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Post by algears on Nov 24, 2011 8:47:35 GMT -5
Inuyasha- don't leave the forum, you have always Helped me with every single question I've had, and you're a valuable part of this place. Did anyone notice what Mechaniczman said, or were you too caught up in brown-nosing lefty? You obviously don't understand the term "brown nosing" if you think that's what Hank was doing. Apologies: I misunderstood - you were talking about "anyone" else that posted - not Hank himself.
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Post by Fokus on Nov 24, 2011 8:56:39 GMT -5
Own a 50cc and done the following; Honed and polished the intake manifold to match the carb at 24mm Upjetting by drilling the jet Sliders
Did this because it was cheap and not for max speed although it helped but for more pulling torque for riding in the hills. Son rides the scooter, he weighs 125lbs and it's displacement is 49.7cc.
I've rode the scooter a lot to just go to the store or down the road to the mailbox, I weigh 250lbs and not even on a good day will it do 50 MPH, it's not happening even with my 125lb son.
Changing the weights will have a very minimal effect either way especially on a 50cc. Go heavier gain maybe 2 MPH on flat ground, lighter will hold RPM's on the hills but lose top end. Changing the gears for top end waste of time, got to have the HP to pull them. lower ratios for racing and even then BBK a must.
So talk all you want there are lawn mowers with more HP and geared right they could acheive it, I own a 25hp one myself but a scooter at 50cc doing 50 MPH?
Take note;
new carbureted engine well tuned: 1 x HP per each 25 cc Fuel injected: 1 x HP per each 22 cc
Notes: •Most engines are tuned down to a lower HP for better engine life
So someone mentioned a stock 50cc at 5hp? Don't think so.
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Post by bigkahuna427 on Nov 24, 2011 9:36:57 GMT -5
This is a photo of the variator pulley on a Kymco Yup 50 that I am working on. This scoot has the SF10A engine. I have read online (so it must be true ) that these are designed to do 50 but are restricticted by the variator boss which has a large shoulder on it instead of the relatively thin washer you guys see on the GY6. My guess is that this substantially changes the ratio in the transmission and perhaps the people with experience with these are correct. I do have my doubts however that a 50cc scoot can develop enough torque to overcome drag and wind resistance. Although it is very rough it is probably the highest quality scoot of the 4 I own at this point. It does have 12 inch wheels and I think I would be scared to death to be on a 10 inch wheeler at 50. Here are some specs that show 5.9HP out of 50cc engine... www.bikez.com/motorcycles/kymco_yup_50_2005.phpI would also like to say that in many years of being a gear head people always seem to focus on engine performance and not consider gearing. I used to see guys at the drags all the time with tons of money spent on horsepower but the cars were dogs and could not get off the line due to gearing that was for the highway. Likewise here I see people focus on BBK and performance mods looking to gain speed. Seems to me that once you have increased torque you should be able to get taller on the gearing for improved speed. I have seen little mention of this on any of these scooter forums.... Attachments:
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Post by Pony66 on Nov 24, 2011 10:54:43 GMT -5
Guys, please take a breath and count to ten. Hank is not a liar. He believes his posts to be true. He may be right or wrong but he is not a liar. Lefty, you are one of the most knowledgable persons on this site. I believe you to be a wealth of information. I know your a guy that "calls it like he sees it." I do agree with you, however I humbly ask you to "ease up" a bit. I have 4 GY6 at the moment. Every one is different. There are larger and smaller frames, steel and aluminum wheels, different size tires. We all live in different locations and weather changes daily. The Chinese do a remarkable job of making a similar GY6 but remember they can be a little different. So "individual results may varry" Lastly, dont give up the power to be incorrect. There is no shame and quite the opposite in having some flexibility in your beliefs.
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Post by bullet on Nov 24, 2011 11:12:34 GMT -5
I used to get 47 mph out of a stock early 60's 50cc 3 speed auto clutch Honda Cub. I know because I got caught doing it and paid the price. I was only 14 years old at the time. My friends with small motorcycles would get 50-55 mph out of the sport model 50's 55's and 65's. All Hondas. IMO a 50cc scooter with minor mods can hit 50 mph if the mods are done right and complement each other. There are many posts about, added a bbk and now its slower. IMO minor mods that work together are better than any bbk alone.
