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Post by scottish1 on Apr 7, 2011 4:14:33 GMT -5
Made another long test run. I have the most well tuned scooter ever that runs like it's brand new, as it should, it is. Until it runs about 8 to 10 miles then it bogs down and stalls and will not accelerate. Then the longer I wait between starting it, the further I can go again without bogging down and having to stop again.
I had to rotate the mixture adjust on the carb out two whole turns to get the mix right. So as I said it now runs better than ever because all the sweet things I've been doing to it to fix it, but have only succeeded in tuning it, not fixing it.
It has a new coil, plug and cdi, all which improved performance. It has all new fuel and air lines and the carb has been adjusted. The valves are right on, after a learning curve for me they are now perfect. So to repeat myself, when this scooter runs it runs very very well.
So now it has come time again to replace some more components that can heat up and fail. Next will be the trigger pick up, and after that will be the stator. After a comment by an experienced guru dog that it wouldnt be the first time a stator has failed from overheating.. I am inclined to think that this is my next thing to try.
The scoot has not made me walk home yet, but it sure wants to. I want to commute to work with it, I NEED to commute to work on it, and it is simply not dependable yet. No matter what I have tried, and this has been several weeks of working on it pretty much every day.. this problem has not yet been resolved. I just cannot believe I have to replace the entire friggin magneto system and ignition to make sure it is not some of those components.
Could it be.. a bad regulator? Isn't that a little ecltronic component up in the front end? I am so stumped and kinda bummed but I have to keep trying.
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 7, 2011 5:47:11 GMT -5
The regulator keeps the AC and DC voltage at a certain level, to charge the battery and to keep from blowing the bulbs that work off AC (if you have any). Most of the smaller Chinese scoots will start and run normal without a battery or a regulator attached (but don't try it since you'll blow bulbs). The scoots that have a kick-starter are like this. There are a few models that have a DC fired ignition, and require a charged battery to run. When you get to the 250cc scooters or the fuel injected models, you'll find a DC ignition. Yours probably is an AC fired ignition......the CDI units are different. But since you run ok for the eight miles or so.....you have the right ignition parts. Scrappydog sells the trigger coil separately from the stator (about $13). Most other places sell the trigger coil and stator as a single unit. For test purposes you could attach and connect a different trigger coil......leave the stock trigger just hanging so it could be used over (if that's not the problem). I carry one around as a spare....should I have a problem out on the road. The trigger coil can be replaced without any special tools. If you wanted to replace the entire stator+the trigger, you'll need a special puller to get the flywheel off. Realize I'm going by the three GY6 scoots I've owned.....plus an extra 150GY6 engine I found. On all of them the trigger coil is outside the flywheel, and could be replaced relatively easily.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 7, 2011 6:25:36 GMT -5
thanks blue. I have a new trigger coming from scrappy. I'll try that before worrying about the stator. I'm glad to hear I dont need to pull the flywheel to try it. But in looking at the way my scooter is made.. hmmm it doesnt look so easy, it looks like the whole case has to crack open including areas where there is oil and coolant. omg i hope that's not the case. sigh.. will let you know.
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 7, 2011 7:03:50 GMT -5
I've never looked closely at the liquid-cooled models, with regard to the flywheel/stator. If replacing the pickup involves anything more than a few screws and removing some plastic, I'd for sure try to pin-point the problem....before a part substitution.
If you drove around your neighborhood at night till the scoot stopped.....you should be able to see if the spark plug had stopped firing. Maybe remove some plastic panels first so you could get to the plug easily.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 7, 2011 8:08:35 GMT -5
hmmm. well.. yeah even just the pickup trigger looks like a major deal to trade out so that sucks. first I am going to try a new vacuum 'petcock' under the gas tank. I have been reading that it could be that it is bad and that I am using up all the gas that is in the line, but then no more is flowing properly. I read some one else post that they had this problem along with the 'heating up' problems associated with it, and several others have said it could be that little friggin thing. jury still out.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 9, 2011 20:50:41 GMT -5
update: too rainy and cold to do a proper test ride. The young mechanic guy at the scooter shop tells me that he thinks it might be a sticking auto choke (which I now know more about than I ever wanted to know from the internet) so he said to unplug the wires from it and take a test run to test his theory. (The choke mechanism is actuated by a small heat circuit in it that melts some wax in there to extend the pin, so is proper for the auto choke to heat up a little bit).
Also I found out that the vacuum pressure for your fuel sender unit under the gas tank is actually less when you throttle higher so it could be that I still may have a petcock problem because even if there IS gas in the filter the pulses to the fuel sender unit may be weaker then and inhibit flow at the carb kind of a vapor lock effect.
