Bandit Motorsports and why I'm Pi@@ed off

[slowscootin07]

I'm posting this in a new thread because I think this needs to be separate from the other thread about Jim from Bandit Motorsports.

Here it is in a nutshell and I have all emails, pm's and receipts if anyone questions my integrity. I believe that I'm considered a well respected member of this community and you can trust me about not hyping this up or adding speculative BS. Back in September 2007 I was looking to buy a Pegasus and chose Jim from Bandit as the person that I was going to get it from because he is so highly regarded in this forum. He answered all of my questions and even more than I expected. After further review and help from the Dawgs here, I found that the Peg may not be enough for what I needed. Well, I decided after further research and very high ratings, I would go with the SYM HD200. I applied for credit with him and was denied from GEMB. (They're a piece of work anyway and had I known it was GEMB, I wouldn't have done so in the first place.) Back to the drawing board.

I saved money up and was getting closer when I noticed in January of 08 that Bandit now offers Layaway, PERFECT!!!. For $3,161 I could get a 07 HD200. I sent a $2,000 deposit late January and made payments until I was almost finished when I called him asking about a time frame for delivery. He had said that he was waiting for my last payment and then would order his next batch as soon as I was all paid up. I mailed my final payment that day on the 22nd of March.

Well after sending several emails and making several phone calls, I finally got a hold of Jim who assured me that I'm top priority and it's on the way to him, then me. Several more weeks go by and once again, I'm pulling teeth just to get in touch with him and my phone calls and emails are again not being answered. When I was finally able to reach him again, I was given one excuse after another and even more weeks go by without any further communication. Enough is enough I think, so on this last Monday I emailed him an ultimatum that I want a tracking number for my scooter or a full refund in one week or I would pursue legal means without hesitation. Please take into account that this scooter has been paid in full for about 6 weeks and was two-thirds paid for over 3½ months ago.

I get an email yesterday with him apologizing for the delay and after he read my words in the email states that he will be sending my refund to me as he can't get me my scooter as promised. Can you F'n believe this schnitz??? All of these months WASTED in research and "bragging" about how I would be riding a SYM real soon and now this.

I honestly believe now that I was never going to get it in the first place and I've been lied to all along. I'm angry, feel used and treated like a piece of crap meanwhile my money was and is being used for his own personal means. I'm not a bank! I see all of the fellow Dawgs stating on how they buy a scooter on Monday and in a week they're riding and I wonder WTF is going on, but I'm patient. No More... so I clicked the send button.

Bottom line here is that even though Jim may be a nice guy and may go above the norm to help those that are and aren't his customers, as a businessman, he leaves a lot to be desired. I am not the first person that has not received a SYM that was bought from him, and I may not be the last. I wouldn't suggest purchasing, or trying to purchase, a SYM product from Jim at Bandit Motorsports since you too may not get it and may get lied to and have your money "stolen" for several months.

I'm not going into exactly what was said in my email, but Jim if you're reading this you now have only 5 more days until that certified check had better be in my mailbox and I know you know I'm not joking. Express mail works great nowadays and I suggest you use it.

I will not be conducting any business with Bandit ever again, nor will I refer anyone to buy from him as I have done many times in the past in private and in posts on these boards. On the other hand I will not be posting slanderous or demeaning crap here on these boards as there's no point to it. This is not the place for it, but I do feel that I have to obligation to report this situation for those considering getting a SYM from Bandit.

Thank you for reading this fellow Dawgs and please take into account my warning from my personal experience.
Jeff aka slowscootin07

[Greg]

he treated me the very same way when i tried to buy a sym rv250 from him in fact i had to block my phone number just to get him to ancer my calls one lie after anuther and that fokes is how bandit-motorsports treats his customers and im shure theres more people hes done this to
Greg

[voodoosix]

wow. that sux, i hope it doesnt put you off SYM. i had considered ordering from him since the nearest dealer is 3hrs away, i think ill make the drive.

[slowscootin07]

voodoo, I'm still looking for an HD, but it's now a lot tougher. I'm gonna call scooterworks and see what they can do for me. Here's the kicker about this too, not only did he lose (or did I lose?) my sale, but depending on if Mrs. Slowscootin could handle the HD200, another could've been sold and V-dawg really likes the Mio 50, so thats even another loss. tsk tsk tsk.

