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Post by neuro on Jul 27, 2008 15:53:47 GMT -5
Of course we all must do our best to watch out for the unexpected as we scoot, giving lots of room between ourselves and the cages, staying out of blind spots, etc...etc... I know in an emergency it will be hard to think and plan... but that's just what we have to do when faced with a possible collision. When choosing between crashing into a vehicle and possibly suffering serious physical harm vs. laying your scoot down on purpose and hopefully only getting road rash, the choice is easy. This is why in 95 degree weather I've got a denim jacket, leather gloves, jeans, boots and helmet. In the battle between asphalt and skin, asphalt always wins.
So being a new driver, I'm seeking feedback on those of you that have laid your bike down to avoid collision. Any advice? neuro
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2008 16:23:50 GMT -5
If you lay your bike down wearing a denim jacket I think you'll find that denim isn't very asphalt resistant.
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Post by gusset on Jul 27, 2008 16:27:42 GMT -5
The only time I can think it would be good to lay the bike down would be if staying on it would toss you over a cliff, overpass, or into some other brand of long drop.
You'll slow down faster staying on the bike's rubber tires under braking than you will sliding down the road. All you might end up doing by intentionally laying it down is sliding into the same object at a higher speed than if you'd stayed on the bike.
Good discussion topic.
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Post by neuro on Jul 27, 2008 16:31:07 GMT -5
I was thinking that sliding into the car that just slammed on its breaks is better than hitting it head on (even while breaking) and flying off your bike!
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Post by Rockin Ran on Jul 27, 2008 17:29:44 GMT -5
I would suggest taking a Safety Course(mine is in Sept). Many are offered for Basic and Experienced bikers in Tenn for around 100 to 150 bucks. Plus if you pass the written and obstacle course, in Tenn they will give you a certificate where you can walk into the DMV and get your "M" endorsment. Here is the state site ... www.tennessee.gov/safety/mrep.htmYou can also Google TN motorcycle safety and find a school. Be safe and happy scootin! Ran
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Post by gusset on Jul 27, 2008 17:59:08 GMT -5
I was thinking that sliding into the car that just slammed on its breaks is better than hitting it head on (even while breaking) and flying off your bike! Yikes! Lose/lose situation you've just described. Either way, you're going to hit the thing, so it's going to hurt. What I'm suggesting is that, assuming you are still in control of your bike and are braking at a high force, you'll be going slower when you hit it if you stay on the bike. It takes time/distance to "put the bike down" (my words), then there's the time/distance you spend sliding along the ground into the hypothetical car. Those are times and distances that would otherwise be used actually slowing down at a greater rate (brakes) prior to hitting the car. Either way it's not going to be pleasant. Better to be on the bike and hit the car after having slowed to 20mph than to slide into both your bike and the other car at 30 or 35, is what I'm advocating. Here's to not finding out!!!
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Post by mortar235 on Jul 27, 2008 18:30:13 GMT -5
i think you may have watched too many hollywood action flicks. But i suppose it would be a good idea if you ever have to slide underneath a semi-truck trailer ;D
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Post by phaze on Jul 27, 2008 19:48:52 GMT -5
you dont lay your bike down intentionally un less thats the option you choose.
your much better heading off road if it is safe to do so, panic is not what you want i talk myself thru it believe it or not,
i was on my enduro and i was turning down a street and a car was pullin up but was in the middle of the road so i turned in, and everything was fine till my back tire hit the bubblin tar,
as it started to slide i put all my weight on the bike and dragged my foot on the ground everything was good till the bike slowed and the tires caught i was sent about 10 feet away. i still feel the pain.
you want to try and never lay your scoot down but if you have to grab a handle ful of rear brake and steer the way you want to be pointed if your strong enough these can actually be drifted if you got the balls, thats how i would do it you want to stop the fastest. schreechin tires sound is what you want not plastic grindin you have to modulate brake as the abs sucks oh yeah this wont work wearin flip flops.
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Post by WarrenS on Jul 27, 2008 20:34:44 GMT -5
You have 3 things you can do in any situation. Accelerate, brake, and maneuver. As long as you are on the scooter you are in control. Laying the scoot down should never be an option. You give up all other options and are not in control of anything.
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Post by neuro on Jul 27, 2008 20:41:21 GMT -5
It's not that I've been watching too many movies. I was talking to a biker yesterday who described a situation in which he had to lay his bike down rather than hit directly. I can only assume that those two options were his only choices. Of course one would look for more defensive maneuvers first... but I was looking for answers to those hypotheticals.
