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Post by wingcommander on Jan 21, 2010 21:14:51 GMT -5
gotta wait on some more money before I can tag it spent all of the savings I had on parts lol Guess that's the joy of being a scooter owner
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 22, 2010 0:48:46 GMT -5
I hear ya. Times are tight!
I have parts I want to buy and the plan was to go through my house and put a bunch of stuff on ebay and craigslist but I haven't made time to do it.
Here a 50cc can be tagged for about $20 a year, no insurance required. A 150 follows the same rules as a motorcycle.
It's amazing how different it is state to state.
I wish the ice in my alley would go away. The weather has been as high as the low forties, but the ice in the alley doesn't get much sun, so it persists!
Good luck, hope you get it on the road soon!
- Tek
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 22, 2010 8:53:14 GMT -5
It is crazy here they make you pay the same as a motorcycle. The changed it this year (or at least that's what I was told when I went to the DMV thinking my 49cc could be tagged as a moped) which is what I thought when I bought it cause I had friends before this year who had done just that. Thinking it would be around $40 for tag/title which is what the old guy who I bought it from said he paid in 2006 when he bought the bike used. WELL lol needless to say I was shocked when I went to the little window and they said $200.00 I was like WOW lol and politely walked back to my car very sad lol. and then after that it's almost $50 a year for a tag cause like I said they think my little scoot scoot is a motorcycle ;D If that's the case I think I should be able to make it go fast like one, without penalty lol but sigh that cost to much to lol It's been really pretty here to it's killing me to not get this thing out more then just around my parking lot.
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 22, 2010 13:01:58 GMT -5
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 22, 2010 13:44:57 GMT -5
Sigh I called 3 diff. tag offices and got the same story from everyone. If it doesn’t have pedals it's a scooter no matter the cc's. And it's almost $80 for the title and then $40 for the tag, then I owe a late fee of $20 cause I didn't title it when it was not running lol + another $20 or so for tax roughly $160. a little cheaper then what they told me at the window but still kills $200. I'm getting the scooter can't ride blues Going around and around the parking lot is getting old lol Oh well I'm choosing to take this time to check the belt / rollers you were telling me about, change gear oil ect so either it'll be the most well maintained scooter going or I'll make it non-workable before I get the tag money lol BTW I really like your blue scooter, it's a shame people are so uptight now days. How fast does your go? and do you feel safe on the road with it?
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 22, 2010 17:35:28 GMT -5
Well, that's a little better price, and what the seller told you is pretty accurate - $40 a year for tags, starting next year!
You will find that things like the weather will really affect performance on a bike with such a small engine. Depending on whether it is cool or hot, dry or humid will affect performance.
Mine will currently get up to 28 pretty quick, then creep up to 35 - 37 on flat ground, with those optimal atmospheric conditions.
If you throw in a slight hill I can't achieve top speed, a slightly greater hill and I lose speed. It is just geared too high too soon.
Mine currently has the stock variator. When I first take off it accelerates well up to about 18, then I can feel it shift into high range. When this happens it bogs down and doesn't accelerate quickly.
This is where the hi performance variator and lighter weights would come in handy. They should give the bike a broader acceleration curve, and possibly a couple more mph on the top end if I use sliders.
Safe on the road - I have ended up on a speed limit 40 road with no one around, only to find myself going up a slight incline, with a growing collection of motorists behind me. That made me nervous! Since then I've noticed that I've started choosing alternative routes.
It definitely inspires a proactive driving mindset.
I think I'm like you - 30 is a bit too slow. If I could count on 35, and get there quickly, I would feel like the bike is doing pretty good. Anything beyond that is icing on the cake.
On the other hand, when I hop on the 150 it feels like a rocket in comparison! But then when I get on my old 700cc Suzuki, that makes my 150 feel slow. I guess it's all relative.
I guess it has to do with where you're going to drive it. Although I read a blog by a guy that went coast to coast on a Honda Metro at 3mph, I wouldn't recommend it. At the other end of the spectrum, it is perfect for a large campus, especially if you can park it like a bicycle.