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Post by Pony66 on Nov 24, 2011 11:16:05 GMT -5
IMO minor mods that work together are better than any bbk alone. I think thats a good point. Bracket racers and autocrosses all over the place would agree with that. Fine tuning is a big business now days.
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Post by lbo on Nov 24, 2011 11:25:10 GMT -5
This scoot has the SF10A engine. I do have my doubts however that a 50cc scoot can develop enough torque to overcome drag and wind resistance. I agree on both fronts. I have the SF10A engine as well and have found it to be incredably reliable and build like a tank. Mine was restricted with the washer on the speed boss, once replaced with a smooth one I gained an addition 7 or 8 mph. Once I removed the stock exhaust and got a tuned expansion chamber pipe I gained another 7 or 8 MPH. The exhaust provided the greatest increase but then again it's a 2 stroke so it only makes sense to allow it to breath and resonate back pressure properly. The variator swap to one with a bigger face and a more agressive ramp angle helped tweak out a couple more MPH. Not all engines are built the same and not all engines perform equally, obviously. Just because one scooter can doesn't mean all can, just because one can't doesn't mean none can. Some engines perform better then others. Wind is the biggest obsticle to overcome but to say it's not possible to hit 50MPH without a BBK is a farce. Really depends on the engine........... I got close to 50 and could easily get well over 40 MPH quickly. Fwiw 50MPH on my speedo is actually ~42/43MPH. The LC versions pump out more HP and can acheive 50 easily. As mentioned once the major restrictions are removed it's all about tuning the transmission for minor tweeks. Now with the BBK I noticed the CDI was restricted, couldn't tell before hand. With modifications to the intake manifold and airbox, new carb I am able to get close to 60MPH and do so much quicker......... taller gears and it can be acheived but mid 50MPH is plenty fast for me.
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Post by gregw on Nov 24, 2011 13:54:54 GMT -5
I seen Hanks video along the beachfront. Not hilly, certainly well into his final drive and rpm increasing. Maybe he's doing a superman on it, but he's well over 40mph and quite possibly touching 50. I am surprised though.
And yes, with a few components and doing a superman, I think 50mph on a 4t 50cc is possible But who really wants to do a superman to attain prolonged top speed, just get a BBK. There's no replacement for displacement, ei; bigger=faster. If I do a superman, I run the risk of over-reving and snapping something...
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Post by 50dude on Nov 24, 2011 13:55:24 GMT -5
1hp per 25cc is BS, standard 125cc 4 stroke bikes over here make 12hp stock, and can be tuned to 16hp.
Therefore a 50cc could easily make 5hp. Also, I have friends with 2 stroke 50cc, not bbk, that have had their engines dynod at 19hp. Anyone in to motocross will tell you that 2 strokes roughly make twice the power, hence why 250 4 strokes race 125 2 strokes.
I really don't see a problem with a 50cc 4 stroke making 5hp.
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Post by gregw on Nov 24, 2011 14:03:53 GMT -5
I really don't see a problem with a 50cc 4 stroke making 5hp. Ditto. A honda minibike 4t 50cc will produce around 5hp.
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Post by larry001964 on Nov 24, 2011 16:48:41 GMT -5
From the gear ratio's ive seen, I find 50 mph on a 50 cc hard for most... Perhaps tortoise is right the bigger tires may help, but honestly if one did attain 50 mph that little engine would just be screaming in pain from excessive rpms.. I don't believe it would last long..
The drive face on my variator is 39 mm it's just about as large as one can go without my drive belt scraping the starter bendix casting's in my cvt, my finial drive and clutch pulley mm were stock at 72cc. If one adds up the rpm's needed to drive my rear tire to 50 mph it comes to 9120 my tire size is a 10 inch, and the rpms needed only drop 250 rpms per inch more of diameter of tire. I can't see any engine lasting long running like that. You can change your final drive gear ratios. But if you do you also need more torque to push it. Hence a bbk kit..
So asking is it possible ehhhhh maybe but why would you want to do that to your engine..
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Post by 50dude on Nov 24, 2011 17:42:29 GMT -5
Hmm, I have 12's, would 8620rpm be bait mire bearable?
To be honest, I may go for a bbk. The purpose of this thread was to the question, not prove a point. On that basis I have no problem buying a bbk.