[thezapper]

Hmm, I'm having a bit of trouble seeing the problem here.

Frustrating yes. Sounds like the Back and Forth contact was a nightmare.

But really, "Layaway" on a scooter?... When the layaway was started, was it clear that you were actually "Lay-ing away" a real physical product in the vendors store? Or that he would 'mearly' order the bike when you paid up?

If the latter, I think he acted honestly. You gave him an ultimateium, he looked at the situation and decided he would not be able to meet your demand (i.e. he cant get it in time, etc)., and he immediately refunded you per *your* request. He did not play games and 'try' various excuses to keep your money longer.

If the former, then I think you have a legit beef! (WTH wasn't your bike ready when you paid it off).

If you "Didnt know" as to what exactly you were getting in return for him holding your money, then, that is a buyer (and maybe a seller problem).

I dont know, maybe I'm old scooter. To me, "Layaway" means I walk into Sears; pick up the lawnmower I want; pay them money; they take the lawnmower and put it in the back for me.

.... not giving them money for a 'vague promise' of delivery.

But again, think a scooter is not really an appropriate lay-away item... but that just me.

I hope you find a bike you like. I'm sure you will. (With 3K+ you can almost get a burgman!).

TZ

[flhtri]

Noticed that their is a Sym dealer inChicago now. Or do you know anyone going to Florida that could bring you one back?

[slowscootin07]

thezapper-- I won't go into our conversations that we had, but in all honesty you are wrong on many levels and please I mean that in a constructive manner. Please don't take it personally as I do value your opinions and mean no ill will or insults:)

For starts, whether it was in stock or to be ordered isn't the point. When I made my last payment late March, the scooter was supposedly ordered then in a batch of five and on it's way to him, then on it's way to me as again, he was waiting my final payment. Also, my money has NOT been immediately refunded and I do NOT have a tracking number with it being sent yet. This is "later" in the week as far as I'm concerned, as it was also said that it would be sent to me by now. As for my demands, I demanded only what is rightfully mine and that is the money for the service(scooter) that I paid for and it has nothing to do with meeting my shipping deadline. I won't go into the games portion of it. As long as I get my money, I'm satisfied, but I am NOT going to wait and wait for it.

Let's use your lawnmower as an example and say you finish paying it off and go pick it up, but they don't have it and can't get it. Wouldn't you want your money back immediately? What if they wouldn't give you your money back immediately?

Don't forget that it was 2/3 paid off in Late January in the first place. I knew that it wasn't in stock and would have to be ordered, so that's not an issue with me. But saying it's on it's way several times, not returning calls or emails about it's progress is a different animal entirely. When I made my ulitmatum about the tracking number for the scooter, it could be the tracking number from Carter to him or him to me, I don't care, or the tracking number on my refund. The lack of the scooter tracking number leads me to think that it was never ordered. Oh well, as long as I get my refund by Tuesday, there's no problem on my end and I really mean that.

Karma to ya thezapper for adding your input and valuable opinions:)

flhtri-- If scooterworks (in Chicago) was a SYM dealer at the time that I started the layaway, you wouldn't even be reading this now:) They are now and I'm working with them but can't do anything until I get my refund. All I hope is that I don't have to get the red one---yukkk

I'm not going to turn this into a he said she said match and believe it or not still respect Jim as a good person that goes out of his way to help others, but not as a good businessman. Simple updates or "Houston we have a problem." could've solved this, but nothing except for if and when I finally reached him and it's on it's way, it's on it's way.

[thezapper]

May 9, 2008 15:12:32 GMT -5 slowscootin07 said:

Let's use your lawnmower as an example and say you finish paying it off and go pick it up, but they don't have it and can't get it. Wouldn't you want your money back immediately? What if they wouldn't give you your money back immediately?

LOL, we definitely agree. Using this example... I'd... uh....

....BURN DOWN THE SEARS STORE! hahaha

Good Luck though. I'm sure it'll work in the end.... Hope you got a good B&M store near you!

[allworld]

This is all very good to know

[Andi]

slowscootin07,

Sorry for your trouble, but reading your post I would have to agree with "thezapper".

