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Post by scottish1 on Mar 31, 2011 0:54:44 GMT -5
jury is in on whether new fuel and filter and air lines cured my bogging down problem. guilty or not guilty?
wait for it............
NOT guilty !!! Scooter bogged down AGAIN at exact same spot on the road. I'm beginning to feel that that mile marker has ufo's or something. It hesitated again just as it did before. So I still do not have a dependable scooter. Basically it runs (with a little hesitation) 8 miles (up to normal operating temperature) and then fails, bogs down and will not accelerate and begins to overheat while running at a slower and slower speed. The scooter will not properly run again until it has been shut off for a number of minutes and then restarted where of course the cycle would be expected to repeat over again.
zip ties on all air lines, yep. no leaks. no problems there. What do you think the next component to try and trade out is? The scoot is under warranty and once I explain to them what is happening perhaps they will have an idea, but they don't stock anything and always have to orrrder stuff which is frankly dumb for a scooter shop....anyway..
I think it's time to consider that an electronic component is bad. But which one? GAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Post by Bluefront on Mar 31, 2011 5:12:39 GMT -5
I don't know how easy it is to get to your spark plug.......but you could do a road-side diagnosis by checking for spark when the engine dies. It's hard to tell in the daytime if the spark is normal, or maybe just weak. There are basically three things that I'd suspect.....the coil, the CDI unit, and the trigger pick-up coil. On my own scoot the coil and CDI are relatively easy to swap out....I carry spares along with me. The pick-up coil is harder to get to. It's on the outside of the flywheel on most of these scoots these days, and could be changed out on the road-side I suppose (I carry one of those also). Scrappy sells these things relatively cheaply.....I'd probably just buy a coil and CDI and try them out. If they didn't fix the problem, they're still good to carry around as spares. You're probably going to have problems getting any help from the place you bought the thing. They probably don't have the right parts.....and the people who answer the phones aren't usually mechanics, familiar with such problems. I wonder if you could duplicate the problem by running the scoot on the center stand till it dies.....that way you wouldn't be stuck out somewhere. Eventually you really are going to get stuck and needing a tow....or a long push home.
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 31, 2011 13:18:49 GMT -5
thanks much. ordering some parts now. you would think in phoenix arizona that some people would carry these components but I can see that even at ATV and scooter stores that talking to the parts guy is like talking to a moron when it comes to gy6 and such. yep, cdi and a coil, on order. sigh.....
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 31, 2011 17:22:46 GMT -5
don't mean to be harsh on parts guys at scooter stores because they are nice but if you could hear what they say when I ask for specific things.. very discouraging. I ordered from monstergy6.com back in Georgia that guy knew exactly what I needed. I got an upgraded coil to work a bit better with iridium plugs and an upgraded cdi that can even adjust the timing (although I really don't want that I don't race). Will be a few days. In the meantime I don't feel bad about the other work I did, I learned a lot about my scooter and I think it will run longer and better for it. So, as of now the jury is out on whether the coil and or cdi is GUILTY or NOT GUILTY of bogging down my scooter!!!!
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 31, 2011 17:30:35 GMT -5
I hope all this will help some people who are having problems as well. I just can't imagine the frustration that could happen to people unprepared to track down a problem.
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Post by tvnacman on Mar 31, 2011 18:04:44 GMT -5
have you considered a new carb ?
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Post by Bluefront on Mar 31, 2011 18:18:01 GMT -5
If you consider the symptoms......there's nothing inside a carb that could possibly act like that.
We're talking about a problem that can be duplicated, a problem that occurs after a set amount of run time, and that can be (temporarily) fixed by a cool-down period.
I'd be tempted to recheck the valve adjustments while waiting for the new parts.......