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Post by larry001964 on Nov 24, 2011 18:09:38 GMT -5
Hmm, I have 12's, would 8620rpm be bait mire bearable? To be honest, I may go for a bbk. The purpose of this thread was to the question, not prove a point. On that basis I have no problem buying a bbk. Honestly it's a good question, many here ( including myself ) after installing a bbk discovered the metal used in producing a 50 cc just is not strong enough to take the additional power a bbk produces... I think most of the time it's the rod at the crankshaft that fails. These engines were originally designed to be a 70 cc, but the Chinese producing these engines as 50 are also using cheaper methods that only withstand the power produced by 50cc... So your question is a good one.. If I were to do another bbk, for me I would just consider the crankshaft needs upgraded as well, Narku makes a heavy duty one, and that's the one i would use with any bbk 72 cc and above. The stroker you see in my signature is only because the Narku was not available at the time, the Hoca standard crankshaft did not appear any heaver than the original crankshaft. And the stroker would have to be built to withstand higher stresses.. That really is the only reason I bought it... Good luck with your project..
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Post by 50dude on Nov 24, 2011 18:14:57 GMT -5
I see what youre saying about the crank, but I really can't afford it.
I need it to be reliable, I'm hoping the 72 kit will fit the bill. I might just go for a 63 kit, but it's only a few pounds cheaper then the 72, and I'm not completely sure I'll see any difference going from 50 to 63.
Thanks very much for the help
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Post by larry001964 on Nov 24, 2011 18:47:17 GMT -5
I see what youre saying about the crank, but I really can't afford it. I need it to be reliable, I'm hoping the 72 kit will fit the bill. I might just go for a 63 kit, but it's only a few pounds cheaper then the 72, and I'm not completely sure I'll see any difference going from 50 to 63. Thanks very much for the help Well wind is your main problem in attaining speed. Here is a graph, it's for an electric bike but none the less shows how much more power is needed to overcome wind resistance, the same is true for gasoline engines... As you can see you can't just increase your rpms . It don't work that way.. You have to have more actual power, torque. Even if a 50 cc can do it for a limited time I'm sure it will be over stressed and suffer failure quickly... I saw some really fast tao tao's that hit 45 MPH, they actually gave my 72 a heck of a run for my money.. We discovered later they were secret 60's LOL, one of them ran out of oil, seized the engine and asked a good friend of mine to fix it. While apart he measured the piston.. That answered why they were so fast. Good luck Sincerely
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Post by 50dude on Nov 24, 2011 18:59:13 GMT -5
So do you think the 63 would provide enough torque? I know the 72 would, but I'm worried about reliability.
Having said that, I do have a spare crank, and would have 2 spare 50cc top ends if a 72 kit was installed and broke.
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Post by larry001964 on Nov 24, 2011 19:10:13 GMT -5
I have not seen any 63 cc fail, nor have read of any failing on scootdawg, they seem pretty fast, as i said the Tao Tao's really gave me a run for my money.. On hills and in a headwind i could take them as I had just a little bit more power than they did, even still it was hard..
Tearing down an engine is time consuming, even if you have a spare crankshaft do you really want to take the time to tear it down should it fail ? Will you have the time to do it ? Even if you have the parts and gaskets on hand.. Personally I depended on my scooter a lot, It really hurt me when it failed... So my advice is if it's a daily driver, and you depend on it, and if your not going to replace the crankshaft to a better one. I would not upgrade beyond a 63 cc..
That's me and my experience...
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Post by mike6736 on Nov 24, 2011 19:22:53 GMT -5
Yellow Reflex...Great machine
MIke
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Post by mainepeace on Nov 24, 2011 19:30:15 GMT -5
Well my boronated EFI 63 regularly hits 52 on my phone GPS. With the new DR Pulley variator and 4g sliders I just hit 52 again tonight. It's 30 degrees F and it was on a tree lined flat part protected from the wind. The speedo itself was pegged at well over 55 (estimated at 58). And the oxygen sensor was working so it definitely was working in closed loop tonight (I get more power in closed loop).
For those of you who don't know, my EFI kit comes with a ~24mm throttle body and free flow filter. Stock exhaust. Stock head (with intake ports smaller than a stock 50). Not sure what the rear gears are but they are pretty tall. 10" rims and tires. RPM was a bit over 8500 but hard to say exactly. DR Pulley variator is about 2mm wider (measured) that my stock variator. Rear clutch torque spring is fairly weak as it's easy to compress by hand. I'm sure I could figure out the ratios if I felt like it.