I'm not in any way affiliated with Jim except for being a satisfied customer and I'm not looking to make excuses for him, but I'm also on the other side of the fence since September as I now work for an equipment dealer including Honda Motorcycles as of this year.

I left a position as plant manager of a construction company which was hectic and always busy, but working as service manager for an equipment dealer and trying to keep customers happy is a whole other dimension and extremely challenging. There are so many variables to overcome, from getting stock in a timely fashion, getting what was ordered and undamaged, right up to overcoming staff problems, not to forget of course the unwanted evil of any business ..... cash flow. Which is all the more difficult when a business is growing and extremely busy.

Under the circumstances I can understand you are upset and maybe Jim could have been more forthcoming, but I don't think it was an ill attempt, as upon your ultimatum he refunded your money. Seems to me he was trying to do the right thing and I'm sure he would have preferred to make you a happy customer.

Andi

[Greg]

he hasnt got his refund yet

[slowscootin07]

You beat me to it Greg.

Andi--I do not have my money yet. Last night I received an email regarding that it would be sent Monday the 12th with a refund receipt printed out too. I was also told that it would be sent last week. I have not received a tracking number for the refund, so again, I'm only going on words of what has been said and there's no actual proof that it has been mailed. I've been told many things that are mentioned above in my original post and until I have the check in my hand, in my bank and 100% cashed with all the funds available, I have not been refunded one penny-bottom line.

I have no doubt that there are 100's and 1000's of satisfied Bandit customers and the proof is in these boards. This thread is about Bandit and his ability to deliver my SYM product to me and not his own brands or others that he sells so please don't think that this a global issue. This is also about my experience with Bandit and I'm not trying to say that anyone else will have the same issues. Some of you may think I'm crazy, but I still think Jim is a good person.

Again, I'm not going to go into he said, she said and will update this topic when I have more information.

[YellowScooter]

I am a bit taken aback by this, being that he's a member of this forum and whatnot so I feel like I know him in some way. However, I have to agree with ss-07. There is a big diffrence between a 'layaway', and a 'pre-order deposit'.
If what was offered and agreed to was a layaway, then regardless of practicality, a scoot from his last batched should have been set aside pending the last payment, and not to be sold under any circumstances. Contact dodging by a place of business, be it out of the home, or out of a b/m dealership is just plain inexcusable. If the bike cannot be delivered, then the money must be returned voluntarily and promptly. Without having to be dragged into court. This has both civil and criminal ramifications.
I have to wonder if he already spent that money and now has to re-raise the amount before sending out the draft. Needless to say, that money had no business being spent until the product promised had been delivered.

[Andi]

May 13, 2008 9:06:39 GMT -5 slowscootin07 said:

You beat me to it Greg.

Andi--I do not have my money yet. Last night I received an email regarding that it would be sent Monday the 12th with a refund receipt printed out too. I was also told that it would be sent last week. I have not received a tracking number for the refund, so again, I'm only going on words of what has been said and there's no actual proof that it has been mailed. I've been told many things that are mentioned above in my original post and until I have the check in my hand, in my bank and 100% cashed with all the funds available, I have not been refunded one penny-bottom line.

I have no doubt that there are 100's and 1000's of satisfied Bandit customers and the proof is in these boards. This thread is about Bandit and his ability to deliver my SYM product to me and not his own brands or others that he sells so please don't think that this a global issue. This is also about my experience with Bandit and I'm not trying to say that anyone else will have the same issues. Some of you may think I'm crazy, but I still think Jim is a good person.

Again, I'm not going to go into he said, she said and will update this topic when I have more information.

Well don't know what further I can say and I don't like making assumptions. I wouldn't be able to ease your pain anyways.

I believe that honesty is always best, it won't prevent a customer form getting pi$$ed, but they typically calm down quicker and often even have some understanding for the situation.

I can't speak for Jim, but I mentioned it before that cash flow is the biggest evil in any business. Many customers think that as they pay for something the money goes into some sort of holding area so that if they change their mind for what ever reason and it turns out they want their money back, they figure its simply a matter of taking the money back out. Unfortunately it is not so, there are many hands dipping into that holding area and money gets used for every and all daily activities, its often a juggling act based on importance and then temporarily the money is done until the money from that big sale comes in or some of that big stock has been sold again.

