only issue I had with it was I thought I was going to have to get my impact out to get it loose as it was some tight!!
Take a look at each set of valves I have in the pictures, one of them is a valve on that hard to get out 12mm bolt that I also show in the drill press and finished with the nipple installed in it and the other is a valve set up in the main bottom oil drain plug. On the bottom oil drain plug I put a T on this and actually have two valves on it, one for just the convenience of draining my oil when I want to change it and the other valve is to the cooler itself.
None of these valves are necessary as you can just put a 90 degree fitting with a hose barb connector on each oil drain plug and hook it up to the hoses but I put them on there for my own convenience and I think it will make it easier to prime the pump as I will explain later and also to simply change your oil. Also the valves to me are a good idea to have a oil shut off say if you developed a leak out on the road, if so just shut the valves off until you get home for repair. Another thing is in the wintertime you need no cooler so again just shut the valves off.
Now with all this said the oil will be pumped from the left side oil drain valve through the cooling condenser and back to the bottom oil drain valve. I at first was going to pull the oil from the bottom oil drain and return it to the left side plug but I have unless someone tells me another good reason that I shouldn't ,now have decided to pump the oil from the side oil drain plug to the bottom oil drain plug. As I mentioned before this pump will have enough suction to pull the oil so I am going to put it on the return side of the cooling condenser so the oil will be cooler when it gets to the pump. Also if the voltage looks good I plan on adding a cooling fan for more cooling ability. Yes this is a good fuel pump for a electric fuel pump upgrade for the reasons you mentioned and what I like also is a US location for customer support instead of trying to communicate with someone from China. This is not a Chinese pump!! They are by their website putting in a new warehouse right now. The engineer also told me that they have very good success with this pump on autos also. It is a very good looking pump we'll see if it'll handle the hot oil, keep your fingers crossed!!
I'm up early and so far no rain but it's coming so I hope to get all finished this morning and start testing, will as always keep all posted. JR
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Post by JR on Apr 18, 2009 15:30:30 GMT -5
Well guys the rain moved in and it's pouring like a cow peeing on a rock!!! But it held off long enough for me to get the pump installed and all wired up and ready for priming and a test!! I moved the scooter to under the garage to get her all primed up. ;D  I mounted this pump right on the belly pan and right on top of the vent that is in the belly pan as I figured this would help the pump stay cooler.  I installed a LED on/off switch and I especially wanted it lighted because this is mama's scooter and this pump is so quite the only way you know it is on is to put your hand on it. I read a thread awhile back about a guy saying his fuel pump was too loud, well you don't have that problem with this pump so with a lighted switch you will know on from off and it's the only way!   Now I cut out the plastic grill nice and tight for a factory look on the cooler and even gave it a little shot of new black paint, looks like it came with the scooter. I got to make it look good because mama is mad at me for working on her scooter, I had it down yesterday and it was pretty weather. She gave me you know what for that, as she was ready to take a scooter ride, at least today I have the rain to save me!!   Now remember when I said I put an extra T in for priming purposes? Well I screwed in a temporary hose barb and hooked this short piece of 1/4" clear plastic tubing to it and then put it in the oil fill spout and now I'm ready to start priming the pump. Remember I am pulling the oil through the cooler from the other drain plug on the left. I opened that valve and left the one on the bottom drain plug closed so the oil would go through the clear tubing so I could see how well the pump did with the oil and also could see when all air bubbles are out.  Now I took a gear oil squeeze bottle and cleaned it up and put my favorite oil in it and hooked it to the priming hose that I have fit under the gas tank cover. I just pulled out my plug and inserted the bottle and turned on the pump and squeezed the lines full of oil. The pump picked it up and started flowing it through the clear tubing right into the oil spout. I had to do this several times until the pump pulled the oil all the way through the cooler and all the air was out.  It flows real slow and that's what I want and then I turned the pump off and shut the valves back off and removed my clear tubing and put a threaded plug in the place of the temporary hose barb. Next I let the oil settle down in the engine and checked the level and since I was adding oil to prime it I figured the engine might be a little too full and I was right. So I just put a clean oil bottle under my new drain valve and drained out enough oil to get the level just right!! Now for the main test! I fired her up and let the engine get nice and warm and then turned on the oil pump and it took several minutes but the oil cooler finally warmed up and let me know the oil was circulating!! There is one problem though and I am going to fix that. The pump so far is purring right along but it's too early to tell how well it's going to hold up to the heat. I let the scooter get good and hot before I turned the pump on but it's only 65 degrees today with the rain here. Back to the problem I mentioned and it's my fault and I didn't think about it until I watched the pump move the oil and it's the oil I like to use. In the summertime I like to use 20/50W oil, my Castrol. Always have good luck with it and in the wintertime I use a thinner oil. Even though this little pump is pulling this thicker oil I know it will do better and certainly prime easier with 10/40W oil so I plan on finish putting it together and changing the oil to 10/40W oil and then I see no priming or pumping problems from there. JR  |
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Post by anomoly40 on Apr 18, 2009 17:10:37 GMT -5
Sorry I couldn't get out there today. I had to finish changing my wife's oil with a wet back. I just left them out there and let the same guy who's watering your garden wash the cars.  Very nice talking to you today. |
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Post by Kaos on Apr 18, 2009 17:45:05 GMT -5
the one thing i am confused about is exactly how you change the oil now.