I live in a moderate sized town where I can go anywhere in town on 30, 35 or 40 mph streets.
I think some of the appeal is the uniqueness of a bike with a piston the size of a film cannister that can still get me around town.
By the way, my 50cc bike doesn't get any better mileage than the 150. It would if I drove it 25 mph all day, but as I'm sure you understand - I have it wide open most of the time. On the 150 I don't have to try as hard, so it doesn't use much fuel. Both get around 75mpg.
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 22, 2010 23:26:00 GMT -5
Tek, I was doing some reading on the variator restrictions and read something about a washer being inside to restrict the speed? Do you think my scooter has this? is this something all scooters have? I'm gonna try and tear it apart tomorrow. anything else I should do if I get it apart??
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 23, 2010 1:24:25 GMT -5
Hey WC,
It's more of a ring, or collar between the two halves of the variator. It keeps the two pieces that form the pulley from coming together all the way. This will keep the scooter from achieving it's highest possible final drive ratio.
The two halves slide back and forth on the boss, like a precision made tube. The collar would be on the tube keeping the two halves of the pulley apart.
When I was researching 50cc restrictions it seemed that this hasn't been commonly used for a while, at least not in 4 stroke scooters.
Here are some of the restrictions that have been used.
1. The variator washer you ask about.
2. A restrictor (like a washer) between the head and the exhaust pipe. This chokes the engine a bit with excessive back pressure. (Also, sometimes as a result of a crappy welding job at the factory, welding slag is unintentionally blocking the pipe)
3. A restricted CDI. From what I understand there are basically three types of CDIs. Restricted CDIs that keep the speed down to under 30 by drastically limiting the rpms. CDIs that are restricted to around 9000 rpms to keep you from blowing up your engine. Unrestricted racing CDIs that will let you blow up your engine if you don't know what you're doing. I think most bikes currently sold have the second kind, restricted to keep you from blowing the engine.
4. Air box (air filter) restriction. Again, like a washer cutting down on the air flow to the carb. This would be somewhere in the neck of the tube connecting the air filter box to the carb.
5. A Y pipe coming off the exhaust pipe near where it connects to the engine. This is used on some two strokes.
Your scooter is a 2005. I'm not sure what was being used at that time. A friend and I bought the same scooter (like my blue one) and tore one apart one day. We found none of these restrictions.
The common thing we found was that both of them shifted into the high range really early and then never had enough power to get over 30 or so.
From what I've read, this is pretty common on the newer scooters, to restrict, or detune them at the variators to meet the 30mph requirements of most states for mopeds.
I have also read of a newer scooter with the air box restriction.
You might check for all the above, who knows? You might have one of them.
If nothing else, you could repaint your exhaust pipe with some high heat grill or engine paint while you have it off. Just be careful not to loose the little steel donut that is between the exhaust pipe and the engine head. That is the exhaust gasket. Without it your engine will hiss and backfire. And be gentle with the bolts that hold it on, you don't want to strip or break them.
Good luck, maybe you'll find something simple!
- Tek
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 23, 2010 12:09:52 GMT -5
ok so i managed to get the cover off someone had put some kind of glue all over the back side. Sigh. Now I can't get the variator off. I tried to find an impact wrench around town but no one carrys one for under $60.00 Big sigh! is thier any other way to get the thing off?? also I attached the pic above and mine dosen't look like the other photos Iv'e seen, thiers a little gear above the variator? is that normal? I noticed a little half washer on that would that be a restirctor? lol I seem to have gotten myself in over my head again lol
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 23, 2010 12:45:11 GMT -5
This is the little tiny washer I was talking about is that normal? ok I managed to get my camera inside the belt area would I be able to see the washer from here or would I have to actually take the thing apart to see it?
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Post by capturedbyrobots on Jan 23, 2010 13:14:01 GMT -5
You have no restricting washer. Great pict!
As well, my Jalon/Geely 2003 had no rev limiter in the CDI. Just found that out the hard way...