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 1, 2011 0:31:19 GMT -5
It was kind of freaky but it's true. For three times on test runs.. the scoot failed each and every time at the exact same place on the road, after 8 miles. I was thinking the same thing today.. omg what if new ignition system DOESNT fix it? I will be totally in scooter hell then. And yeah I was thinking new carb also.. but there is always the cdi igniter....the flywheel pickups... electrically speaking. Well I've got the big dogs on it lol. woo woo ! At this point you might want me to try one of my new components without the other so we know which one it is lol. Naaa, I'm putting both in when they arrive. The ignition system is all I've got to know. It's GOT to be the cdi !! yep may as well check out the valves while its sitting there wouldnt hurt. thanks guys. jury out still.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 1, 2011 0:53:09 GMT -5
but carbs can fail I think. Like if the gas starts to boil and stuff or if the carb itself gets too hot? 8 miles is a pretty good run and for sure that's about the point where you wouldn't want to touch the motor or exhaust. This has come a long way..from overheating to realizing that's a symptom caused by something else. and it has actually become a progressively worse problem. I was and will ride 50 miles each day with it and it may be a lot to ask for a scooter but that's what they are made for, to run. I prefer this way to break it in. I haven't been exceptionally hard on it, but I need to know that short trips notwithstanding.. that I can go touring on the weekends when I have time off. Frankly I am kind of ok with the fact that this is happening. I now know MUCH more about how to get a scooter to be dependable than I ever would have before. What I'm saying is thanks again to you who reply. p.s. on my last test ride, some guy in a car was honking at me and I ws like OMG what now? we pulled up to a light and he yells to me.. hey nice scooter ! My only wish was that it was a cute girl, sigh....ok I talk too much, but when I am over at Starbucks hanging out.. people love scooters ! Scooters make people smile for some reason. And girls LOVE em not because they want to ride on the back but because they want one too ! So... scooter life is still in litigation now. jury, out.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 1, 2011 15:56:07 GMT -5
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Post by sprocket on Apr 1, 2011 17:21:23 GMT -5
Those parts won't make any difference - ADJUST THE VALVE GAPS
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Post by apittington on Apr 1, 2011 17:33:04 GMT -5
Haha its really weird to see someone with the same exact problem in another forum, and even more odd to see the people answering him suggest the same things we all suggested you try, in nearly the same order.
From that thread it sounds like your scoot was part of a batch that got all had bad CDIs... makes me wonder just how many have the same problem.
Don't wanna jump the gun, but it sounds very promising that you may have found your problem. I hope once you get the new CDI on, you hop on it, and ride right past that 8th mile you kept getting stuck around. Think about how awesome that will feel.
Also, all the work you have done already, is stuff that you needed to do anyway, so I hope you don't feel like you have wasted time. Replacing the plug, vac and fuel lines and filter are all part of a good scoot, a lot of the people on here will tell you to do all that before you even start the scoot for the first time.
As to the scooter shops in Phoenix... None of them stock ANYTHING. They all follow the same business model... they get you to bring in your scoot, if you even get a quote, it will be insane, if you accept that quote, know that they are charging you retail prices for any parts they order, which they are getting at wholesale. Then your looking at $70-$85 and hour labor, from shops that find a way to make an oil change take 48 hours, and think it should take a competent mechanic over 4 hours to do a valve adjustment... So that when they finish "fixing" your scoot, they had you a huge bill, and when you can't pay it, they take your scoot, which they paid nothing for, aside for the parts they ordered (at wholesale), and sell it for a few grand used. They do not do this as just a way to recoup cost, they HOPE for it! The front desk guy at The Urban Commuter actually told me this!
And I have had the same problem with them not knowing what alot of parts are... I have actually brought them a part, that is on EVERY gy6 scooter, and have them tell me they have never seen one before... despite the fact that I am in a room surrounded by scooters that all have the same parts. lol
OK I'm gonna stop ranting now... I could go on... which is sad...
Adrian
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 2, 2011 0:12:49 GMT -5
valve adjustment is right on. The warranty that is on this scooter is for two years which is that parts are covered but labor is not. Basically that is like saying no warranty at all considering that the factory allows the dealer to charge anything they want for labor, and the factory Qlink (or whatever name they want to be known as lately) does not stock parts to their dealers they all must be ordered. So, basically you are on your own. Troubleshooting.. to dealers also known as trying various things and charging for it unless it's super easy...is completely dependent on how much income your dealer wants to make on you today. So all these posts I've seen defending dealers and the factory is a bunch of hogwash. They have a sweet little set up going that benefit each other but does NOT benefit the consumer. Any warranty with no labor coverage is just pffffff give me a break.
I post this today to say this. When you buy a scooter from a dealer or a shop, you are buying a machine, that's it. Any deals or good will or parts or service you get from them.. at a low or no cost.. consider yourself lucky. To expect any dealer to cry for you because you break down and immediately come and wipe your tears and give you stuff for free is just silly. I am very happy with my machine and my dealer clearly because my expectations are right regarding them.
