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Post by Pony66 on Nov 25, 2011 13:43:11 GMT -5
It still takes the horses to push it up the mountain and down the flats. OD of scooter wheels is so minumal that it'll not make at most 1 mph difference if even that much. So lets also throw in harder versus softer tires, ridng on cold or hot asphalt or even concrete all varibles but not enough to make up the difference between 40 to 50 MPH and even you know that. The HP on the dyno is rated at perfect controlled conditions but not what you drive on. The tire on the Puma is a 3.50-10 which means it's OD in length is about 31.41 inches. Now the speed of the scooter will be deteremined by the back wheel's OD and if the tire is worn then that reduces the speed and the front tire calculates the odometer as that's where the cable hooks up and that OD will be different too. All of this is very minor on a scooter and I've bought tires from about 4 different brands and they very less than 0.5% again not enough to make up a huge MPH difference either way. Lets even add 1 hp to the puma, at stock with 10" tires and weight of a total of 353lbs it's not feasiable or probable. Since you want to be so precise then lets also add a full tank of gas and engine oil which adds how much extra weight that the actual HP of this scooter has to haul to achieve 50 MPH? How much air in the tires? Actually aired up to specs or do we ignore the rating of the tire and air it up hard as a rock to go faster? is it enough to achieve 50 MPH? Let's get off the dyno, out of the flat salt flats and consider the fact he mentioned the area he was riding in which to me reperesented his everyday normal enviroment. That brings the possibility of 50 MPH even down as we all know this is not the perfect riding situation to achieve the very fastest speed that can be obtained. Im just saying there are variables and manufacture specs are not real. You don't know the HP of his scooter. It may not even be 50cc. What if the specs say its a 50ccc and its really a 63cc? We have not been on his scooter. I don't think it can do 50mph, but I'm not so full of myself to say its impossible. You are wrong about the speed difference between tires. Air pressure and OD are huge factors by themselves. Either air pressure or a 1/2" wider tire can change your MPH by 5mph easily. You dont know the OD of anyone's tire because you dont know the width of the wheel. I respect your opinion but there are too many variables to go calling someone a liar. Some scooters are lighter, lower, various carbs and jets, roller weights, torque springs, and importantly final gear ratios. Nobody knows all these specs for every scooter out there. There are many factories, importers and dealers that could easily change something.
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Post by edfr on Nov 25, 2011 13:56:06 GMT -5
Well lets all be realistic here for a change. Do any of you agree with the following NOW KEEP this in mind we are NOT TALKING ABOUT RACING ENGINES that can be built to produce a lot of horsepower UP to a certain point with special harden metals to withstand all the stresses put on the metal parts.
I am talking about your 600+ Scooters dealers are selling. Anyone Agree or disagree with these numbers? We are talking STOCK ok. 50ccs 30+ mph 150ccs 50+ mph 250ccs 60+ mph Lefty
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Post by imnts2 on Nov 25, 2011 16:43:08 GMT -5
Left. Even getting a racing engine to 50MPH with a typical automatic drive and smallish wheels/tires and a 200lb Arse with todays puke for fuel with a 2 valve head and without variable ignition or valve timeing is asking an awful lot. But I do think it is useless to argue the point. I am reminded of the sailboat captain harrassing the lft bridge tender and finally the tender's comment "if you want to go fast, you need a different mode of transportation" methinks you want to go fast you need more than 50cc. Some places will assume you have more than 50CC if you do go 35 or more and ticket you . The only reason I can think of try to get a 50CC fast 50 is that you can't get licensed for a bigger scoot or you are not willing to pay the cost. In fact it is easy to keep most 150's with Carburation and a 2 valve head from having a tip much over 50 and easy to spend a lot and work a lot an not do above 55 very often. For that matter, I don't feel safe at all on my 150 above 50 on any but the best of road surfaces. Not at all like most small motorcycles. I would also be concerned about burning a hole in the piston if I here to get enought power to get a 50 to 50 without a knock sensor and variable igniion timing. We used to think of Air cooled VW's putting out near 200 horses as having a short fuse. Honda only tries to get around 200 horses out of 2 liter with all sorts of exotic engine controls and enhancement. A very clean exhaust, variable valve timeing, 4 valve heads, variable ignition timing. That is all of 10CC per horse. Trying to get over that from a 50cc 2 valve head without all the other exotic carefully engineered and manufacoured stuff with a backyard mechanic and wrenching- not even knowing how to use a degree wheel. Come on - time to forget it. Cheers Lefty2
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Post by Fokus on Nov 25, 2011 17:08:27 GMT -5
The wheel being 10" is not what to consider yes but I have 350-10 tires too so I measured the OD of the tire also with it inflated to the tires rated psi at 32 and it measured 16.875"
Now I don't know what's the exact HP of this Puma but I can read that it's only a little over 3 HP at 7k in rpm and even if you can wind it to 8k it's still not going to hit 5 HP and the "only" way to have an idea of it's HP is to read the "makers" spec sheet. This was not a dealer's inflated specs to sell it but rather the maker themselves.