Greg
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Post by Fokus on Nov 24, 2011 19:39:31 GMT -5
www.kymcousa.com/owners/onroad/Sting-Yup-50-Owners-Manual.pdfEarlier the kymco Yup50 was said to have been over 5hp but the manual of the "maker" of the scooter (page 37) rates the scooter at 4.04hp at 7k rpm and the max torque (sweet spot) at 6500 rpm which is the comfortable range to run the scooter. It has 12" tires and at 6500 rpm the HP will be at the 3.5 hp range and of course this depends on rider weight, altitude, etc. It was also said stock on this scooter and just like the charts everywhere say a finely tuned "stock" engine = 25cc per Hp on the average. Ok on this standard 12hp on a stock 125cc, well got a 150cc stock scooter typical GY-6 and they must have forgot and left me out on the HP? www.roketa.com/product/2610/0/2621.shtml9.4 HP at 7500 rpm and got some 250's and both rated at 16.0 HP stock also Chinese. One needs to remember I can go find the same scooter on 10 different sites and get 10 different ratings. Mostly trust the people who have made them not the people who sell them to give more accurate specs but it's easy to take the bore size and displacement and find a online calculator that will figure it for you if you don't know how to do it the old fashion way? Lastly we all know the speedos are a joke and even if you hit 55 mph on the chinometer you are at best guessing at what speed you're going and I can personally tell you that even varies from scooter to scooter on the same exact model and make.
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Post by larry001964 on Nov 24, 2011 19:39:41 GMT -5
Well my boronated EFI 63 regularly hits 52 on my phone GPS. With the new DR Pulley variator and 4g sliders I just hit 52 again tonight. It's 30 degrees F and it was on a tree lined flat part protected from the wind. The speedo itself was pegged at well over 55 (estimated at 58). And the oxygen sensor was working so it definitely was working in closed loop tonight (I get more power in closed loop). For those of you who don't know, my EFI kit comes with a ~24mm throttle body and free flow filter. Stock exhaust. Stock head (with intake ports smaller than a stock 50). Not sure what the rear gears are but they are pretty tall. 10" rims and tires. RPM was a bit over 8500 but hard to say exactly. DR Pulley variator is about 2mm wider (measured) that my stock variator. Rear clutch torque spring is fairly weak as it's easy to compress by hand. I'm sure I could figure out the ratios if I felt like it. Greg So your variator face is about 39 mm too ? From what I've seen 37 mm is the stock size for a variator... How quickly did your EFI get to 52 ? And how well does it hold it ?
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Post by mainepeace on Nov 24, 2011 20:40:23 GMT -5
>>> I can go find the same scooter on 10 different sites and get 10 different ratings.
I will say this. The manufacturers are not always forthcoming in their published specs. I CANNOT get true factory specs for any of the Peace Sports or Roketa scooters other than what is on the company website. So if it's not there it's not available without alot of arm twisting. I'm sure many of the sites out there just copy from other sites or just makeup numbers since we have become a society of "number crunchers" who buy based on specs comparing one set of numbers to another.
All the specs I have on our website I just copied from another dealer's website. I have no clue how truly accurate they are.
>>> So your variator face is about 39 mm too ? From what I've seen 37 mm is the stock size for a variator.
37mm? That's a bit small. Look at a ruler. Do you mean 87mm? I didn't have a ruler with me, but placing them side by side the DR Pulley was about 2mm taller. It was also a bit lighter.
As for how quickly it got up to top speed, it's hard to say since I wasn't dragging from a stop. The acceleration overall is significantly more than with the stock variator as it's in the lower ratio for longer. It revs up to ~8100 (guess by the sound) when it used to only rev to 6300 on initial acceleration. The powerband for my engine is definitely in the 7700-8400 range.
The engine STAYS at the same RPM, exactly as it's supposed to, almost like it was fixed at that RPM. Perfect variator setup. It likes it in the 45 mph range, but it does go faster if I open up the throttle more. I have no idea how long it will stay at that speed as it's only been a few days and it's very windy. The engine does NOT sound like it's screaming or about to implode. It sounds really good.