I took a quick run up to the auto shop to get some more zip ties and hose clamps and the scooter has never run better at least for that very short run. I have come to learn that your connections of your vacuum and fuel lines on these scoots has to be perfect or problems happen. It's a bit annoying to get it all sorted out but....910 miles now on the odometer.
Fingers crossed. The longest stretch of no problems when I have run a test with sudden bogging down is ten miles. With the choke unwired and a fresh fuel/air ratio adjustment.... If I could run 15 -20 miles or more with no sudden traumatic bogging down, that would be great. Hopefully all these posts will help somebody down the road, or it may ultimately prove that I am the world's worst mechanic. Watching the vids of guys tearing down entire scooters is frankly horrifying, lol.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 10, 2011 0:35:35 GMT -5
did another test run out in the freezing sleet I might add. brrrr. Went about 11 miles before suddenly bogging down and having to wait and restart. The longer I wait to restart, the longer it will run again without bogging and not accelerating. I am starting to think it is not a fuel problem. If I had pressurizing the fuel sender (petcock) problems on higher rpm's I think it would have shown itself earlier on, and probably more intermittent and chronic. But this is a sudden shut down that can be recreated over and over and over again regarding the time/miles driving it.
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 10, 2011 4:06:40 GMT -5
Humm....when you unplug the choke, it stays in the retracted position, which is choked. So the symptoms stayed the same when you rode it that way.....that indicates a problem for sure. Your engine should start up normal that way, and run for a while. Eventually the thing will be way too rich. When you let it sit and cool off, it would run in this rich condition for a while.....
As I said.....you can test the choke operation on the bench. Remove it from the carb, and apply 12v+ground to the two wires. The plunger should extend a short way after a few minutes. This is what shuts off the choke circuit.
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Post by apittington on Apr 10, 2011 5:59:41 GMT -5
I accidentally recreated your problem! I'm with blue on the choke.
Like he said the choke is on by default, and the heater coil shuts it off as it heats up. If it was dead, the scoot would run till it is warm, and then run more and more rich, making it bog and die. Let it cool, and it runs till it's to rich and does again.
I recreated the problem your having on my ninja, which has a manual choke. In the rain and cold we got yesterday, my bike took a bit to warm up, so I rode off with my choke still on at 50%, and did not remember to watch my temp gauge and turn it off. About 3 miles down the road, my bike bogged down, and when I closed the throttle and pulled the clutch, it died. I pulled over, and could not restart it. Realized my choke was still on, closed it, and it started right up, problem gone.
Before you go and just replace the part, do what blue says, and check the enricher by removing it, and hooking it up to your battery and checking to see if it extends. I bet it does not.
If you search you tube for gy6 enricher, you can find a good video of what should happen when it's working right.
much cheaper, and way, way easier to fix than a pickup trigger/stator. About $9 from scrappy I think.
Adrian
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 10, 2011 20:53:26 GMT -5
Tested the autochoke on 12v and it extends just fine in a short amount of time so it seems to be working properly. Since the autochoke extends fairly quickly I am thinking that it would not have anything to do with my sudden bogging after 15 or more minutes of riding, it would show up fairly soon I would think. Obviously some component of my system is failing after about 8-11 miles of riding. But then it seems to be ok after a cool down. This is a friggin dangerous condition since it then cannot accelerate and I have to pull over immediately to get out of traffic.
In 3 tests in a row it failed at exactly 8 miles running. On one test it failed in about 4 miles and on the most recent test it failed after 11 miles. It ALWAYS fails after initially running perfect. It never stops running but bogs down and will not accelerate, and it always starts up again and runs fine depending on how long I 'cooled' it down before restarting. Even on a really cold night when the ambient temp was down about 20 degrees lower than normal here it failed at 11 miles.
The timing of it all, has me thinking that perhaps the coolant takes about this much time to get really hot. So I'm thinking the trigger pick up and or stator need that amount of time to actually get hot temperature wise. It always fails JUST as I'm thinking ok all the components should be pretty warm by now.
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Post by apittington on Apr 11, 2011 0:58:15 GMT -5
Did you happen to check the wires the choke plugs into normally are getting power? The choke works fine it sounds like, but the wiring could be bad, which would make it act just like it was not working.
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Post by TERRA NUVO on Apr 11, 2011 2:59:20 GMT -5
this is a wild thread, wish you the best man, and when you find the problem o a lot of folks will roar hurray!