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 23, 2010 19:56:13 GMT -5
WC, Nice pics. That's not a restrictor, that belongs there. I believe that's part of the starter. I'm not seeing a restrictor collar in the variator either. It would be a washer or collar that floats on the shaft between the inner and outer halves of the variator to keep them from coming together at hi rpm. Great variator explaination: www.scootershopsc.com/variatorexplination.aspSome folks have made their own tool to hold the variator still. Others have cobbled together a way to brace the variator using a block of wood and a screw driver or brake adjusting tool. You'll most likely need two sets of hands for that. You can buy the special tool to hold it still here ($30): enviromoto.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=5374643$30 Harbor Freight 12 volt impact wrench (no need to hold the variator still with this) You'll also need impact socket - standard sockets may shatter using an impact wrench: www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92349I guess I hadn't thought about the expense of buying the tools to do the job in addition to the parts... Sorry! How much will your local shop charge to do the change out? - Tek
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 23, 2010 20:14:21 GMT -5
Well I don't mind buying tools because after having a scooter just riding around the apartment complex I'm hooked and always want to have one so I can always just stock up on tools. The only issue I have now is money lol once my student loan comes in I can do more but crunched right now. I'm only getting 25mph on the scooter now I don't know why. I was getting very close to 30 (tested with a gps) I took the air box off and didn't see any other washers the only thing I couldn't get to was the exhaust I'm not sure how to take that all apart and it got dark so oh well. The local shop wants $65.00hr which is crazy for what I need done here, for that I can have the impact wrench and have it for the future. So i'll prob. just wait and get the impact wrench as soon as I can. so now I don't know if the thing is actually restricted anywhere or what I'm a little frustrated. My one question what size weights would I need to order so maybe they'll be here when I can get the wrench? it dosen't feel like it's getting all the power it has when I max out the gas? any ideas?
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 24, 2010 3:52:44 GMT -5
Sounds like CapturedByRobots replaced the CDI, right?
We were fortunate that we had a 150cc to swap parts with, so we pulled the one out of that to test with and found that it performed the same.
WC, Be careful with that student loan living! It is pretty easy to get student loans to live on, but hard to pay them off. By the time I got out of college I was looking at 10 years to pay off my loan. I really wish I had borrowed less. Of course, I didn't ride a scooter or live frugally.
$65 to R & R a variator, ouch! You're right, it might be worth while and cheaper to buy the tools!
Which weights to get? Here's the problem with that. The scooters are all different shapes and sizes and the weights they put in varies from model to model, year to year.
The only reliable thing to do is pull them out and weigh them, then you know where to start.
If your old ones don't have flat spots on them you can still use them. Remember, I don't know what your current weights are, but lets say they are 10's. You could get something two sizes down and then put them in. If that seems too light, you could pull out every other one and replace them with the originals. Then you would have an in between weight.
IMPORTANT - If you do this, be sure you go every other weight to maintain the balance. You don't want to have three 10 gram weights on one side and three 6 gram weights on the other, that will throw your variator out of balance and cause other problems fast!
IMPORTANT too - When you put the variator back together, make sure the two halves aren't pinching the belt, making appear that the nut is tight when it's not. This will cause the nut to work loose and fall off while you're going down the road.
Not sure why your speed is down, that's odd. Have you changed anything that you can remember?
- Tek
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 24, 2010 14:11:19 GMT -5
the only thing I've changed is the new voltage rectifier could that make the thing go slower?
also I read that some have drilled two small holes in ther muffler and since I can't get mine off do you think this would help?
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 24, 2010 15:32:55 GMT -5
WC, I don't think changing the rectifier would have anything to do with your loss of speed.
As for the muffler hole - mod, I've read about it, but have been reluctant to try it myself. I think if I had cheap access to another muffler, I'd be more inclined to experiment with the one I have.