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Post by JR on Apr 18, 2009 18:51:52 GMT -5
 Simple as pie you just open this valve and put your drain pan under the scooter. Also if you want to you can turn on the pump and it will speed the process up. Also if you look a guy can unhook one hose and take a 17mm open end wrench and screw the oil drain plug out with the vavle assembly still intact as it will clear the engine, then remove your screen, clean it, put it back in and re-attach the hose!! Nothing to it! Yea I hate it anomoly40 that you couldn't come and right now the sun has popped out at old Perryville. Hey maybe tomorrow if you can get all of your chores done!! LOL You missed a good chance at seeing the master at work today!! LOL LOL JR |
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Post by Kaos on Apr 18, 2009 20:22:57 GMT -5
can you provide the source/part number for the valves?
It gets hotter than 40 hells here in NC in summer and I will be doing a lot of low RPM "stop and go" city riding.
I wonder where one could find a little radiator like that hmmmm...
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Post by harrywr2 on Apr 18, 2009 20:27:40 GMT -5
can you provide the source/part number for the valves? I wonder where one could find a little radiator like that hmmmm... Junk yard...the thing is a standard transmission cooler. |
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Post by Kaos on Apr 18, 2009 20:33:04 GMT -5
can you provide the source/part number for the valves? I wonder where one could find a little radiator like that hmmmm... Junk yard...the thing is a standard transmission cooler. argh...after spending 10 years working on cars i cannot believe i did not recognize this fact . ok now for the the source/part number for the valves? |
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Post by JR on Apr 18, 2009 21:50:51 GMT -5
OK guys I'm trying to get a scoop on this little cooling condenser as I wrote the info down on it. One it's made in Japan so I have to figure it's on a Honda or another Japanese car. Also in this case Harry it was an engine oil cooler as the old oil I boiled out of it was not transmission oil but was for sure engine oil so I figure it went on a small 4-cycl. car or truck. When I went to the wrecking yard they had a good pile of these on the shelf so I just started going through them as he had just about every shape and size a guy could want, a lot of salvage yards stock a lot of these things. This wrecking yard like a lot of them is not the cleanest place in the world so that's another reason I boiled it out good with boiling water, it cleaned up real good and as I stated I put a little black spray paint on it to make it look like new! The key for all is to measure your spot where you think you might want to put it, preferably in the front. As far as the fittings and valves I got mine at the local auto parts, mine is the Bumper to Bumper or Crow Burlingame and I just went to the brass fittings bin and started picking out what I needed. You know guys the bins where they have every brass fitting you can want from standard 1/8" NPT to 90 degree elbows and Tees. Heck I even considered using this valve for my drain valve; cgi.ebay.com/AIR-FITTING-1-8-NPT-DRAIN-COCK-VALVE-BRASS-6-PCK-A1272_W0QQitemZ350187399412QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item350187399412&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116The valves they have are good for oil, air and water and have a tensioning spring on them to hold them in the position you want. I didn't pay attention to the part numbers or brand. I would also say a good ACE or True Value hardware will have a good selection too. As I mentioned a guy can find a lot of this on Ebay. Also as I mentioned I used Gates 1/4" fuel line hose as it is braided good and we looked up the specs and it is rated for 257 degrees, they also sell transmission oil line that is rated higher than that. The brass hose barbs I used were 1/8" NPT X 1/4" and of course I used good hose clamps. As i stated before it isn't written in stone that you have to use brass because brass fittings are expensive, plain steel fittings that a guy can get at the hardware will work. I'll try to get the scoop on this cooling condenser and if I get lucky and identify what vehicle it came off of I'll let everyone know. JR |
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Post by Kaos on Apr 18, 2009 21:59:34 GMT -5
cool thanks dawg!  |
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Post by JR on Apr 18, 2009 22:22:27 GMT -5