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 11, 2011 6:23:36 GMT -5
a bit more on valves.. both at .003 no way jose at least for me, seemingly way too tight. too loose? you should have heard the clacking. factory spec says .05 mm intake and .1 exhaust no joke ! which of course is WAY off! as I said above are now both at .005. Maybe thinking that my scooter was an expensive paper weight and not worth a dime has made me think that perhaps my scooter is solidly built enough.. that it can run for awhile pretty good even with completely misadjusted valves! If this fixes it.. thank the LORD for scooterdawg forums. There is no way I could have got this far by 'asking around' scooter shops.
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 11, 2011 6:26:11 GMT -5
FWIW.....this difficult problem is a good example of the complication added to the diagnosis (not to mention the fix), by the liquid cooling feature of this particular scoot. Imagine how much more difficult this whole incident would be made, if the scoot also had EFI. An intermittent failure of any number of the pieces would require a "qualified" dealer (with the necessary diagnosis equipment). I could just see myself crating up a brand new scooter, to be shipped back across several states, for some minor repair (like a faulty control unit that could be replaced in five minutes, but not diagnosed by the average owner)...............rant over. A known good parts substitution is sometimes the best fix method.....but can get costly. I always try to pin-point the cause of the problem, before buying parts. A heat/time-related failure of some electrical part seems most likely......but is it caused by the engine heating up due to a coolant system issue, or is it an electrical problem only? I don't think this has been resolved yet.... Too bad the pickup and the stator are so difficult to get to.......I think handing this problem to a local repair place would be a big mistake. You'd get a big labor bill, after the place just threw a bunch of parts at it......without fixing anything (except maybe by accident)>
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 11, 2011 6:43:12 GMT -5
yo blue ! you made me feel way better cuz you big dogs are very patient with all this but check out above your post. is me posting that your original diagnosis may have been correct !
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 12, 2011 0:34:17 GMT -5
well i know this has become tedious for readers as well. Tonight I made a test run and you guessed it.. total bog down after 8 miles running, then stopping and starting all the way home as it would run for a bit and then bog down again many times. Valves seemed to be the thing last night, but it's back to the same mess today. Time to look into the trigger pick up and stator. Very disappointed today after breathing a little easier last night. Back to having an unsafe non dependable scooter again.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 13, 2011 23:52:13 GMT -5
Does anyone know how to test a DC stator with a volt meter? I would like to have a reason to go in because getting to these components in my type of scooter is major, draining oil and coolant and basically cracking open a large casing of the motor that includes the oil pump and water pump. If it tests fine maybe I could go in and just replace the trigger pick up. If I don't test the stator now, and it's NOT the trigger then I would have to crack open the case AGAIN. GAAAAA...
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 14, 2011 5:32:22 GMT -5
The thing would check ok if you do any testing while the engine is cooled off.......this intermittent electrical problem could only be diagnosed at the point/time of failure. I would think checking for a good spark at that time, would be the easiest/best method. Since you have a known-good extra coil.....you could just unplug the first coil, plug in the spare and see if it's sparking. (I'm assuming the coil is easy to reach while attached). Whatever electrical problem is possibly affecting the pickup/stator, would certainly show up at the spark-plug. You should be able to reproduce this heat-related problem while running the scoot on the center-stand in your driveway.
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Post by robb on Apr 14, 2011 11:28:29 GMT -5
Ride 4 miles out and 4 miles back and keep it hot close to home if it wont act up on the stand.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 16, 2011 0:22:15 GMT -5
Thanks guys, cept checking the plug out on the road won't work because after turning off the motor and starting again...I have spark or I wouldnt be able to drive again. And of course is no way to keep the motor running in its bogged down condition and check the spark. Thus my question about how you test a DC stator (meaning for voltage and resistance). I learned as much as I could from other forums and it seems that even if the stator does give proper readings at cold then it could still malfunction when warm, or even be a bad stator when it gives proper readings in general. So it will be traded out this weekend, no way around it. I have tried to recreate this bogged down condition on the stand by driving close to home when it's due to fail. Problem is still the same in that there is no way to test the spark while it's sitting there idling, and additionally once I shut it down and retest it.. tada spark! So that doesnt get anywhere. Except when it was in that condition I did try to change the fuel air mix but that was worthless. At this point all the big dogs and pros have no more suggestions about systems that may be failing so it's time to get going with individual components. What a nightmare, even if i am successful putting in a new stator and pick up.. it could be the resistor! that's even more expensive than a stator. With my luck I'll probably just find a short somewhere whilst trading out increasingly expensive parts. Even if it does act up on the stand, all I will really know then is the same as I know now, that something has to change to make a difference or I will not learn the reason. jury out. thanks all.
