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Post by shaw725 on Apr 16, 2008 21:03:12 GMT -5
Ok, I'm a newbie and I was wondering how stable my Commuter 250 (Honda Helix clon) will be in the rain? I want to ride as much as possible but don't want to be stupid if it is raining. If you use your head and don't go too fast are you safe? Any advise?
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Post by shaw725 on Apr 16, 2008 21:06:06 GMT -5
How does a semi truck affect you on the interstate? I pull a camper with my truck and I know it sucks you in and then pushes you out. Does this this happen also on a scooter?
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Post by vatoolman on Apr 16, 2008 21:09:16 GMT -5
I never ride my scoot in the rain it's just to light. I do occasionally ride my bike but I'm still careful and avoid major roads. If you do watch for oil spots I've nearly lost it a few times with almost twice the weight of your scoot. And be careful of the cagers swerving all over the place in wet weather.
And watch for those semi's they can make allot of wind but with practice is gets easy to ride out just try to say either a little ahead or a good bit behind them to avoid debris.
John
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Post by "Big Guy" on Apr 16, 2008 21:17:41 GMT -5
Riding in the rain is the same as walking in the rain, it is no more dangerous than dry ground if you're aware of your surroundings.
You have to be very careful of the center of the road due to oil leakage from cars and trucks, and especially at intersections and gas pumps. A light sprinkle or misting can bring out the pretty colors in the middle of the road... the oil! After it has rained for a while, it's better, but I still always ride in the tracks the car tires make.
Hydroplaning is another issue, so keep your speed down. Accelerate slowly, stop slowly and with properly controlled driving habits, you'll be okay.
The most dangerous obstacles in the rain are, anything metal, like expansion joints in the road, manhole covers, RR tracks, etc. Not to mention pot holes (puddles). Stay away from puddles... they could be and usually are a pothole.
Good judgment and a mature attitude is the key.
And yes, you will get blown all over the road by trucks and RVs, if you don't fight it and over correct, you'll get used to it...
-Rich
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Post by scooterlizard on Apr 17, 2008 17:29:36 GMT -5
Riding in the rain takes more awareness and caution. visibility will be poor at times and the roads are slick from the oil washing up. Watch for puddles you can hydroplane easily if you hit a deep one, also stay out of the flooded ruts in the road. wet railroad tracks will dump you in a hurry if you take them at an angle. Watch for vehicles pulling out of side streets, most of the time in rainy weather they are not looking motorcycles or scooters and will just pull right on out.
Big trucks push a lot of air around them that will make it hard to ride when they come up on you. I myself try to stay off the interstate as much as possible for that reason. If you can feel it in your vehicle it's much worse on two wheels.
Being new I would recommend riding on lesser traveled roads if possible, until you have become familar with it's handling characteristics.
Ride safe, many miles and smiles.
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Post by motomech on Apr 17, 2008 20:53:13 GMT -5
Riding in the rain is something I do a lot of. If I was to park my bike during the rainy season here, I would miss a half year's riding. Vision- You already have a good shield on the Commuter, but it should be set up so that you look just over the edge. Then, with the helmet's flip shield ratcheted down about a 1/3rd., you want to look just over the scooter shield and just under the helmet shield. If it's done right, your eyes won't get pelted in all but the hardest down pour. Traction- The tires are everything here and while some of the O.E.M. tires are OK in the wet, none will match a pair of European tires like Pirellis or Metzelers. I "test" the traction by purposely skidding the rear tire. This gives me a feel for what I've got and then I can extrapolate that into lean traction and front brake traction. You certainly don't want to give up on the frt. brk., but grabbing a handful when leaned over is definitely a no-no. UYpright and with a good tire, the frt. brk can be applied surprisingly hard in the wet. Still, allow extra distance. Motorcycles and scooters do not hydroplane. Their tires have too narrow a cross-section to ride up on the water. Comfort- I've never owned a rain suit that was 100% water-proof, so I often carry a change of clothes. For gloves, I just use my regular riding gloves(it's not cold here)and carry an extra pair. I usually dry wet gloves when parked around the motor(on my BMW, I just lay them on the cylinders). On a scooter, they could be stashed up under the plastic somewhere while you went about your day's business. Feet are a problem. I do have water-proof riding boots(Gortex), but they are rather large and heavy. Toots, although they are a fight to put on, are very effective. Scooters have a advantage over motorcycles in this regard. If it was a short hop or a light rain, I would probably forgo the rain boots on a scooter. Get prepared, and riding in the rain isn't that bad. And besides, with a scooter called a Commuter, you need to ride or rain or shine. P.S., when I was a motorcycle courier, I rode in snow and sleet , But that is a whole other set of dos and don'ts.