Now on over size tires and air pressure I'll go one farther, I run a larger tire on my 250's ...... and I run them at about 5lbs more on air pressure and an added 5 MPH, didn't and won't happen. Got a good 2 MPH. Reason is the rear tire is wider, more tread on the ground more engine drag.
You're forgetting also on the 250's I have 16 horses and with the variator adjustments can get more out of a bigger tire but on this little underated 50cc engine bigger will only bog it.
Now since you want to think that airing up a 10" tire can create another 1/2" in OD I just went out and acurately measured the same 10" tire at a pressure of 32psi, the outside temp is 65F and then I meansured it at 45psi and gained a whopping .0125" for a total of 16.8875" and yes I have a caliper setup that can measure that accurate.
Now I'm not basing this on a spec sheet or what others say but by doing this on a typical GY-6 Chinese scooter sitting in my garage, no guessing here. The makers of these scooters all have some varibles especially with the better quality scooters but we know this scooter is made by Znen "another" Chinese scooter maker. Are they better? Don't know?
Yes this scooter could be 63cc but do you really believe this? We all know that for the most part makers say this much when in fact most of the time it's less so it's just as easy to say the specs at 3 Hp and 49cc is actually less and 40cc. Guessing goes both ways and with the Chinese you most always get less that's why you can buy one for less than $500.
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Post by Pony66 on Nov 25, 2011 17:45:30 GMT -5
Yes this scooter could be 63cc but do you really believe this? We all know that for the most part makers say this much when in fact most of the time it's less so it's just as easy to say the specs at 3 Hp and 49cc is actually less and 40cc. Guessing goes both ways and with the Chinese you most always get less that's why you can buy one for less than $500. That's conjecture and turns out to be completly false. Vehicle manufactures, including those in China, do NOT overrate their engines. Actually manuracturers reserve the right to substitute a more powerful engine at any time. FACT: I have one in the garage, I have posted pics, its a 1P39QMB but data sheet says 50cc. Right there the specs are WRONG. I dont have a 39mm piston. Cut and paste specs do NOT apply to EVERY scooter. I simply dont know Hanks' scooter well enough to say he is a liar and trying to decieve everyone. I would rather believe a friend than loose one thinking there must be no exception to my beliefs.
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Post by Fokus on Nov 25, 2011 21:34:31 GMT -5
Didn't say vehicles, I said Chinese scooters and the dealers that sell them especially online ones at times even rate them higher, after all if it is under 50cc it'll meet that classifiaction in most places but you can post what you want on a website spec sheet. Mainpeace pointed out as I did that the specs are all over the place on these scooters. I've seen my 250's rated at 24 HP there's no way they are by displacement and bore. The linhai 300cc has a piston sized at 72mm and all know it's actually 275cc and even with a BBK with a 75mm piston it only hits at 290cc. So just as much as people say it's rated at a certain higher HP and possible higher cc's like you think it could be it could just as well be actually lower. I only said that at the specs that are probably in the actual range of what they list with the scooters bore and such it's not a a higher HP. Some here talk about over 5 HP on a 50cc scooter? I even found a difference in the Kymco Yup50 that the gentleman listed on his site at over 5 HP when the manual printed by the maker listed it at just over 4. To say they don't overate them or underate them tells me you don't know the Chinese very well! LOL
The Puma people list this model of scooter at just over 3 HP at 7k in RPM and most people that know this engine know that is a reasonable rating again by it's bore and displacement.