Hey guys one thing I forgot to mention is scooters have different set ups as far as the center stand goes and if your scooter is similar to my Bali 150 then be sure to pay attention to how you turn your fittings and don't let the center stand hit or rub them when you put it up. Both of this oil drain plugs are close to the cross brase on my center stand so I put my fittings on making sure I cleared it in the process. JR
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Post by JR on Apr 19, 2009 7:18:21 GMT -5
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Post by JR on Apr 19, 2009 15:44:47 GMT -5
Good afternoon all scootdawgs from old the sun came out and I got to test my scooter Arkieland! Got up this morning to thunder and rain but it blew out by 9:00 a.m. and in the mean time I hauled it to Wally world to get some Castrol 10/40W oil. Got back and said well ya got to get the thicker oil out and how would be the easiest? Had a brain storm and here it is. I shut off the feed and return lines to the oil pump and started the scooter and let her warm up and after a bit put my drain bottle under the drain spout and the oil was out in just a bit. I filled the engine to the right mark and fired her up again and got the oil nice and hot.  Now heres where I had the new idea. In this picture I have removed the access drain plug and put in a hose barb and hooked up my short piece of clear tubing and put it in the oil bottle as the oil I am draining is still very good oil and I want to save it. Then I open the left oil feed line valve to the cooler and also fill my engine to almost the top of the inlet spout with the 10/40W oil and the engine is still nice and warm. I then turn on the cooler pump and let it pull the new oil through the system while it is pushing out the thicker oil in my bottle! ;D As the new oil worked it's way through the system it became very apparent when it had went all the way through as the pump moved it faster than the thicker 20/50W oil. I then turned the pump off and checked the engine oil level and it was still too full. So I just put the tube in another clean empty 10/40W bottle and pumped it into the bottle until I reached the desired engine oil level! Just think guys you can change your dirty oil like this too!! . Do it all in the same order; (1) shut off cooler feed line valves (2) drain engine oil (3) Fill engine with clean oil (4) install temporary clear tubing drain tube (5) turn on cooler feed line valve (6) turn on pump and pump old oil in bottle to dispose of and when good clean oil shows up in the tubing you know all the cooler system has been flushed with new oil!!!! ;D (7) Check engine oil level, adjust accordingly and remove temporary clear tubing and plug hole. You're done and no priming the cooler again, there will be no need if you drain it like this. Heck you can sit in a chair and drink a soda pop while it drains!!  I also wanted to show you a picture of the cooler priming line, it's sitting right with the MP3 player cord under the gas tank cover if you ever need it again. So after all that I put it all back together except I did leave the right side bottom panel off so I could easily inspect the system and pump because the sun came out and it was time for a road test!! ;D I jumped on and headed out! Let her warm up good and turned the pump on. I rode the snot out of this thing went up and down perryville mountain 8 times. took her down some straight stretches and run her at WOT!!! I stopped about every two or three miles and checked for leaks and also checked my little pump, all was fine!! This little pump is working like a champ!!The oil cooler was warm but not hot, you could easily put your had on it but you can put your hand on the feed line from the engine and it's hot! But when you hold the outlet line from the cooler it's a whole different ballgame!! Now I've got two more tests to do and one is I'm going to measure the amp load of the pump, doing it on a cold engine and a warm engine and two, some before and after temperature checks!! I think for sure this pump is actually pulling less than an amp because I have not seen the voltage gauge drop even the slightest, but I want to know for sure. I have done a complete LED change out on this scooter so I have some extra watts to spare. In fact for all you guys who like the electric fuel pump I see no reason as to why you can't use one of these pumps for the oil cooler and one for the fuel pump, both at the same time. I've read where guys on the 150's especially have trouble with their electric fuel pumps draining their battery because of it pulling too many amps. Not this pump, 1 amp is the most it will pull and it's rated at 1 to 2 