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Post by Dennis D on Apr 18, 2008 8:20:55 GMT -5
A few things not covered so far: Painted lines on the road are always hazardous and slick, and even more so during the hazardous time early in the rain when road oils are still coming up.
Not only can standing water quicly slow you or move you over, but they can conceal large holes that can be an even bigger hazard.
Trucks:
There is the disadvantage of being very lightweight, but you have the advantage when on a two wheeler, of being able to move within your lane to put moore distance between a truck that is passing/being passed. If you don't let them take you by surprise and do that, it won't affect you much more than it would in many vans.
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Post by motomech on Apr 19, 2008 12:53:13 GMT -5
Really good point about standing water concealing potholes. I best thing for that, is to memorize the road irregularities for oft-traveled routes.
I'm not sure that being a "lightweight" is a disadvantage. Staying "planted" is a function of many variables, not the least is total mass and and the forces applied to the tires. At the very least, I think the weight factor is a trade-off, perhaps even an advantage.
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Post by griff10 on Apr 20, 2008 2:07:29 GMT -5
Like alot of people with experience, I won't start out a trip when it's raining, more comfy in the car and it's easier to clean afterwards. If I get caught somewhere while on the bike, ok then I'll ride home in it.
Only thing I've seen not covered is you need to be extra smooth in the rain, no sudden changes in direction or fast braking, so you have to allow alot more room between you and traffic.
I've ridden, not by choice, across the country on the big bike in the rain, well over 1000 miles of downpour over several days, it's safe just not always fun.
Rain suits, you get what you pay for. Pay $10 expect to get wet. For a good inexpensive suit, try FrogTogs have had rave reviews over the past several years. I find gaiters, like boots with no bottoms, to work best for the shoes. Only thing that'll keep your hands really dry is rubber gloves under your riding gloves, yes your hands will look like prunes when you take them off, better than all day wet hands.
Bill H.
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Post by rontopia on Apr 28, 2008 11:29:28 GMT -5
did you know you cant pick up a rattle snake if you move slow enough? it will rattle at you and act like it wants to bit you.. if you ride in the rain, ride like you have a rattle snake between your legs.. someone told me that once and I have done it ever sense .
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Post by scootdoggydog on Apr 28, 2008 21:49:40 GMT -5
did you know you cant pick up a rattle snake if you move slow enough? it will rattle at you and act like it wants to bit you.. if you ride in the rain, ride like you have a rattle snake between your legs.. someone told me that once and I have done it ever sense . what? i rode home in the rain one night with some terrible winds i got pushed all over the road and a few times it felt like i was real close to losing it so i would slow down and that seems to do the trick just slowing down when it gets bad just how slippery does the rain make the road? well lets just say i dont want to find out the hard way as far as the trucks go i just dont like it when the rain comes off of it and at you like your riding through a big ole boats wake another thing i noticed is at least with my headlights i cant see that far in front of me too good and some times big ole puddles like to accumulate at the side of the road which could cause some problems so i try to go for the high ground parts of the road as much as safely possibly ill also second the frog toggs theyre awesome and ill wear sandals or crocs i dont care if my feet get wet and they dry quick as far as gloves go i just wear them so the rain doesnt hurt my hands i dont care if my hands get wet they usually dry quick too
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Post by motomech on Apr 28, 2008 23:54:04 GMT -5
<<<just how slippery does the rain make the road? well lets just say i dont want to find out the hard way>>>
That's why I recommend purposely skidding the rear tire, to find out how much traction there is before finding out "the hard way".
<<<another thing i noticed is at least with my headlights i cant see that far in front of me too good...>>>
Were you looking though a shield? Almost impossible to see though a wet shield at night.