To those who say, go buy a name brand scooter, you will pay more but you will have a much better scooter. I think that is ridiculous too because in a showroom recently I saw a Yamaha 150 scooter. This scooter was really nice looking, all blacked out. But other than that it looks and is EXACTLY like my 150 scooter! (and I mean exactly like it) and it was 2000 dollars more than what I paid for mine. Sure some of the components may be upgraded on it but.. just look at this forum.. I've upgraded most of mine and I'm only out about 80 bucks total. Even if their warranty covers labor.. which I expect it would, would you pay 2000 more dollars for the scooter? and guess what.. if you break down on that expensive scooter.. you still broke down ha ha ha! Truth is.. ALL scooters are cheap !!!! but some are more expensive. lol
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 2, 2011 4:06:44 GMT -5
^^^^^The reply you'll get to that last post is that the expensive brands from Japan or Taiwan come with higher-quality parts.......will last longer without breaking down. Debatable... What isn't debatable....the parts situation for most of the expensive scooters. There's usually a dealer in larger towns, and even if he doesn't have the part in stock, he has a parts catalog for all his models. No guesswork when he orders something.... And the warranty....the expensive scoots usually have a warranty that means something. And you actually stand a chance of having your scoot fixed at the local dealer.....who normally has manuals, special tools, maybe the parts, and support from the manufacturer. Of course you pay a bunch more for all this......some people need this sort of support. With all the Chinese scoots, no matter the brand, parts and labor differ from dealer to dealer. Finding a good Chinese scooter dealer.....not easy.
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Post by robb on Apr 2, 2011 4:15:12 GMT -5
It may not be a matter of high and low quality, but of adequate quality. I think you would be rolling with the air cooled zuma125 with it's fuel injection air cooling and 4 valve head, but there is no way to prove it. I think you have a scooter of adequate quality at a price that you could simply throw parts at it and be rolling again. I think yamaha would honor their warantee on a zuma. I didn't know Q-Link warantee didn't cover labor. I thought it did like CF-Moto's. Im sure you will get this teething trouble worked out and go on to many happy miles. You will still be ahead if you have to throw parts at it to do it. As with so many things these days you are your best warantee. Im considering a CF-Moto [ same mechanicals ] so i will be watching with interest.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 4, 2011 16:49:30 GMT -5
ok i just got the parts and put them in but have to go to work. i did run up to the gas station to fill up and i have to tell you... this scooter is a much different scooter than before. it sounds way different probably mostly because i was really careful to dial in my valves just right. it jumps to life IMMEDIATELY and there is no sound from the starter at all because it starts so fast. i can't wait for a real run tonight and hopefully beyond the dreaded 8 mile marker. woo woooo! confidence is high but tonight later will be the real test. keep your fingers crossed, so far so good.
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Post by sprocket on Apr 4, 2011 17:13:32 GMT -5
Hey.. good to hear! I'm sure you will pass that 8 mile marker post and keep on keeping on...
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 5, 2011 0:51:24 GMT -5
bad news... how can a scooter that runs SO good.. just QUIT revving and bog down and start to overheat? It ran great but then after only four miles without any hesitation it bogged down and put me on the side of the road again. I barely got home, starting and stopping after it ran a bit and then bogged down.
I am getting fuel. I am getting spark, with a new cdi and coil, in fact it seems to be running better. But obviously I am missing something SO important and so devastating... that it has to be something simple. hmm what am I missing?
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Post by apittington on Apr 5, 2011 3:46:22 GMT -5
You replaced the coil and cdi right? Or just one of them?
I have been researching some similar problems, but I'm getting all kind of recommendations from carb adjustments, bad coils, belt stretching... basically the whole scoot... Sigh... Your scoot has me stumped.
I will keep researching, but for now I still say you should clean your carb and adjust the a/f mix. If you replaced the coil along with the cdi, I would then inspect the belt. But after the carb clean and adjust, sadly I am just guessing.
Adrian
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 5, 2011 3:57:06 GMT -5
thanks adrian. yes replaced both coil and cdi. start up was awesome as was anticipation of it running great. sadly the saga continues. lol.
going to open up the scooter again and tear it down and have another look. first thing will be checking the air intake stuff, then pulling the carb and checking the intake and exhaust manifolds. then will be opening up the carb to clean. hope that i find something identifiable through inspection and cleaning. very frustrating. so you have to go through EVERYTHING on a chinese scooter? omg.
are sooo many posts out there about bogging down. could be air intake, could be intake and exhaust manifolds, could be a bad stator, could be fuel starving at the source still, my guess was the thermostat and no one suggested that lol.
i will so post the solution once i find it. so the thread continues i'll try to be brief and stick to the fix. suggestions welcomed.
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Post by apittington on Apr 5, 2011 3:57:26 GMT -5
My hope currently is that you will find some little piece of fuel line or something that has been floating around in there, clogging up a jet. However as it has been acting up at the same place, I don't know if this scenario is likely... But here is to hope!