It's also one of the reasons you see people talking about being angry at being led to believe they have a more powerful scooter that will do such and such and when they sit on it and open it up then voice their displeasure on finding out it won't perform at what they were told. It happens everyday. Then add to the discomfort if they hear or read about someone else saying their scooter will go a lot faster than the rated specs says it will go.
Ever wonder why the Chinese don't correct the speedodometers? Some people just feel better if they see 50 MPH on a scooter even if they know it's not so! LOL
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Post by edfr on Nov 25, 2011 22:06:02 GMT -5
Here are the specs on those engines: Lefty
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Post by warriorboxerdog on Nov 26, 2011 8:24:47 GMT -5
I think you could get a 50 2t to 50mph! You should be able to do it with a molossi variator, cluch spring, 19mm carb, tuned pipe with expantion chamber, the correct sliders, and long as your weight is like 160ibs and its not windy out!
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Post by Fokus on Nov 26, 2011 12:23:53 GMT -5
I'm sure you could with all of that but they were refering to a stock 4T.
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Post by geo49 on Nov 26, 2011 15:37:06 GMT -5
You can't go by Chinese specs. or owners manuals. The owners manual seems to be more of a general description and not to spec. My manual says I have 2.57 HP @ 9000 RPM and a max speed of 60 MPH. 2.57 HP sounds about right but 60 MPH out of a 50cc scooter is a little far fetched. I don't know if Hanks scooter will do 50 MPH. I do think he's a heck of a nice guy and tries his best to help others. Also, his scooter is not a $ 500.00 cheepo off the internet. I bought my scooter from the same place he bought his and they only sell scooters of good quality.
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Post by moore716 on Nov 26, 2011 17:03:23 GMT -5
never here to argue with anything I will add a few things to stir the pot as well LOL. When I got my Baccio it would top out at a speedo indicated 42 mph. This whas right where I was told it would be. I weigh 215 and carry all my gym supplies in a backpack I wear that adds another 40# I would say. I added a pipe and an open element filter and real rich jetting and the b ike would do 50(speedo indicated) on long flat roads. Now I am figureing the speedo is optomistic by 2-3 mph. I do know that in a 35 mph section I can pass cars that are doing the speedlimit. On a long downgrade I have buried the speedo I would say 55mph. I had my wife follow me once in her car and she said I was doing 57 mph then she started screaming at me for being an idiot and saying I look like a damn shriner riding that thing. Anyway I was real rich and fouling plugs alot then so after some changes in the jetting and back to the stock airbox the scoot will still hit 50 on the same roads it used to bury the speedo. Actual speed IDK. I would say that this thing will do 45 at th least right now on a long flat stretch. Hills or grades do kill the power though.
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Post by Fokus on Nov 26, 2011 20:20:32 GMT -5
You can't go by Chinese specs. or owners manuals. The owners manual seems to be more of a general description and not to spec. My manual says I have 2.57 HP @ 9000 RPM and a max speed of 60 MPH. 2.57 HP sounds about right but 60 MPH out of a 50cc scooter is a little far fetched. I don't know if Hanks scooter will do 50 MPH. I do think he's a heck of a nice guy and tries his best to help others. Also, his scooter is not a $ 500.00 cheepo off the internet. I bought my scooter from the same place he bought his and they only sell scooters of good quality. Wherever you bought it it's Chinese made by Znen; www.pumacycles.com/our-factory.htmlYou can buy an Angle for $999 right now; scootersplusct.com/homeOn sale here at $1099 and please dis-regard the top speed statement on the page ;D www.scootandsave.com/an50sc.htmlLittle higher here and I've noticed something about the Angel while I think it's a nice looking scooter along with the other Pumas it seems the Angel is as we say the bottom of the barrel and the cheapest of the Pumas? www.chatt-townscooters.com/Home/new-modelsNow there is nothing special looking about the scooter in any way that I can see that would help it obtain 50 MPH and again it's a nice looking little scooter, better quality, don't know? Higher priced than the cheapos yes a little. But the engine? Plain old Chinese GY-6 and even if it's better quality and yes the manuals and specs are varied but 50 MPH stock?