<<<...like your riding through a big ole boats wake>>>
Funny you should say that. I remember riding scooters during flash floods in Az. and plowing a wake higher than the floor board.
<<<...as far as gloves go i just wear them so the rain doesnt hurt my hands i dont care if my hands get wet they usually dry quick too>>>
I agree, I hate rubber gloves. If it's wet and COLD, neoprene(scuba)gloves are the way to go.
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Post by scootdoggydog on Apr 29, 2008 11:44:23 GMT -5
when i say how slippery does the rain make the road? well lets just say i dont want to find out the hard way
i mean how far can i lean it over before i lose it
and my headlights just arent that bright rain or not
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Post by griff10 on Apr 30, 2008 1:10:28 GMT -5
<<<just how slippery does the rain make the road? well lets just say i dont want to find out the hard way>>> That's why I recommend purposely skidding the rear tire, to find out how much traction there is before finding out "the hard way". <<<another thing i noticed is at least with my headlights i cant see that far in front of me too good...>>> Were you looking though a shield? Almost impossible to see though a wet shield at night. <<<...like your riding through a big ole boats wake>>> Funny you should say that. I remember riding scooters during flash floods in Az. and plowing a wake higher than the floor board. <<<...as far as gloves go i just wear them so the rain doesnt hurt my hands i dont care if my hands get wet they usually dry quick too>>> I agree, I hate rubber gloves. If it's wet and COLD, neoprene(scuba)gloves are the way to go. What??? Skidding the back tire is something to avoid doing, that's a real good way to get someone hurt doing a high side. If you don't understand this suggest a web search before you give that advice. Bill H.
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Post by griff10 on Apr 30, 2008 1:16:35 GMT -5
when i say how slippery does the rain make the road? well lets just say i dont want to find out the hard way i mean how far can i lean it over before i lose it and my headlights just arent that bright rain or not If your bike is set up correctly, meaning the tires primarily are not over or under inflated and if it's been raining for awile you can lean just like you can when it's dry, no problem. You just have to do any manuvers more smoothly because it's easier to lose traction with sudden changes in direction/braking/acceleration etc. If it's been hot outside and it just starts raining the road can be very slippery, best to park it for the first few minutes of a rain storm in the summer until the rain has a chance to wash away the road oils that bubble up when it's hot. Btw, one thing to remember: It doesn't necessarily start raining at the same time everywhere. Yeah I know this sounds obvious, but when you've been riding in the rain for a period of time you'd assume any roads you come upon have been wet for awhile, not always, so you have to be extra smooth and allow lots of extra stopping distances. Do not follow close or you might get a really bad surprise. Bill H.
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Post by motomech on Apr 30, 2008 7:14:05 GMT -5
<<<just how slippery does the rain make the road? well lets just say i dont want to find out the hard way>>> That's why I recommend purposely skidding the rear tire, to find out how much traction there is before finding out "the hard way". <<<another thing i noticed is at least with my headlights i cant see that far in front of me too good...>>> Were you looking though a shield? Almost impossible to see though a wet shield at night. <<<...like your riding through a big ole boats wake>>> Funny you should say that. I remember riding scooters during flash floods in Az. and plowing a wake higher than the floor board. <<<...as far as gloves go i just wear them so the rain doesnt hurt my hands i dont care if my hands get wet they usually dry quick too>>> I agree, I hate rubber gloves. If it's wet and COLD, neoprene(scuba)gloves are the way to go. What??? Skidding the back tire is something to avoid doing, that's a real good way to get someone hurt doing a high side. If you don't understand this suggest a web search before you give that advice. Bill H. I'm not suggesting it be done at 60 m.p.h. Ride in the rain enough, and eventually one or the other of the tires will slide/skid(hopefully not the frt.). Better to know what it feels like at 15 m.p.h. to know how to react(best to do nothing till the tire regains traction)than to just hope that it will never happen. And there is no better way to know how much traction there is. Anyone afraid to do this probably should park their scooter when it starts to rain. And if the bike/scooter ever did go down because of lack of traction, the result would be a LOW-SLIDE. I suggest you do a web serach to learn the correct terminalogy.