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 16, 2011 4:52:32 GMT -5
The thing about driveway testing....it's a bunch easier/safer to do the testing at home, rather than stuck out somewhere on the side of the road. One of these times that thing will fail 100%........ I'd do the spark testing using the starter....you could unplug the first coil and plug in the second coil and and spark-plug in a minute or less....well before anything cooled off. If this scoot has a good spark whenever tested, even after it just started acting up while hot.......I'd be suspecting something other than a pickup/stator problem.
What's this expensive "resistor" thing you speak of? I have a small resistor in my AC circuit, but the thing is about $7.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 17, 2011 6:15:24 GMT -5
2009 Pegasus 150 (cf moto) 4 stroke water cooled. This electrical system in this scoot is DC. The regulator rectifier for it is 69.95 I have not considered buying a new one of those yet. The stator ran me about 44.95. This scoot has a new cdi and a new coil, neither of which in installing made any difference at all regarding this scoot bogging down after coming up to w.o.t. The fuel and air flow are spotless, with clear lines I can easily see that there is plenty of fuel at the carb at any time. The valves are adjusted nicely and the carb and autochoke test nicely and seem to be working properly. If you suspect something else.. what might that be? If I was a whiz at this I would be checking the voltage and resistance of the output of the stator when it was hot and when it was cold, but no one seems to know what readings I ought to be looking for.
Currently it's being taken apart to install a new trigger pick up and stator. At this point it's all I can do to trade out parts. Techies that work on gy6 snowmobiles tell me that this type of failure is often attributed to preceeding overheating in gy6 snowmobiles and that even if a stator tests right electrically it can be a bad stator and cause this. jury still out however on my winged horse which is right now a thousand dollar paper weight.
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 17, 2011 6:51:46 GMT -5
Humm....if you're running a truly DC CDI setup, I would suppose the scoot should be able to run off battery power alone, until the voltage drops too low (a whole lot more than 8 miles from a charged/good battery). That pretty much eliminates the stator and the regulator as the problem.....since their duty is to charge the battery on a DC fired system. That leaves the pickup coil as the source of a heat-related electrical failure.......but it's very strange the scoot still shows a good spark at the time of the failure.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 17, 2011 6:55:49 GMT -5
hope you are right blue, that it is the pick up coil. i hear ya on the stator but while i'm in there i want to trade it out just because I don't want to go in there again. It's a ugly tear down for this model to get at. but maybe I will take your idea regardless, and not pull the flywheel and stator this time in. then at least we will know it is the trigger pick up. fingers crossed.
I'm still losing my marbles on this idea of getting spark. All I have to do is start the motor again and vrooom ! But if I do that right away it will bog down within 100 feet again. gaaa jury out. maybe we are on the verge of a verdict.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 17, 2011 11:19:12 GMT -5
ok for those of you who have been watching this. I took apart the case to get to the stator and trigger pick up. My motor, late 2008 mfg but they call my scoot a 2009, is configured in such a way where I don't have to take off the flywheel to get to the stator and the pick up. Inside the flywheel ring cup there was some oil and I was worried about that but I have since learned that it's ok if some oil gets on the stator but it had me worried at first. What a mess to get in there. There was some fibrous like cloth gunk all over the oil screen that may have been inhibiting flow. Where is THAT coming from? GAAAAA
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 19, 2011 0:07:11 GMT -5
Hopefully someone is still listening here. As you know I have been searching like crazy to see if I can spot a physical reason for my scooter bogging down and overheating at warm operating temperature. I may have inadvertently stumbled onto the reason by cracking open the rather substantial casing surrounding the right side of my motor. As you can see in my most recent post I was curious as to what the material was that was in my oil filter. My filter was VERY gunked up and I have determined that the material is excess gasket material (that has come from that casing) that was out of alignment some AND some gasket material from that gasket being too big on the inside of the case in many places. My filter screen was VERY gunked up.. now realizing that the material on it is NOT permeable to oil I realize now this...
My motor was probably STARVED for oil !!!! OMG !!!! That INDEED would cause overheating because of the excess friction on the piston rings in the cylinder !!! AND it may have been THAT very friction that caused my motor to fail, and now I realize.. almost seize up. So in waiting for a few minutes to start up again, oil may have flowed enough to splash up into the main components. The good news is that mayyyyyybe this physical abnormality that I have found was caught in time. However unfortunately, my scooter began running like crap the day before I shut it down to open the case to get to the trigger pick up and the stator.