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Post by Fokus on Nov 26, 2011 20:29:58 GMT -5
never here to argue with anything I will add a few things to stir the pot as well LOL. When I got my Baccio it would top out at a speedo indicated 42 mph. This whas right where I was told it would be. I weigh 215 and carry all my gym supplies in a backpack I wear that adds another 40# I would say. I added a pipe and an open element filter and real rich jetting and the b ike would do 50(speedo indicated) on long flat roads. Now I am figureing the speedo is optomistic by 2-3 mph. I do know that in a 35 mph section I can pass cars that are doing the speedlimit. On a long downgrade I have buried the speedo I would say 55mph. I had my wife follow me once in her car and she said I was doing 57 mph then she started screaming at me for being an idiot and saying I look like a damn shriner riding that thing. Anyway I was real rich and fouling plugs alot then so after some changes in the jetting and back to the stock airbox the scoot will still hit 50 on the same roads it used to bury the speedo. Actual speed IDK. I would say that this thing will do 45 at th least right now on a long flat stretch. Hills or grades do kill the power though. optomistic by 2-3 mph.That's very optomistic, most people will tell you that speedos on Chinese scooters are off as much as 10 MPH and on the average the faster one goes the less accurate the reading. Again we are talking about a stock Puma Angel scooter. It just did occur to me to look as I never gave it any thought until now but the speedo on my 50cc tops out at 50 MPH but I've never seen it that high.
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Post by edfr on Nov 26, 2011 21:16:45 GMT -5
Are the speedos on them in KM/H or MPH? Yes some are even off more than 10mph, the speedos are very optimistic don't know why they cannot calibrate them at least close to actual speed. There are two ways they could the Gear by the wheel and the gears in the speedo itself. Lefty
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Post by TERRA NUVO on Nov 26, 2011 21:47:27 GMT -5
REST IN PEACE inuyasha another brother/victim falls to those who hate self esteem, artistic prose and class.
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Post by smokiestover on Nov 27, 2011 1:31:53 GMT -5
With my 80cc Honda, I accidently hit 48 MPH indicated (45-46 MPH) in about 500 feet from a dead stop. That was with a 40+ MPH tailwind.
Flat grade and no wind it toped out at 45 MPH indicated and 43 MPH per radar sign. Had about 100 miles on a new rear tire and belt...front tire was like new.
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Post by Fokus on Nov 27, 2011 2:50:26 GMT -5
Now that's a tail wind! ;D
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Post by geo49 on Nov 27, 2011 15:59:11 GMT -5
My speedo tops at 50 mph also, and have gotten to 48 mph on flat roads. I dont know how much its off by actual mph but it is my guide line. When I first bought my scooter It did around 40 mph. I did some mods and now I get 48 mph. That is scooter speedo. I ride the scoot and use the scoots speedo. Thats what its there for. The best thing you can do is use the same device for measuring your speed. Start stock add some mods and check your speed, then do more mods and check your speed. Will you ever reach an actual 50 mph? I dont know, I didn't, Hank says he did. You can mod till your happy with your results.
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Post by moore716 on Nov 27, 2011 16:14:44 GMT -5
i think its very possible tbh. like I said my wife followed me and she said I was doing 57 on a LONG shallow down grade. its a 50 mph zone that goes right by the cop shop and I regularly pass cars there.
I also wanted to ad that my bike is in fact a 2t
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Post by Fokus on Nov 27, 2011 16:31:08 GMT -5
I also wanted to ad that my bike is in fact a 2tIt does make a difference.
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Post by silverfox96 on Nov 29, 2011 13:13:48 GMT -5
I've been following threads on her for a while now and really need some clarification on a couple of terms, namely; 2t and 4t. In my old slow mind I'm thinking that the 2t is a two stroke engine and a 4t is a 4 stroke. Am I wrong? Please correct me so I actually know and understand what is being spoken of. Thanks to whoever clues me in on this.
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Post by 50dude on Nov 29, 2011 13:32:51 GMT -5
Yes 4t is 4 stroke and 2t is 2 stroke
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