And yes I have had the displeasure of explaining to customers.

Again sorry for the inconvenience, hope you get sorted out soon.

Andi

[mortar235]

May 14, 2008 18:17:08 GMT -5 Andi said:

May 13, 2008 9:06:39 GMT -5 slowscootin07 said:

You beat me to it Greg.

Andi--I do not have my money yet. Last night I received an email regarding that it would be sent Monday the 12th with a refund receipt printed out too. I was also told that it would be sent last week. I have not received a tracking number for the refund, so again, I'm only going on words of what has been said and there's no actual proof that it has been mailed. I've been told many things that are mentioned above in my original post and until I have the check in my hand, in my bank and 100% cashed with all the funds available, I have not been refunded one penny-bottom line.

I have no doubt that there are 100's and 1000's of satisfied Bandit customers and the proof is in these boards. This thread is about Bandit and his ability to deliver my SYM product to me and not his own brands or others that he sells so please don't think that this a global issue. This is also about my experience with Bandit and I'm not trying to say that anyone else will have the same issues. Some of you may think I'm crazy, but I still think Jim is a good person.

Again, I'm not going to go into he said, she said and will update this topic when I have more information.

Well don't know what further I can say and I don't like making assumptions. I wouldn't be able to ease your pain anyways.

I believe that honesty is always best, it won't prevent a customer form getting pi$$ed, but they typically calm down quicker and often even have some understanding for the situation.

I can't speak for Jim, but I mentioned it before that cash flow is the biggest evil in any business. Many customers think that as they pay for something the money goes into some sort of holding area so that if they change their mind for what ever reason and it turns out they want their money back, they figure its simply a matter of taking the money back out. Unfortunately it is not so, there are many hands dipping into that holding area and money gets used for every and all daily activities, its often a juggling act based on importance and then temporarily the money is done until the money from that big sale comes in or some of that big stock has been sold again.

And yes I have had the displeasure of explaining to customers.

Again sorry for the inconvenience, hope you get sorted out soon.

Andi

hmm sounds more like you're describing a bank...

[slowscootin07]

I run a cage shop and am the manager and head mechanic of said shop. If one of my customers came in and wanted a new engine put in, I'd need for the engine to be paid for upfront and would charge the labor afterward. If that person gave me the money and I never ordered it or for some reason couldn't get it, then I have no legal right to that money and by law must return it upon demand, not in 1 day, 1 week, two weeks, but immediately in the form that it was presented. That money is not mine to play with- period. If I took their money knowing that I couldn't or wouldn't do the work or get the engine at all, then that's theft by deception.

I understand your analogy Andi and have seen "It's a Wonderful Life," so I know about banks, credit unions, insurance companies and how their (your) money isn't just sitting in a jar waiting for you. It's being traded, invested and marketed as the company sees fit.

We're not talking about a bank here, plain and simple we're talking about retail sales and I bought something that I cannot get and have not been refunded for it.

I have a local B&M who is temporarily holding a HD200 for me but if someone walks in and wants to buy it now, I'll get a phone call and have to buy it then or I lose it.
WHERE'S MY GD MONEY!!!

I don't like the word hate, but Jim if you're reading this, then trust me when I say I'm really going to HATE what I'll have no choice but to do if I don't have that check in my possession by the time I get home from work on Monday, May 19th, 2008.

I've said enough and I'll not reply any more to this thread, what's the point anyway. Actions, not words is my next step.

Peace out guys

[pressman1966]

This is only one of a few example why these Importers need to get away from on-line dealers and have them as Brick and Morter ones. They can be better regulated by State and Local laws, be licensed and bonded as they need to be in California. I would rather deal with a person face to face, answer and show them what they are getting, even take them for a ride on one of the few demo's I keep on hand. Will I low ball for a sale and match an on-line make sale, no service dealer, NEVER. Not due to expenses but due to the extra service I provide to keep them happy.