Thanks for the feedback all, and drive safely. Rockinran, I already have my M endorsement. And I'm hoping to never have to come up against these hypotheticals.
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Post by bike4miles on Jul 28, 2008 12:42:48 GMT -5
Remember that you slow down the fastest when you are ABOUT to skid. There is never a "good" time to skid! Even if you are going to hit something you will slow more if you keep your head and don't lock up your tires.
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Post by gfrphoto on Jul 28, 2008 15:47:57 GMT -5
During my MSF Basic Rider's course we had 2 people in my class lay the bikes down. Of course these were heavy bikes not scooters, they handled a little bit differently, however most of the principles are the same. Being a class of mostly Newbies, they both laid the bikes down on the same part of the final driving test, getting up to about 18-20mph then braking. Well it had just rained right before the time we had to do the final test - go figure no rain all weekend until then. So everyone was a bit apprehensive with the test because of this.
Anywhooooo I'm getting off subject. The first person to drop the bike applied too much front brake and kinda let it slide out from under her smashing down to the ground and sliding... She too full impact and had the bike laying on her leg.. Other than some bruising a slight limp (and hellishly sore the next day I can assume) she was ok...
The 2nd student to drop, he was a bit smarter when the bike started fall after locking up he pushed it away correcting his body position in the short trip to the ground which allowed him to roll twice and kinda pop up onto his feet. Ok - the bike too more wear and tear - but you see he push off the bike - giving some of his momentum back into the bike and rolling out slow and easy. He came out with smiles and embarrassment.
So my point being that - if you are going to lay it down - don't just go with it. get away from it. last you want too is some spilling fuel and flames, or burned legs from the tail pipe... Or get a foot caught under the bike and dragged. And of course we are talking about mere seconds or less to think about this, but if you NEVER thought about it - you wont be able to formulate an escape plan in mere seconds or less.
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Post by cheap0 on Jul 29, 2008 11:56:15 GMT -5
I would suggest taking a Safety Course(mine is in Sept). Many are offered for Basic and Experienced bikers in Tenn for around 100 to 150 bucks. Ran, why wait until September? Are they all booked up? www.midtennmotorcycle.com/ has numerous offerings in August. There are others in the Nashville area. Neuro, see my thread here about this. If you can talk them into scheduling an experienced rider class in the Memphis area, let me know and I'll be there with you! (I'm only in AR for a job, I'm a permanent TN resident actually.) Yeah, I have the "M" too, but I think this class thing wouldn't hurt, and they say it will reduce your insurance. Oh haha, I just looked at www.cyclesafety.net/ ... they have scheduled a class for Oct. 4, new since I last looked. I guess I'll sign up for that, but I'd rather have it sooner.
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Post by harrywr2 on Jul 29, 2008 17:36:35 GMT -5
Written test on my DMV exam shows an imminent collision. Question - Your brakes are locked up,what should you do? (I was thinking kiss my backside goodbye...but that wasn't one of the choices) Answer - Keep them locked up. Once your tires are skidding...the gain you get from pumping the breaks is lost on the time it takes to pump the breaks. The slower you are going when you impact the better off you will be....if you are still upright on impact you will go over the car...been their done that...going under is not a good idea. Motor Cycle Safety Foundation Stopping Distances. www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/a-Green-ComparisonofStoppingDistance.pdf
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Post by gusset on Jul 29, 2008 17:48:56 GMT -5
I believe the reason you want to keep the rear locked up is that if you let it regain traction, and it has slid sideways past a certain amount, it will snap back "straight" in a violent fashion, leading to a high side. I don't think it has to do with time lost pumping. See tip #1 in this menu ("Highside Dynamics") for the details and an explanation by someone that knows a lot more than I do: www.msgroup.org/articles.aspx
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 19:21:59 GMT -5
I believe the reason you want to keep the rear locked up is that if you let it regain traction, and it has slid sideways past a certain amount, it will snap back "straight" in a violent fashion, leading to a high side. I don't think it has to do with time lost pumping.. .. Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! ;D Unless you have the forethought to release the rear brake before the back end has slid around, it's definitely better to keep it locked.
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Post by Aerostudent on Jul 29, 2008 20:27:36 GMT -5
1) laying the bike down means you are going to stay going in that direction, if you keep the bike up, you can still stear
2)laying the bike down increases stopping time, you can stop a LOT faster if you use breaks, metal on pavement does not have the same traction as rubber on pavement.
3) I'd rather go over a car an continue to skid on the ground that get stuck under a car with a bike/scooter on top of me and a driver that STILL may not know/care that I exist.