Adrian
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Post by apittington on Apr 5, 2011 4:08:59 GMT -5
The most likely reason for that is that most of us have more experience with air cooled scoots. I could be wrong but I think if your thermostat was stuck, and the engine was getting so hot that it actually caused it to bog down and die, that would cause it to actually boil over or steam. Your scoot should continue to run fine even if it hot enough to get up next to the red zone.
However, one of the other posts I saw suggested that your carb may be getting hot enough to boil the gas in the float bowl, which would make it run bad, and get hotter... Not sure how to fix that though...
Adrian
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 5, 2011 4:15:58 GMT -5
remember this scoot is brand new. I opted for new considering I knew I would have to work on it anyway. Yeah, I'm hoping to find a big chunk of something in there. Turns out that I won't be making the first 1000 miles easily. 849 on the odo now. By the time I get it fixed 1000 miles will be quite a milestone. The answer to this problem is being so dang elusive, this bug has got to be found. p.s. This time it failed after only four miles running after being cool.
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Post by apittington on Apr 5, 2011 4:18:44 GMT -5
I feel your pain man, my scoot only has ~2500 miles on it, and has had it's share of problems. it's still not running prefect, but I should be fixing that this week, if I can find the time.
This forum has been a life saver.
Adrian
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Post by robb on Apr 5, 2011 4:37:44 GMT -5
Wild guess but you might want to check for a vacuum leak that get worse as things get warm/hot and expand. Like a cracked intake spacer or something. It could cause a sort of feedback loop, warms up , starts leaking, runs lean, gets hotter, leaks more and then dies. Cools off contracts and restarts. I presume that you have looked under it when it is running hot, and probably would have noticed a big exhaust leak, if there was one. If at all possible it never hurts to have even an untrained second pair of eyes.
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 5, 2011 4:48:42 GMT -5
You still haven't figured out whether it's a fuel starvation problem, an electrical failure, or a mechanical failure.....all somehow related to run-time/heat build-up.
Normally a fuel starvation problem can be diagnosed by spraying some carb-cleaner into the carb throat while the engine is in a no-start condition. The engine should start/run for a few seconds.
An electrical failure (that causes a no-start condition) usually shows up as a no-spark/weak-spark at the spark plug, and can be seen (better at night).
Mechanical failures are harder to trace down. Heat can cause a valve to hang open if the clearances are tight to begin with. Heat might open up a crack in the intake system, causing a lean/no-start condition. Heat could cause a piston to start to seize, and stop the engine.
Anybody thinking about this......you have to keep in mind the problem apparently fixes itself after a cool-down period, and the engine runs normal for a short while. That eliminates many possible failures.
A heat related failure of the trigger pick-up coil would be my next guess. You could carry a can of compressed air with you.....cool off the trigger coil after the engine dies/won't start. It can be seen after you remove the outer fan shroud covering the fly-wheel. If the engine starts after a short air-spray on the coil.....
The stator itself could be to blame.....wouldn't be the first one to fail after heating up.
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Post by scottish1 on Apr 6, 2011 6:49:43 GMT -5
Although the jury is still a bit out, I may be closer to the solution. After much reading and thinking about the pick up coil and the stator.. I thought that more than likely I did not have a problem with those components because the scooter runs so well before it has its problem after some miles. I realize they can fail due to heat, but I went back to the drawing board on other things.
I took apart the the carb except for the friggin place I really wanted to get at which was the jets because all four screws on the bottom plate over the floats are totally seized. No I do not think it is because of excessive heat I think it's just factory. By the way it's a Mikuni carb made in Japan. But I blew it all out with carb cleaner and let it sit awhile with carb cleaner in it.
When I pulled the carb I noticed that the clamp on the intake manifold was a bit twisted so I thought AHA maybe this is something! It could be leaking intake air there. Then I put my reading glasses on and had a good look at everything and I noticed that HEY my gas gap DOES have a little vent hole in the top.. very very tiny and inside of a depression that looks like just a metal stamp on both edges of the cap to show its alignment. It was getting air through it but not much so I opened up the vent hole a little bit with a screw and was able to get a lot more volume of air to go through it.
Since I am pretty confident about the valves, although perhaps I could adjust them a tiny bit looser I decided to go for a test drive. I got past 8 miles which was good, everything ok.. so I headed for a long stretch and opened up the throttle a little bit to see how it would cruise. Well sure enough it bogged down just as before. HOWEVER after turning it off and starting it right away it ran for another ten miles relatively trouble free before bogging down again. AND this time I smelled gas, I'm thinking maybe from just having some on things from working on the carb, but it wasnt leaking anywhere and was very distinct.