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Post by "Big Guy" on Apr 30, 2008 7:41:29 GMT -5
Easy there boys! ;D I have always agreed that emergency practice is a good thing, from braking to slides, however I don't necessarily agree to doing it on pavement at 15mph... The best place to do it is grass or dirt, and yes, you should experience the "balance project" in a controlled environment. Grass is very similar to wet streets, but if you do dump it, it won't hurt as much -Rich
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Post by Dennis D on Apr 30, 2008 8:11:27 GMT -5
Btw, one thing to remember: It doesn't necessarily start raining at the same time everywhere. Yeah I know this sounds obvious, but when you've been riding in the rain for a period of time you'd assume any roads you come upon have been wet for awhile, not always, so you have to be extra smooth and allow lots of extra stopping distances. Do not follow close or you might get a really bad surprise. Bill H. Kudos for that reminder! I often forget that myself. +1 karma as soon as I'm allowed to give another one.
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Post by simony on Apr 30, 2008 15:47:53 GMT -5
In theUK Wwhere it rains a lot!) We ere ti was taught the following
1) in dry 70% front brake , 30% rear this puts the rider & bike's weight on the front wheel compressing the suspension optimizing stopping distance.
2) in the wet split50-50 this causes the bike to squat minimizing the risk of the front end slipping out while giving best stopping effect in this condition
I also agree with all the points raised above, oil at junctions , and white lines can be treacherous.
r
simon;D
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Post by griff10 on May 1, 2008 1:42:59 GMT -5
What??? Skidding the back tire is something to avoid doing, that's a real good way to get someone hurt doing a high side. If you don't understand this suggest a web search before you give that advice. Bill H. I'm not suggesting it be done at 60 m.p.h. Ride in the rain enough, and eventually one or the other of the tires will slide/skid(hopefully not the frt.). Better to know what it feels like at 15 m.p.h. to know how to react(best to do nothing till the tire regains traction)than to just hope that it will never happen. And there is no better way to know how much traction there is. Anyone afraid to do this probably should park their scooter when it starts to rain. And if the bike/scooter ever did go down because of lack of traction, the result would be a LOW-SLIDE. I suggest you do a web serach to learn the correct terminalogy. In the rain you're correct you'll likely do a low side (and it's not slide), but you were talking doing a practice skid in the dry and once the rear tire regains traction you will do a high side. If anyone does follow his advice, and you pratice a skid you must hold the brake until the bike stops to do it safely. Highly suggest getting a copy of Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well by David L. Hough, pretty much the standard for two wheel riding skills learning. Bill H.
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Post by griff10 on May 1, 2008 2:28:10 GMT -5
Ok, should go further with this and explain the terms. High side vs. Low side refers to which side of the bike you'll fall off in a sliding situation.
On a high side you brake hard enough that the back wheel locks losing traction, then you let off, the wheel will start rolling again and can gain traction, when this happens the bike stops sliding suddenly and you have momentum causing you to fall off the top in the direction of travel, often the bike then hits you since you're slowing down faster than it is, bad thing.
On a low side the bike starts skidding and slides out from under you and you fall off in the opposite direction of the bike's travel, this is slightly safer since you still will slow faster than the bike so it won't likely hit you.
Neither are a good thing, but a high side is the big killer. You see it often on the cop shows on TV with a bike chase.
The thing to remember is if you do lock the rear tire and the bike starts sliding and changes direction (big thing to remember) then hold the brake until the bike stops. If you skid with a locked brake and the bike manages to stay straight you can then let off and be ok.
The other book recommended for safe riding that I couldn't remember earlier is "Twist of the Wrist" by Keith Code.
Bill H.
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Post by isawhim on May 1, 2008 4:20:03 GMT -5
In Japan, it rains a lot also, and this is what they do. They use any cheap rain jacket, kept in the trunk, but wear it backwards. (No seam in front, keeps rain from getting in.) That is for quick travel, and would not help you much if you are stuck in traffic. Your back is still exposed, while you sit, but protected while driving. Since air travels up your back, not down it, while you ride.
Nothing beats a full rain-suit, but that is not always practical, or easy to get into. If you are looking for a partial suit, look for one with elastic cuffs, or buttons or Velcro. That will help stop your suit from blowing up, from arm-draft entering your sleeves. You also want one with a zipper, covered by a Velcro or snap flap. That is an extra plastic flap to stop rain from shooting through the zipper.