I did have another thought, and that was regarding fuel. Have you put new fuel in lately? Did you get it the same place as before? Was it regular or premium? (should be premium)
I know on mine the fuel seems to be critical. I have learned to fill up at a certain station in my area for a couple of reasons. 1. They have seperate hoses for each grade of fuel. This is important because what it in the hose and delivery system will pretty much fill the little tank on a scooter, so if the last guy bought regulare and you're using premium, you'll be getting the last of his regular. 2. Quality. I've found that while my jeep will tolerate poorer quality gas, the scooters will not. I stopped taking the scooter to the cheap place that I take my cars because they just didn't run right, as smooth or as fast.
- Tek
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 24, 2010 17:17:01 GMT -5
Actually thinking about it I did put some cheaper gas in this time since all the gas was leaking out I was afraid this would do the same do you really think it could make that big of a change? 5mph? if so wow! I tried a bunch of things today. 1st: i put the old rectifier in and made sure not to turn on any of my new lights. 25mph same speed. 2nd: took my old main jet from my old carb. and drilled it out apparently to much cause all it did after about 10mph was bog down. After that put the new one back in back to 25mph 3rd: I watched a YouTube video I think it was were they actually took the air filter off but still had the pipe from the carb running to the air box. 25mph 4th: banged my head against the wall, came in and here I am I sent Enviromoto a question about the 72cc kit and he told me to check my tires / belt / rollers before I did anything because apparently they made some stupidly slow scooters in 2005. Even with the kit he said I'd be lucky to hit 35, which for my taste is still to slow to get in the traffic here. & before anyone sends me a message about doing upgrades that are illegal, I am getting my MC lic. but I want a bike I'm not going to get killed on for going wayyy to slow! So Tek, at this point I think I'm really just going to go down and do 2 things. First I'm going to go get the impact wrench and see what's up with the weights and then if still I have no change after doing that I'm going to the tag office getting the title in my name finally and selling it for a 150cc. This time if it doesn’t run right, so I can see how fast it goes before I hand over my money, instead of taking someone’s word (the guy told me this one would go 45mph when the carb was right) I will ride it full throttle lol I bought myself a really good lesson with this bike though! Plus I've had fun working on it. It's just the way the kids drive here (I'm 29 I got a late start in college) it scares me to go on the road with anything that goes less then 45. As for the loans I know what you mean! I didn't have much choice though if I wanted to go to school. And I don't have a lot left over after classes cause I don't get the full amount I could. I'd rather be a little poor then in debt the rest of my life which is why I bought a broke down scooter to start with hehe
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 24, 2010 19:50:59 GMT -5
I tried several stations before I found the premium my bike "liked." Now I go out of my way to get it there.
I can tell you now that you will not get that bike to go 45 without spending a TON of time and money on it. For the money you would spend you could easily buy a 150.
Now that this one is running you can probably sell it for more than you paid for it, although honestly not much more if the buyer knows what they go for online
I admire how much you are willing to work on it, that's commendable! You're right, you've learned a lot!
The problem with opening up the air intake is that alone won't help. You'd need to find the right main jet then too. Same thing with a performance muffler.
I would put in some quality premium fuel and see if that makes a difference after a few miles.
A couple of questions -
How many miles are on it?
When it is wide open going down the road, does it seem to be at a hi rpm? Like maxed out?
- Tek
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 24, 2010 20:53:04 GMT -5
It just turned over to 2000miles. and no it doesn’t seem to max out, it sounds like theirs way more power just waiting to be unleashed I just can't figure out how to do so I don't have a gauge on it to see what it's doing 100% but by ear it does sound like it can give way more. Thanks Every time I work on it I feel close to my late father so I think that's one of the motivations I really do appreciate all the help you and everyone has been giving. I wouldn't have even been brave enough to do 1/2 the stuff without u guys!
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 25, 2010 13:47:56 GMT -5
WC,
With 2000 miles on it, your belt may need to be replaced. This isn't a certainty, it may be perfectly fine, but many of the chinese scoots were shipped with the cheapest belts they could find. Inspect it when you have the cover off and make sure it's in good shape. If the belt is worn it will impact performance.