So.. this may be it! What do you think? I really should have taken a pic of how bad my oil filter screen was. Oil could not flow! This leads me to the conclusion so far, if this is the smoking gun, that a much more frequent oil change than factory recommended may have fixed my scooter many weeks ago. Truly I think this may be the reason why my scooter has had such problems which normal troubleshooting was not able to address.
So now my question becomes this: What damage has possibly been done to my piston rings and cylinder walls.. and what is the worst case scenario as to what kind of 'kit' I should buy to fix it if my scooter runs horrible and starts to puke really bad once I get it back together? Best case scenario is that I caught it in time and things will be kinda ok. But I fear that repeated attempts to muscle my scooter over the hump of failing and then trying to fiddle with it and run it more may have done some damage.
This is the first major abnormality that I have stumbled upon that is some physical evidence. What do you think guys? Is this it? The more I think about it.. how the overheating was a big part of this.. the more I think this may be it. Weigh in ! thanks guys
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Post by apittington on Apr 19, 2011 1:15:15 GMT -5
I really hope that this is the problem. That gasket material is one of the reasons for changing the oil so often during break in.
As for damage, I would guess you would see excessive blow by, and burn oil if friction had damaged the rings.
I really hope this fixes it up, I have been getting ready to offer you a second set of eyes, and loan you my extra scoot. But I will be very pleased if you get this fixed.
Adrian
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 19, 2011 4:28:50 GMT -5
Well I have ridden/heard/diagnosed a number of cycle engines that had oil-circulation issues. The symptoms are nothing like what you have reported. There normally is nothing time/distance related to the symptoms. You'd start to hear strange noises (scraping, rattling, knocking, etc), which would remain there at all times.
While that crap you saw in the strainer is not good, and hopefully caused no other damage, I don't think it is the main cause of your problems.
Unless your engine has a low-oil or oil-pressure system that could shut down the engine in the event of an oil problem, I think you're on the right track with the pickup/stator. My 2c....
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 19, 2011 6:19:57 GMT -5
you guys are awesome. stator is mounted looks good it's a 12 pole stator. waiting for gasket set and correct pick up coil, happens to be same as the pick up for the 250 model, not a standard gy6 trigger pick up. yeah has been a long road but i'm good. will keep takin it one day at a time. that cover was a ugly bear to dismount and you have to be realllly careful puttin it back in w starter gear and oil pump fork and such. has happened before thinkin i got it licked but.. the whole business end of the right side of the scoot is about to be brand new so.. jury out ! will be checking for shorts in the meantime. laterz
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 22, 2011 6:31:34 GMT -5
stator and new trigger pick up are installed. carb diaphragm has been richened one notch on the needle (because i checked my plug and i think i'm running way lean). valves have been adjusted again. scrappy sent me the wrong gasket kit so i had to make do with what i had and build in some gasket material. oil has been changed. coolant has been flushed and changed. its 4 am and i have not ridden in about a week because of parts and servicing it. in the past week i estimate i have worked on it about 25 hours. it starts and purrs real nice. havent test driven it yet. if i let a shop do all this it would have cost me a fortune. pretty soon i will find out if this bad dog bogs down like it's been doing for friggin ever. there is exactly 1000 miles on the odometer.
i'm a lot better scooter mechanic now can tear it down and put it back together pretty fast. and yes a couple of times i have blown coolant all over my driveway and yes about a quart of oil too. (i left out an oil galley on my first case mount job lol and the coolant thing was like wtf!! i had pulled a tiny hose off a thingie and suddenly i was in a pool of coolant) the ohm resistance in the new trigger and stator are about the same as the new parts, so who knows if i did any good. haven't checked voltage on em yet just got a new multimeter so now i can do that.
if this doesnt fix it, i dont know what will. fingers crossed, jury out. the biggest let down on my scoot is that all four bolts over the float casing on the carb are totally frozen, not even vice grips can get them off, so i've never even seen my jets. so next fix will probably be a new resonater regulator thingie and a new carb if only to be able to clean the jets. and will try a new auto choke although mine tests fine and when it warms up properly i can observe the idle ease down about as it operates. after that.. scooter for sale ! naa will keep trying.. gonna wipe it down and inspect and ride it tomorrow. if i blow motor fluids all over the road i'll let you know where to avoid riding. ha ! later..
p.s. and of course it has all new clear fuel lines and clear vacuum lines, there is an expanded vent hole in the gas cap, new fuel filter AND some new ghosted flames where i took off the stock side stickers. and i received the license plate for it, no more temp. if it runs great i'm going to mod the back fender to give it a more race look. on my new plate it says ROC.. i think it means.. runs on coffee.
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