You may want to ignore anything with a hood, since you should be wearing a helmet. The hood, if not on, and not tied-down, will act like a sail, and collect water. That water will dump down your back, when you come to a stop. (You can't see it acting like a sail, but all hoods blow-up like a parachute while you drive.)
Longer is better. Though you will not get much rain falling onto your lap, it will run down the coat, and drip all over you. If you have a longer coat, you can drape it over your lap, acting like a gutter, allowing water to roll off to the sides. Just be sure that you are not sitting on the back of your rain coat, or your entire ass will get wet too.
Hehe, never put your feet down, until you have come to a complete stop. The water wake from your wheels, even in the smallest skim of water, will spray up into your sneakers. That will wake you up, but give you athletes feet, if you don't have a fresh set of socks and shoes to change into. (If you wear rain-boots, make sure you have room to tuck-in your pants into the boots.)
Here in Jacksonville, Florida, it likes to rain around noon, for about 15 min. to an hour. (Not every day, but it seems like it, sometimes.)
In those short bursts, all traffic slows below speed limits. That is not a good thing for scooters. The drivers all get tunnel vision, looking more forward, and less to the sides. I always place myself as far back as possible, and lean towards the farthest side of the road. If I am on the right, I stay far right. If I am on the left, I stay on the far left.
If you get too close, you get tire-mist spraying in your face. You also get that "Sucked-in" feeling, when any large vehicle passes you. (More dramatic on smaller bikes.)
Leaning the bike... You should NOT be driving that fast in the rain, on a curve. You never HAVE to lean your bike, you choose to lean it. You should lean your body into a curve, not your bike. You only lean your bike into a turn, when you can not lean your body any more. Your bike should stay mostly upright, or you loose tire footing. (When your bike leans, you are touching the side-wall to the ground, which spins slower than the raised part of the tire. That causes slip, your faster moving, raised center, will eventually wear thin and cause you to fall as it slips and momentum pulls you out of the turn, into a ditch.)
Unless you are driving on a bank, at speeds over 50 MPH, on a tight turn, with a majority of the bikes weight above the tire-center... You don't NEED to lean the bike. (Not like I see everyone exaggerate the leaning.)
If your bike is that top-heavy, as a touring bike is, or a Harley Davidson, or a crotch rocket, you MUST lean, to keep the bike balanced, because your body can NOT lean that far, safely. There is not enough weight in your torso, to counter the off-set gravitational pull on the bike. Though, you still need to lean your body first. (That is why the high-speed racers are riding with the bike nearly touching the ground, and their knee and torso, hanging off the bike, even closer to the ground.)
Those bikes also have greater downward pressure, which will keep better traction, on the wider tires that have less curve to them. They never ride on the sidewall of the tire. (Tiy scooter wheels will ride on the sidewalls, on a heavy lean. They are not designed to lean far, because they don't need to be leaned into that far for any turns. This is not for the bikes with 16" or larger tires, those are designed for heavy leaning, even though the bikes may not be made for it.)
That is why everyone scrapes the kick-stand or exhaust. They are leaning like morons. Their body is leaning opposite of the turn, and they purposely dip the bike towards the ground. If they were leaning left, and the bike was leaning left, and they scraped the left kick-stand on the ground, they would have spun-out of control, or fallen off the bike. Those are the guys who will become a statistic for crashing to their death, on a turn, loosing control. (Of most sober accidents, fatality on loss of control, on a turn, was the cause.)
Which reminds me... In the rain... when you go to stop, or even slow-down, you are stopping faster than the cars behind you, most times. Always do a break-tap, to let them know you are about to stop, or are slowing down. just tap your break three times, so your light flashes three times. (That blink, catches their eye, and will give them a good heads-up. That will also piss-off tailgaters, who will move aside, so they are not having to look at your constant flashing lights, as you keep slowing down. They are doing you a favor. They would be the ones slamming into you, because they don't realize how quick you can stop or slow down.)