I teach them how to service their scooters, I charge no labor if they want to learn repairs with my supervision, I will not charge for making a house call to remove a rim so they can take it to replace or fix a tire. Road side service, ie: pick up to be repaired, no charge if it is with-in 50 miles. And best of all, I can be contacted to just answer questions of any kind. Find one like that, on what I strive to do.

[Bake is Back]

A co-worker of mine just bought a SYM 200 this last weekend. She had to hurry as he was selling everything on the floor. If you don't mind the trip to Cincinnati, Ohio, it would be worth it. He is a simple dealer. He carries Kymco, SYM, Vespa, & Genuine Scooters. Metro Scooters in Cincinnati. I did not get mine there. But he also sponsers the starting point for a big scooter rally each year(WKRP in Cincinnati). I know it sounds corny, but i guess about 200 people show up each year in March to party and ride around for a weekend. Personally, I am all about the comfort and only the reliable brands are comfortable enough for me.

[slowscootin07]

I received the check today and I'm so glad I didn't have to make the calls that I was going to. Lesson # 1 learned for sure---Just say no to Layaway
Lesson #2 B&M is the way to go

[banditms]

Fellow Dawgs,

I thought I'd chime in now that Jeff has cooled down some. I want everyone to know that I greatly appreciate Jeff clarifying that this thread was a record of his experience with me and my business, that we probably have 100's or 1000's of satisfied customers (as the board bares out) and that he still views me as an OK guy. I don't feel OK... but I've learned a bunch more about this business that I hadn't in my previous 5 years in the industry...

We are selling like a bat out of hell still. There's more sales of Linhai's and CF Moto's than ever before. I'm not doing many QLinks. probably because of the price and the requirement to get them to our shop first, set them up and then re-crate and ship them back to the customer. And while I did have plenty of interest in the SYM products, since I started selling them last August I've sold exactly 5 units... including Jeff and Greg...

First off, SYM, or rather, Carter Bros... not my biggest fan nor am I theirs. I got into quite a bit of trouble with them earlier in the year because I was offering SYM scooters for sale and shipment on my website. This really frosted their assess... or rather, most likely several dealers who were milking customers for higher prices on bikes thru local shops. This was right after I made the sale to Greg. I was instructed to remove my SYM webpages from my website and put on probation while they thought about what to do with me. I never knew any process could take so long...

I think most of my problem with Carter is that I'm not a dealer who is burning thru 300 units per year. I could never do such a thing here at my shop simply because 99% of customers who walk in the door are going to go for a Linhai, QLink or CF Moto... because of price. Maybe if I had the SYM's as my low end line, and the Piaggio line for the upper end, I'd be able to sell 300 units per year like my friends at ScooterStation in Portland...

Layaways - Yes, I know how they work. We started a program back in November for local customers to use to buy mini ATVs and Dirt Bikes heading into Christmas. Yes, we would sell them the unit off the floor... and put a sold ticket on it and put it in the back. I then thought of a 'brilliant' plan to offer Layaways on all the products on my website. In the entire time we've been offering layaways, just one other customer took advantage of the program besides Jeff. And hindsight being 20/20, that wasn't very brilliant on my part...

The working plan was that we would make our order of SYM bikes for the opening of season at the same time as when Jeff paid off his bike - about April 19th (to get them around first of May). Well, Jeff paid off his layaway sooner than planned and I wasn't ready financially to get my bikes yet... so I was stuck. I ended up putting off Jeff and placing my order with Carter when I needed too... but lost Jeff in the process.

I finally had the opportunity to talk with my regional sales mgr for SYM on Monday... to get some details as to where I stood with Carter and what was going on for the whole industry. It was made clear that they were looking for a new dealer in my area... that even though I ordered some bikes, they were on hold because Carter is out of RV 250's, HD 200's and Mio-50's until about mid-June. So this didn't help the situation much at all. I ended up loosing another order besides Jeff on that one...

Which brings us to Availability. Right now, most distributors / importers are out of the most common bikes they normally carry. There was a run by dealers on product heading into what would be called a great season given that gas prices are going to easily $4 per gallong. Sales have increased 200-300% at some sources. QLink is out of Legends... no ETA for any more. That cost me a sale. Qlink was out of Legacy's for a while but has them in stock again. Almost lost a sale there but had to make up for the extra time. CF Moto had depleted the better portion of their 2007 stock in LA, and is currently taking orders on bikes expected shortly. SYM is out of their most sought after models... and I heard that Genuine is out of most everything until mid-June as well. It's getting fierce... and fast...