Try premium instead of regular fuel.
Here is a quick list of things you could do to improve performance:
While you don't want the bike to be going down the road screaming its guts out, neither do you want it lugging. Can you feel it shift into its hi range too soon? If so, then lighter rollers would do you some good and would be a pretty cheap upgrade.
A little more money for sliders.
A little more money for a performance variator.
A little more money and time setting it up for a low restriction air filter and selection of carb jets.
If you do that you'll want to put on a performance exhaust or modify the original.
You could get a performance coil to deliver a hotter, more consistent spark.
You could go with Environmoto's power pak 72cc kit. (80cc kits are available and will give you even more power, but these put a lot of strain on the bottom end, and tend to wear out engines quickly.)
After all that, some guys report top speeds of 45 - 47.
Bear in mid this is TOP speed, at an rpm that the engine can't sustain for any length of time. You couldn't cruise down the road at that speed without burning up the engine, so beware!
I used to work on bikes and cars with my dad as well. I helped him rebuild my first two mini bikes when I was a kid and would hand him tools and hold things for him when he was rebuilding cars to sell them. He would buy, rebuild, and then sell VW bugs. We didn't have a garage (just a "shade tree") nor a hoist, and the engines were small enough he could unbolt them and lift them out onto the table by himself. Lost him when I was 15 so I have some idea of how you feel.
This is a great forum, glad you've found some help here!
- Tek
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 25, 2010 18:21:05 GMT -5
Some good news! I went ahead and got my tag. (cause they said if I bought another bike I could transfer this one for $7.00) so I figured that was like prepaying for the next tag. Took the scooter on a back road here and got it upt0 37MPH!!! It took it about 3/5mins to get to that speed but it got their!! Surprised the hell out of me!! lol all I did was put new 93octaine gas in. I'm gonna try this week to upgrade the rollers and see if I can get to that speed a little faster. I guess the scooter had more power then I gave it credit for. it was sluggish at first then it felt like something broke free then it started climbing to 37mph. Now that seems pretty steady after about 5mins of full going. It still feels like it could do more. It's not screaming really loud or anything. Tek, I'm sorry to hear about your father. I was lucky enough to know mine longer he passed away two years ago. But it's never easy!!! He used to also get old cars / bikes to sell. The first thing I ever rode by myself was a Honda ST90 it was a great little bike. I to used to hand wrenches over and such but I stopped paying attention then when I really realized what I was missing out on it was to late. I'll try the things you were speaking about and see if I get any more MPH I would be happy to hit 40 easily. Now that schools back on I'm going to have to wait until Thursday to do anything but ride it to class but I'm excited about finally getting to do that!! BTW this is my very first motorcycle ride
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Post by wingcommander on Jan 25, 2010 22:09:32 GMT -5
what will sliders do? is that the same as weights?
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Post by qwertydude on Jan 25, 2010 23:15:35 GMT -5
If your 50cc is not getting good mileage I've usually found that the accelerator pump on your average qmb139 carb squirts far too much fuel into the intake, it's practically a super soaker shot straight into the intake. I've actually disabled mine and when I adjusted the idle mix the scooter actually runs better, no bogging off the line like before. Simple really I just bent the pump arm out of the way. Also I've found that my scooter's idle mix screw is set too rich also, for mine best running is at about 3/4 turns out. I simply screw it in slowly until the revs start to drop and then back out a 1/8th turn. This stabilizes the idle greatly. Doing these with stock roller weights my Baja SC50 is getting no kidding 120 mpg, this isn't based on the odometer this is gps confirmed mileage. Whereas before disabling the accelerator pump I'd be getting only about 75 mpg, about as good as my GS500 motorcycle, 500cc's and the same mpg? Something's wrong with the 50cc definitely.