Slowing down is the worst, because perception is difficult on a scooter or motorcycle, for the people behind you. Your break-lights don't come on, but you can slow down almost as fast as if you were breaking in a car. When a car stops getting gas, it will not loose speed like a bike does, because the computer tries to keep speed, and momentum helps it keep speed. Once you touch the break in a car, the computer switches to hard deceleration mode. A bike is always in deceleration mode, when your hand releases the throttle, without touching the break.
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Post by kygtr369 on Jun 27, 2008 15:21:52 GMT -5
I have a CPI 50 Oliver Sport, 50cc. I was caught in the rain last evening and my CPI DID NOT like it at all!! It was bogging down bad and having a hard time keeping it at idle. With gas now $ 3.40 in Louisville Kentucky, I want to ride it work as much as possible. Any help with what to look for on my scooter when I play Aquaman?!! Quentin P.S. I have a really good service and parts manual if anyone wants a PDF copy. SORRY, GAS IS ACTUALLY $ 4.40. That's my public school math again!!
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Post by griff10 on Jun 29, 2008 1:19:40 GMT -5
Btw, hoods on rain suits are excellent, not common though. You wear the hood inside the helmet so water doesn't drain down your neck My First Gear rainsuit is completely waterproof, have ridden all day (12 hour day) in the rain and arrived dry. Boots and gloves are another issue entirely. Btw, for a reasonably priced rain suit specially for around town look for Frog Togs, I've seen them at Gander Mtn. but are available online for less. Have a good rep for waterproofness. Bill H.
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Post by gottascoot on Jun 30, 2008 21:42:31 GMT -5
I dont know everything,however I`ve been riding for 45 years,now live in Ga. half of my riding time in s.Fla. where it seems to rain on one side of th road and not the other(pop up sun showers they call them) the part I hate the most is the steel grate on bridges,I would hold my breath crossing them.no brake ,no gas. See ya gottascoot
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Post by griff10 on Jul 7, 2008 4:04:10 GMT -5
Riding on steel grates is ok, not great, but not all that bad. Stopping on them is worse, by far. Couple bridges I know of that are steel grated have stop lights at the end. In the rain in traffic it's no fun at all Bill H.
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Post by griff10 on Jul 7, 2008 4:05:24 GMT -5
How does a semi truck affect you on the interstate? I pull a camper with my truck and I know it sucks you in and then pushes you out. Does this this happen also on a scooter? Um...you actually take your scooter on the interstate? Brave person. Unless you've got something like the Honda Silverwing I'd keep these very light scooters off those roads for your own safety. At minimum you don't have any reserve power if something goes wrong. Bill H.
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Post by luckeydawg on Jul 8, 2008 13:08:57 GMT -5
Well It rained yesterday, waited till it stopped and rode home(2nd day riding to work 17miles) a little unnerving!! Did ok though cruised at 50-55...bike did well, it's just light! Did reward myself with a cold one when i got home.....
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Post by bike4miles on Jul 8, 2008 13:48:02 GMT -5
It is the wet season here in AZ and we get a lot of flash floods but so far I have not yet had to ride in anything more than a few drops but I know I will have some serious rain to ride in soon.
My debate is, should I ride on 55mph routs with stop lights or on the 75mph freeway when it is raining hard? I think the freeway would probably be safer since the chance of being rear ended is much less and there are less tain tracks and man hole covers.
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Post by hydrophoid on Jul 9, 2008 5:09:18 GMT -5
For more info check out the breaking section in this website: www.abatesc.com/awarenesssafety/individualmotorcyclesafety.phpThe high slide is more dangerous because you are getting flung off the seat and flying through the air before hitting the ground. It is only a couple of feet but it makes a big difference when you conk your head to pavement. The low slide is lower and you have less falling distance which equals less contact force. Funny Story: The night I wrote this I was pulling a 24 hour shift called staff duty. For all you not familiar with the army it is mostly answering the phone and yes we do manage to get sleep in there someplace. I get off of work and it starts Pouring, I mean huge fast drops coming down. I waited about ten min and decided I had to leave. I hop on the scoot and have no trouble getting home, but I really wished I had some type of rain gear handy, as I was completely soaked through. Even the contents of the inside of my wallet was totally wet. The point is that you can completely 100% drive in the rain. Just like a car you should adjust speed accordingly. And remember to give extra slowing time because unlike a car your brake disks are not covered and will always be wet!
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