Also, there is ice on the road so I was probably going faster than I should in the pitch blackness of streets with no lights. I'll see if I can go longer tomorrow and run around the island. Maybe I'll get a video from my phone but I don't want to ride one handed for any extended period of time when it could be icy.
Greg
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Post by larry001964 on Nov 24, 2011 20:59:07 GMT -5
>>> I can go find the same scooter on 10 different sites and get 10 different ratings. I will say this. The manufacturers are not always forthcoming in their published specs. I CANNOT get true factory specs for any of the Peace Sports or Roketa scooters other than what is on the company website. So if it's not there it's not available without alot of arm twisting. I'm sure many of the sites out there just copy from other sites or just makeup numbers since we have become a society of "number crunchers" who buy based on specs comparing one set of numbers to another. All the specs I have on our website I just copied from another dealer's website. I have no clue how truly accurate they are. >>> So your variator face is about 39 mm too ? From what I've seen 37 mm is the stock size for a variator. 37mm? That's a bit small. Look at a ruler. Do you mean 87mm? I didn't have a ruler with me, but placing them side by side the DR Pulley was about 2mm taller. It was also a bit lighter. As for how quickly it got up to top speed, it's hard to say since I wasn't dragging from a stop. The acceleration overall is significantly more than with the stock variator as it's in the lower ratio for longer. It revs up to ~8100 (guess by the sound) when it used to only rev to 6300 on initial acceleration. The powerband for my engine is definitely in the 7700-8400 range. The engine STAYS at the same RPM, exactly as it's supposed to, almost like it was fixed at that RPM. Perfect variator setup. It likes it in the 45 mph range, but it does go faster if I open up the throttle more. I have no idea how long it will stay at that speed as it's only been a few days and it's very windy. The engine does NOT sound like it's screaming or about to implode. It sounds really good. Also, there is ice on the road so I was probably going faster than I should in the pitch blackness of streets with no lights. I'll see if I can go longer tomorrow and run around the island. Maybe I'll get a video from my phone but I don't want to ride one handed for any extended period of time when it could be icy. Greg OOps yep I stand corrected, sorry for that the standard is 87 mm the NCY is 89mm oops... Thanks for correction :-) If your getting 52 mph with your EFI, and its a 63 with a 2mm bigger Variator then I think it may be possible for him to get 50 mph with just a modest upgrade in cc and a similar variator..
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Post by Fokus on Nov 25, 2011 3:03:10 GMT -5
Specs listed by Pumacycles on the 50cc Puma Angel; www.pumacycles.com/50CC--Angel.htmlTake note of 3.128HP. Also take note of top speed and that it does depend on all the things we know as in rider weight and conditions. With a large person on this scooter there will be a lot of wind drag and the 10" tires are on this scooter because of it's lack of HP.
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Post by Pony66 on Nov 25, 2011 11:30:14 GMT -5
Manufacturer specs have little to do with actual output of the engine. Specs are simply for import regulations. One example is the fact some of us have "secret 63s" but the specs say it is a 49cc. One 10" tire is not the same rolling circumference as another. Any real engine builder knows one engine built to spec as another does not equal the same output. Most perform similar, but every now and then you "get a real good one"
Your 50cc scooter is not the same as my 50cc scooter. Just because you think your "metal" is low quality does not mean mine is. One's anecdotal experiences do not make a universal rule.
I have spent many summers on the Bonneville salt flats. Many people go out there to bust stories about what a bike or vehicle can do. One can quote specs and aerodynamics all they want. Get out there and try, the truth is on the salt, not someones web postings.
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Post by Fokus on Nov 25, 2011 11:42:39 GMT -5
I have and ride in the flats, mountains, 10F weather, 105F weather, know all the specs and engines of these well. Will agree with they are all different but as far as the output of the engine and bore, displacement one has to start somewhere in knowing what to expect the engine to do, can always tear it down and see too. But the very scooter that got all of this "oh it will fly like a rocket BS" is rated at a max of around 4hp by the very people that built it.
I'm sure on that mustang you got pictured if you have that car you know the engine specs and with anything you have done can know what it'll do but even with it it'll not perform the same at 5k in altitude as it will at 1 k in altitude but by knowing the specs you have a idea of what it'll do by the HP it's got and if someone comes up with something off the wall you'll question it.