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Post by cruiser66 on Jan 26, 2010 0:04:17 GMT -5
what will sliders do? is that the same as weights? They are weights also. There are two types of weights - rollers and sliders. The rollers are round like little wheels and the sliders are similar but have two flat spots designed into them. They are named because of how they work inside the variator. The rollers are able to roll inside the channels of the variator while the sliders will slide in the channels because the flat spots do not allow them to roll. Sliders can give a slight performance advantage because you can use lighter weights while still maintaining the same top speed. The lighter weights give better acceleration. Doing lighter weights with rollers can also give better acceleration but they will most of the time cut your top speed down because you may not be able to push the belt as high in the variator. The shape of the sliders allows it to give the same top speed as a roller which may be a couple of grams heavier. 66
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 26, 2010 1:07:52 GMT -5
If your 50cc is not getting good mileage I've usually found that the accelerator pump on your average qmb139 carb squirts far too much fuel into the intake, it's practically a super soaker shot straight into the intake. I've actually disabled mine and when I adjusted the idle mix the scooter actually runs better, no bogging off the line like before. Simple really I just bent the pump arm out of the way. Also I've found that my scooter's idle mix screw is set too rich also, for mine best running is at about 3/4 turns out. I simply screw it in slowly until the revs start to drop and then back out a 1/8th turn. This stabilizes the idle greatly. Doing these with stock roller weights my Baja SC50 is getting no kidding 120 mpg, this isn't based on the odometer this is gps confirmed mileage. Whereas before disabling the accelerator pump I'd be getting only about 75 mpg, about as good as my GS500 motorcycle, 500cc's and the same mpg? Something's wrong with the 50cc definitely. I'd never heard of disabling the accelerator pump. Anyone else have any luck with that? - Tek
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 26, 2010 1:53:40 GMT -5
Yeah, like cruiser said. Also, because sliders are already flat with more contact surface area they will last longer. Standard rollers will often develop flat spots and then become problematic. Standard roller style weights: Performance Slider style weights: - Tek
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 26, 2010 1:59:28 GMT -5
WC, Great picture of you and your father, by the way! We don't appreciate what we have until it's gone, do we?
That's great that you were able to get to 37. On this tiny engines the smallest thing (like fuel) makes a difference.
Glad you got a tag and can start riding. Ride careful and stay safe!
- Tek
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Post by qwertydude on Jan 26, 2010 2:06:42 GMT -5
Disabling the accelerator pump is a common mod done to Yamaha Vino 125's, it's done because the carb is parts binned from larger engines and simply jetted down but the accelerator pump was not tuned correctly from the factory. Rather than people trying to tune it they found out such a small engine on a cvt transmission doesn't benefit too much from the accelerator pump. In fact on mine prior to disabling it if I rapidly blipped the throttle more than a couple times it would choke my engine with gas hesitate and it would die, try it on yours and see if the engine bogs and then recovers, it shouldn't. It should return to a normal idle from the higher rpms. The QMB139 being sourced from a 72 cc design, and I'm sure the carb was originally intended for even larger engines, retains the high volume pump. In fact people who disable the pump on their Vino's report mpg gains from stock 65 mpg all the way upwards of 90, which is where it should be since my Buddy 125 did 90 mpg consistently, why couldn't the Vino? The accelerator pump is square to blame. If you don't want to permanently bend the arm simply tie it off with a wire twist tie and adjust the idle mix. I bet you'll notice smoother acceleration and better mpg. I even tried this on my Honda Rebel and by taking it easy I managed to achieve 90 mpg in city driving. Although that carb was tuned properly so disabling the pump caused stumbling when you opened the throttle too rapidly.
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Post by teknoyd on Jan 26, 2010 2:21:28 GMT -5
Qwert,
Huh. I'll have to give that a try.
Well, when it gets a bit warmer. Tried to wash the car today and it was freezing before I got all the way around it. Too cold for wrenching...
- Tek
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Post by qwertydude on Jan 26, 2010 2:33:45 GMT -5
On a 150 though you may have to change the pilot jet, maybe not, but I don't have experience with the GY6 150's. Wouldn't hurt to try and temporarily stop the accelerator pump. With gas set to start climbing it certainly is one step toward mpg happiness.
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