psi so no regulator! Plenty of flow 20GPH and heck it's priced right compared to others $40 with presently free shipping. Comes with all the hardware to install it and even a fuel filter. Now Here is a breakdown of my parts and costs; Fuel/oil pump $40 Cooling condenser $5 Hose & clamps $10 LED Switch $3 Valves and Fittings $40 Total $98 Now as I said before one could cut the cost by shopping especially on the valves and fittings and maybe even the LED switch. If you're like me you always have some wire around and some ends so I didn't add no costs for that. Now only time will tell todays temps was 65 degrees at test time and the real test will be if the pump can hang when the hot summer comes and I believe it will. Also one might ask other than a cheaper solution to the cooler rather than the $200 set up is there any advantage and I say YES!! When you are using the one that depends on the drain plug hook up for pressure and also the return you are asking this engine with it's poor pumping system pressure to do the work and I believe the flow will vary with the engine rpms and the terrain that you are riding on. Where as on this system you are letting a pump do the work and the flow stays the same no matter how hard or what terrain you are on or even what rpm it is running at. The flow and the amount of oil it cools will always be the same CONSTANT!! The pump could care less what the engine is doing. BTW this set up adds just about a quart of oil to the system. I am still trying to get the scoop on this little cooling condenser, it's made by Denso part # 024100-8092. I have emailed Denso with the hopes of getting what vehicle this is installed on because it's a great little cooler. That's about it for now guys, will post results as they come JR |
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Post by xs650 on Apr 19, 2009 16:10:04 GMT -5
JR, Google popped up a Scandinavian site that had a Denso 024100-8092 oil cooler for sale. It was for a 1999 Mitsubishi Pajaro. Probably fits a lot of other Mitsu products and who knows what else?
Since you have a good relationship with the pump company, would you ask them for suggestions on how to use one of their products for a scooter? The pump you have shows apeak pressure of something like 22 psi IIRC. Maybe they have a way of lowering that to our range or some clever idea on how to regulate it. Since they work with that stuff everyday, they might have a good solution.
One possibility is toput a T on the pump outlet and run a return line from the fuel pressure side back to the fuel tank, backwards through a check valve with a cracking pressure of 1 psi. That would be a crude poor mans 1 psi pressure regulator. We only need 1/2 psi.
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Post by harrywr2 on Apr 19, 2009 16:23:12 GMT -5
JR, Google popped up a Scandinavian site that had a Denso 024100-8092 oil cooler for sale. It was for a 1999 Mitsubishi Pajaro. A Pajero is marketed as a Montero is the US. |
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Post by xs650 on Apr 19, 2009 16:53:08 GMT -5
JR, Google popped up a Scandinavian site that had a Denso 024100-8092 oil cooler for sale. It was for a 1999 Mitsubishi Pajaro. A Pajero is marketed as a Montero is the US. For good reason. Pajero means wanker in several Spanish speaking countries. ;D I was wondering why Mitsu was calling one of the models a wanker. |
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Post by anomoly40 on Apr 19, 2009 16:56:19 GMT -5
Could possibly use a Mitsubishi 300zx cooler as well.
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Post by JR on Apr 19, 2009 18:57:09 GMT -5
Oh No not a wanker!! Mama just took a good look at her new oil cooler today and after telling her about all the benefits she has finally warmed up to it and I might get out of the dog house tonight but if she finds out this I'll probably need to wanker!! Shhhhhhhh!!!! Ya'll be quite now!! LOL JR
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Post by anomoly40 on Apr 19, 2009 19:49:32 GMT -5
Well I'll pay more attention to hers, and say that was a good idea, how much it will help, exend the life of the engine etc...
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Post by JR on Apr 19, 2009 22:43:59 GMT -5
Thanks Anomoly40 she's getting there and ya know women they don't understand the mentality of we just have to see if we can improve things! LOL And she did say well it doesn't look like I thought it would as in that's her way of saying I did a good job! I'll even have to say I out did myself this time too. JR
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