Just my line of thinking. Remember, laying the bike down to avoid an accident is an oxymoron. The pros that I took the MSF course from had slightly varying oppinions and reasonings, but pretty much identical to mine. If I lay the bike down, it will be from some mistake of mine or the other driver pushing me over, rather than on purpose.
Aero
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Post by gusset on Jul 29, 2008 22:22:11 GMT -5
+1 Aero. My thoughts exactly.
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Post by Cookees on Jul 30, 2008 11:57:50 GMT -5
Ummm..laying it down ain't all it's cracked up to be:
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Post by gfrphoto on Jul 30, 2008 18:32:29 GMT -5
That's pretty...... gross... Is that your leg?
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Post by jb on Jul 30, 2008 18:50:23 GMT -5
Man I sure as heck hope I don't have to lay my bike down at some point. When I first got it all the gear I had was a helmet and gloves. For the first week I rode around a bit nervous I would crash and tear the skin off my arms. Thankfully a co-worker gave an old Joe rocket jacket. It's a bit small but it's much better than road rash. As soon as I started wearing a jacket I started worrying about crashing and skinning up my bottom half. Pants will be on order soon. Does this make me some kind of OCD gear freak? Anyways, I've started forcing myself to constantly think over 5 ways to escape should something happen in front or behind me while on my bike. Most times I have at least 3 in mind that don't involve me sliding down the road on my rear.
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Post by Cookees on Jul 30, 2008 20:28:22 GMT -5
Just the left one.... ;D ;D ;D
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Post by rsperko on Aug 1, 2008 13:56:09 GMT -5
That picture looks a little like my shoulder right now after laying it down. I did not intend to lay it down, but there was no time to stop and swerving resulted in going down. I have 12 screws and a plate in there now.
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Post by Cookees on Aug 1, 2008 20:42:34 GMT -5
Okay...you got me beat...just seven screws, titanium plate...BUT over 80 stitches!!
But you definitely deserve a bone on that one!
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Post by Aerostudent on Aug 2, 2008 2:29:26 GMT -5
cookies, you get a bone for that, I will try to get all y'all others too later (rsperko and gusset), but I may forget. Wow, I think I speak hick now. I guess I should. Hick runs it the family and I's proud uv it!!!
Aero
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Post by josetann on Aug 2, 2008 16:16:03 GMT -5
I've had two wrecks so far. First one was going about 30mph on a scooter when I was about 9-10. Dead of winter, had coveralls on, it tore right through them and got part of my pants I had on underneath. I think I had gloves on, but don't remember any damage to them or the top part of the coveralls. I did break my right arm, but that was from the impact not from dragging.
Second one was going a bit faster, probably over 55, and was on a motorcycle (I think it was a Nighthawk). Was 15 at the time. It was during summer so I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Once again my legs took the brunt of the abuse, but with no protection. Arms came out looking fine (though I broke my left arm this time).
Basically if you're going to be stupid like me in summertime, at least wear jeans. They're better than absolutely nothing at all (better than shorts I mean, I hope no one's going commando). After getting a helmet and gloves, I'd worry most about my legs. Then I might try some type of jacket. I think my arms didn't get scraped up too bad simply because I didn't let go of the handlebars during the crash, just keep hold of the scooter/cycle and keep your legs in, that'll help a lot.
Edit: I should add that in both wrecks the scooter/cycle was laid down, so my comments were geared with that in mind. Hopefully with the added experience I have now, it won't happen again.
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Post by dean on Aug 3, 2008 15:54:58 GMT -5
I was thinking that sliding into the car that just slammed on its breaks is better than hitting it head on (even while breaking) and flying off your bike! Gusset and Aero are correct. Do not lay down the bike. I will add that denim disappears in 0.4 seconds at 30 mph
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Post by WarrenS on Aug 3, 2008 20:01:37 GMT -5
The only ones that I know of who lay bikes down on purpose are stunt riders in movies.
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Post by amizener on Aug 4, 2008 20:16:13 GMT -5
The only time I can think it would be good to lay the bike down would be if staying on it would toss you over a cliff, overpass, or into some other brand of long drop. Or if you're being shot at. My mom has a foot-and-a-half long scar on her leg from when she had to lay her bike down. The alternative was continue on the bike into the crossfire.
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Post by dean on Aug 5, 2008 14:32:56 GMT -5
The only time I can think it would be good to lay the bike down would be if staying on it would toss you over a cliff, overpass, or into some other brand of long drop. Or if you're being shot at. My mom has a foot-and-a-half long scar on her leg from when she had to lay her bike down. The alternative was continue on the bike into the crossfire. If she didn't lay down the bike her scar would be a lot smaller.
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