So is Greg correct? Yes, we have unhappy customers all over the country. One customer in WA state got the wrong color - thanks to the distributor. One customer in IL had trouble with his delivery - no lift gate thanks to the distributor. Parts are showing up damaged or are left on the front porch and disappear. If it isn't one thing, then it's another. BUT... we have way more successes... most of our customers are very happy at this time. Sometimes it seems that the down side of business is just going to kill me... but I hear from customers who are happy to be on the road and scooting, and it keeps me going...

This isn't my excuse for my behavior with Jeff - I have none. This isn't an apology because I already did that for him. I am very happy to know that he has an alternative and will be able to ride. Trust me, I've learned alot. The layaway plan is dissolved. I probably won't stay with SYM because I don't think I'm the 'player' they are wanting me to be (plus there are plenty of players locally anyways). And I will get better at staying on top of my customers orders... and I will always try hard for my customers. I may fail sometimes, but I learn from it... ( - ;

Thanks, Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports

[Greg]

Jim , im not a unhappy customer you and i worked out things between us and im happy bandit-motorsports is doing better now imho your still a hell of a nice guy but i wont send anyone yourway to buy a bike i just dont care for the way i was treated good luck pal
Greg

[banditms]

Greg,

My apologies if you felt that comment was directed at you. In fact, it wasn't. I was just saying that I do have unsatisfied customers... while those are poor examples because I'm replacing the wrong colored scooter in WA (at my expense) and I had the scooter re-delivered with lift gate (at my expense a second time) - because these are my customers...

In regards to your post, fair enough. I too have long time friends that I think are great individuals... but would not recommend them for employment, or a relationship... or a home rental. It happens. You can like someone as a person but not like how they handle their business...

Thanks, Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports

[Aaron]

Thanks Jim for being open about the issues, your successes and failures. I to have had issues in my own business where I promised what I could not deliver when the time came do to forces outside my control. Jeff I am glad you got your money back and I hope you able to land a SYM soon through your local dealer. Thanks to all for being civil in this matter on the forum.

Aaron

[slowscootin07]

Thank you for responding Jim. I knew you were having problems with Carter as you explained to me, but I didn't like being kept in the dark. You have to understand my position on how the lack of communication was a bit frustrating and when we did speak, I was assured it was on the way. That's all water under the bridge now and I do have one waiting for me. Yes, it's sold, has been put in the back, prepped and ready for me to pick up so I don't have to settle for something lesser. Sure it costs more, but I don't have to do any paperwork or hassle with the DMV since it'll be ready to roll and I'll have a dealer that won't give me dirty looks for warranty or service work since I bought it from them.

I purchased it from Scooterworks in Chicago and they just started carrying the SYM line and have sold out of everything faster than they can get it and SYM is on a nationwide back order as they can't stock them fast enough. Jim is right about Carter and their picky little things and I've heard form more than one source say that Carter really doesn't want to push sales. Why??? Their biggest competitor in the US is Kymco and they are beating the snot out of SYM in dealer numbers but SYM is catching up very slowly. It's almost like Carter could care less about scooter sales, but if they can't keep dealers supplied with them due to demand, then what gives with that?


To all that's reading this, this is why I posted this in a new thread and not under the other Bandit one. I did not want to claim that this is the way Jim does business for all of his customers and a five year track record proves that. This post was about my experience and ONLY with a SYM product from him. Am I upset? a little, but I've been taken care of so there's no real harm done.

As an FYI, Scooterworks is getting 4 (I think) new RV250's in next week or so. I've been dealing with Ken there, but there are plenty of other sales persons able to take care of you too.

Since there's really no need for any further posts in this thread, I ask you Aaron if you'd lock this topic up.

Jim, you are a good person and I hold no ill feelings toward you, I just wish that we could've done this together.

[Aaron]

That's the way life should work right there folks. Kudos to both for sorting it out. Topic Locked per SlowScootin07's request. Good post.

Aaron