Doesn't take a salt flat or mountain or an exact wheel OD to figure out what the capabilities of 4hp is with the weight factor at around 350lbs. Now if you need to go to the flat salt flats to prove it's max output other than just everyday riding then go fo it. The 50cc I own with the minor improvements is IMO compared to other better quality 50cc scooters is a little above average and it'll on a good day with my son's 125lbs do about 39 to 40 mph and that's stretching it. It's perfectly tuned and we use non-ethanol good gas so I'm being a little over conservative.
Specs are all over the place just like on the 250 with the linhais, it's a known fact they have 3 piston sizes and don't dare order rings until you tear it apart and see what's there. Again I've got 4 scooters 50cc and up, don't need to be told about variations but don't need to find a flat salt pit to know what they'll do either.
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Post by Pony66 on Nov 25, 2011 12:09:11 GMT -5
But the very scooter that got all of this "oh it will fly like a rocket BS" is rated at a max of around 4hp by the very people that built it. Doesn't take a salt flat or mountain or an exact wheel OD to figure out what the capabilities of 4hp is with the weight factor at around 350lbs. "Rated power" means nothing unless your a customs agent. If you think the exact Tire OD has nothing to do with actuall top speed, Fine. I respect your opinion but disagree. No reason to beat a dead horse. Yes my Mustang was rated at 240HP but when put on a dyno it pulled 300HP. This is very common with vehicle manufactures. They UNDERRATE their engines' power to meet certain criteria. This is extreamly common in the import industry as well. Rated Horsepower is NOT actuall horsepower.
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Post by edfr on Nov 25, 2011 13:01:06 GMT -5
Well for those that are not old hotrodders, the rated horsepower the manufactuers always put on their spec sheets is NOT at the Rear Wheels Horsepower. So if they say 200 horsepower the real usuable horsepower at the rear wheels is much LOWER than that. They Dyno them in controlled enviroment NOT in a car but on a Stand. I have personnaly took a tour and seen how they do it, heck they are in a protective booth with bullet prove glass in case the sucker explodes(HAHA). For a 200 hp you can expect about 160 at the rear wheels.
Just recently within a few years they changed the way they rate them and the ratings are more realistic but they are still off a little but more to the truth of the usuable hp. Lefty
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Post by Pony66 on Nov 25, 2011 13:16:54 GMT -5
They Dyno them in controlled enviroment NOT in a car but on a Stand. I have personnaly took a tour and seen how they do it, heck they are in a protective booth with bullet prove glass in case the sucker explodes(HAHA). Lefty I would not go to one that did not have a booth. I have seen cars blow up and flywheels go through walls. I have seen them brake a strap and try to launch off the dyno. Search YouTube for some great dyno explosions.
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Post by Fokus on Nov 25, 2011 13:31:46 GMT -5
It still takes the horses to push it up the mountain and down the flats. OD of scooter wheels is so minumal that it'll not make at most 1 mph difference if even that much. So lets also throw in harder versus softer tires, ridng on cold or hot asphalt or even concrete all varibles but not enough to make up the difference between 40 to 50 MPH and even you know that. The HP on the dyno is rated at perfect controlled conditions but not what you drive on.
The tire on the Puma is a 3.50-10 which means it's OD in length is about 31.41 inches. Now the speed of the scooter will be deteremined by the back wheel's OD and if the tire is worn then that reduces the speed and the front tire calculates the odometer as that's where the cable hooks up and that OD will be different too.
All of this is very minor on a scooter and I've bought tires from about 4 different brands and they very less than 0.5% again not enough to make up a huge MPH difference either way.
Lets even add 1 hp to the puma, at stock with 10" tires and weight of a total of 353lbs it's not feasiable or probable. Since you want to be so precise then lets also add a full tank of gas and engine oil which adds how much extra weight that the actual HP of this scooter has to haul to achieve 50 MPH? How much air in the tires? Actually aired up to specs or do we ignore the rating of the tire and air it up hard as a rock to go faster? is it enough to achieve 50 MPH?
Let's get off the dyno, out of the flat salt flats and consider the fact he mentioned the area he was riding in which to me reperesented his everyday normal enviroment. That brings the possibility of 50 MPH even down as we all know this is not the perfect riding situation to achieve the very fastest speed that can be obtained.
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