I didn't tell you the best part. When I got back home I noticed that my fuel filter (it's kind of a big little thing that new one) was almost full! WOW previously it had been running along about half full. SO !!!!!! what I'm thinking is this. I totally need to adjust the air fuel mixture on my carb, couldnt do it tonight.. because when I gave my scoot some throttle is when it bogged down! So I'm thinking I flooded it !! Now that I'm getting gas.. maybe that's all it needs now !!!!
So the jury is still out but I think I am on the right track. I didnt smell gas before when I perhaps flooded it out.. because there maybe just wasnt enough gas flowing as it flooded out and bogged down. So I re read everything in this post because I just had the suspicion that all the information I needed was in here.. and I just had to make totally sure that each and every potential reason was completely sorted out before I went about replacing the ENTIRE friggin ignition system.
The ratio mix screw on the carb is friggin IMPOSSIBLE to get at I will need a special very very short screwdriver. I'll need a new stubby one it's friggin impossible to turn the screw with any kind of confidence. So my next step is to warm it up and dial in the air fuel mixture. So maybe I am getting a little smarter I have been reading EVERYTHING I can get my hands on and there are wayyyyy too many systems that can cause my scoot to bog down. And you guys are way good at this gy6 stuff so........When I ran with a loose gas cap before.. I'm thinking that friggin thing was still sealing nicely on the tank even just sitting there so I many never have really introduced more air into the system at all on previous test ride. That and the full filter, and the fact that I may have had an intake air leak (kinda iffy on that but its possible) maybe have got me closer to resolving this horrendous issue for me. as I said before, it's brand FRIGGIN NEW ! It can't be that fouled up ! It just needs some ironing out of some tweaky things !!! wish me luck. will let you know.
Or maybe blasting away with cleaner on my carb opened up some air vacuum. SO.. idea now is .. if this works tomorrow or as soon as I can...I'll dial in the mixture and give it a run. Or maybe I am just leaking gas somewhere in my carb and I still have the same problem. GAAAAAAAAA ok jury out time for sleep...
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Post by Bluefront on Apr 6, 2011 7:30:37 GMT -5
The screws on the float bowl can be loosened using a very small vice-grip. But I doubt you'll find anything in there that could cause your symptoms.
Here's another thing......the electric choke. It is a timed hardware device (sort-of). It's little plunger extends after a certain amount of time, and shuts off the choke passages. It then retracts when the engine stops (takes a few minutes).
If that were to fail in the open (retracted) position, the plunger would never extend. The engine would start and run ok for a while.....but eventually the engine would be running rich (and maybe die).
They can be bench tested.....remove the thing from the carb. After it's cooled off, apply 12v and a ground to the two wires. The plunger should extend outward after a few minutes.
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Post by sprocket on Apr 6, 2011 10:50:53 GMT -5
If you have an automotive fuel filter on there they can be a problem. You need a filter designed for a gravity feed fuel system. Replace it with a fuel filter designed for a riding mower or generator etc.
If in fact you are flooding it can be only one thing.. a stuck float needle, or the little rubber tip has fallen off it or dirt is holding it open...
My scooter is like yours.. I can't get to the air/fuel screw. There is a frame member about 1" away.
Here is what I do. Turn the engine off when it is well warmed up like after a 5 minute drive.
Loosen the clamp on the intake elbow that holds the carb just a bit. I rotate the carb clockwise until the air/fuel screw is on top. I adjust the screw 1/4 turn, usually clockwise. I rotate the carb back into position, tighten the intake manifold clamp and start the engine.
Give it a minute to warm up again and see where the idle sits...
I know this is not the way to do this properly, but it worked for me and once you get the hang of it it isn't really that bad...
You will be able to hear if the idle is up or down, from the previous setting. The trick is to get the air/fuel adjusted so the idle is at the highest RPMs.
Then adjust the throttle screw until the rear wheel just wants to begin to turn when on the center stand
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Post by edfr on Apr 6, 2011 13:36:09 GMT -5
My vote is it is running really LEAN and overheating and causing a soft seize which would give you the symptoms of running and then start to slow down, then not starting until it cools off a little. To check that take your Spark Plug Wrench and run it again and when it starts its act Hit the KILL SWITCH and take the Plug Out and look at it. If its Dry Richen up your Air/Fuel Mixture at Least 1 full turn and then run it back and see if it makes a difference.
If it does make a difference then you can put it on the stand and see if you can get even a HIGHER IDLE out of the Air/Fuel Mixture by richen it even more. If not then you may have to Raise the Needle 1 notch or 2. Lefty
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