How will your scoot respond in an emergency?

[glowguy]

I have a Baron 250PM. This is the basic Chinese 250 "Tourer" type scoot. I have been on it since early summer and have racked up over 6000 km. My usage pattern has been mostly for my 9 mile commute in Atlanta, with the occasional long haul to Athens and Macon.

I had a little spill right before Labor Day weekend. I got caught in some rain while on my lunch break. I was headed back to the office and had less than a mile to go, so I didn't pull over to put on my rain suit. I approached an intersection where I had to make a left hand turn. I was going faster than I should have been to try and catch the left hand turn green light and avoid sitting in the rain at the light. When I hit the brake to slow up, I of course spilled it in a low slide through the intersection. I had an armored jacket on and helmet, but was not wearing my gloves that were stored safely away in the top box. I ended up wet and a little road rash on my hand, but otherwise fine. Got back on and made it to the office where I chastised myself for not wearing my gloves. I promised myself to wear all my gear everytime.

As summer turned to fall and things started to get a little colder I decided to get some armored pants with a thermal liner. I had just been riding in denim jeans till that point. It was a good thing I did get some armored pants, cause I went down again on the day before Halloween. This time I was cruising across Atlanta on I-20 in the HOV lane during morning rush hour. I was on my way to a long overdue dentist appointment and was not riding on my normal route, or in fact a route I had ever taken before on 2 wheels. I must have been doing 60-70mph when suddenly everyone started braking in front of me. I started to apply my brakes and then things went bad. I think the rear wheel locked up and fishtailed a bit, but whatever happened I was on the ground very quickly. I have experienced before the slow moving time of an accident when every detail is highlighted. This was not one of those. I was up one sec and down skidding on the ground the next. The new pants saved my knee and my jacket and helmet performed remarkably well. My shoes, normal hiking boots, had all the shoe laces ground away and the metal grommets looked like someone had taken an angle grinder to them, but my feet were ok.

A quick comment on the scoot. The fat sides of the tourer protected the engine, exhaust and everything else about the mechanicals of the scoot. She got some cosmetic scrapes on the side but was still running when someone else stopped and picked her up and walked her to the side of the road. Also the top case (the biggest top case sold from JC Whitney) which had my laptop in a backpack did very well and protected my laptop from damage.

As irony would have it, everyone was slowing down due to the cops just over the crest of the hill pulling people over who were driving illegally in the HOV lane. One of the cops eventually made it back to check on me, just as I was getting myself back together. I told him I was fine (a bit of a lie brought on by the adrenalin pumping through me) and rode off. I got to the dentist appointment and called to have a friend come pick me up with a trailer. I was ok, nothing bloody and nothing broken. I actually thought that I had come through without a scratch, but noticed the next day a road rash on my forearm about the size of a watch face. I was also bruised and sore, especially my shoulder which had taken a lot of the initial ground impact. But once again, my gear did what it was supposed to do and I learned that I needed real boots as well as caution when applying brakes during an emergency or panic stop situation.

I took a few weeks off from riding to recover. Recovery was helped along by hot tub therapy and I was back riding before Thanksgiving.
I had also ordered a whole new set of gear and boots (Tourmaster has great stuff at very good prices).

I was back to commuting and was being very cautious and alert with every situation. Or at least I thought I was until Nov. 27th. I was headed home after work on my normal route, a moderately busy 5 lane. I was riding in the right hand lane doing around 30-40mph with plenty of space in front of me. A car well in front was slowing for a right hand turn and a couple of cars behind it were slowing. I feathered the brakes and went down again. I think the problem may be that the front suspension is dropping under braking force and the wheel is then twisting enough to throw me down. I don't really know. All I know is that under moderate braking conditions the scoot threw me to the ground before I had registered any problem going on.

Luckily all the safety gear performed as expected and although being a little sore all over again and this time a heavily bruised big toe (may lose the toe nail). I did learn that each accident is unique, going down at 60 I just sort of slid to a stop barely scraping my helmet, at 30 I rolled several times smacking my helmet a good bit.

I am now very concerned about my scoot and wondering if the problem is something intrinsic to this design having been thrown in a very similar fashion twice without having another vehicle involved, just trying to stop. It is possible that my inexperience lead to this. Would be glad to hear others opinions on that. For right now, I am back in a cage till spring, but I am considering moving up to a Piaggio MP3 when the 400 gets here.

[Dennis D]

After the accident in the HOV lane did you have the whole scoot checked over at a dealer? From your description of the last accident, it makes me wonder if you don't have some damage to your headstock or front fork from that incident.

[glowguy]

I have not had the scoot checked over since the HOV accident. I talked with my local scooter shop after that event and he offered to drive it around when I could bring it in to him. However, my work load kept me busy the couple of days I was back on the scoot and I wasn't able to arrange to get it to the dealer before the second wipeout.
Also, I like Scooter Steve (in Decatur) but I have questioned his judgement before. Back when I was just getting started he kept advising me that I really only needed a half helmet and I tried to explain that when I thought about which parts of my face I wanted to scrape along the road during an accident I decided that I really didn't want any parts of my face scraped away. Hell, I don't even like shaving.
When I am back up to fully functional (shoulder and leg are still sore) I may take it up to him to look it over, fix anything that is wrong, and then try to sell it off. On the day of the last accident I was talking with some people about scooting at lunch and had said, right there in front of my scoot, that I was planning on getting an MP3 soon. I think I may have upset her.

Anyway, I have a great deal of appreciation for wearing appropriate gear everytime and want to emphasize that point.

[gusset]

Hi Glowguy,

I'm glad you're in one piece, and that the gear has been able to do its job!

I have a question: do you use your front brake? I'm just wondering if braking technique might come into play. ie using the front brake, and squeezing the brakes somewhat gradually (building from zero to high force over about .5 - 1 seconds) to give the suspension time to settle the weight onto the front wheel, where most of your braking potential exists.

I do two "practice" emergency stops from about 25 or 30mph rather soon after leaving my driveway on my commute, to ingrain the habit of correct brake application, as well as to get a feel for how much rear brake is too much. I haven't yet had to perform a panic stop in actual riding, but my intent is that my reflexes will be trained so that if the time comes, I can avoid locking up the rear. Will I do it correctly, or will I panic, grab them too quickly, lock up the rear, and lowside? I can't honestly say; all I can do is try to build the habit.

[Dennis D]

Gusset-

I hsve the same question bout how I might brake in a real PANIC stop. Much more so with the Helix than with other scoots or even motorcycles I've had in the past. Mainly because the height and placement of the footbrake on the Helix is such that it's difficult to impossible to brake with your toe, at least with size 9 feet, so I almost always brake with my whole foot off the floorboard. When braking really hard, not only is it quite difficult to modulate the pressure well with one's whole foot on the brake, but once front braking takes hold, it tends to throw more weight onto my feet as well. I also feel(but may be wrong there) that it would actually be easier to modulate the rear braking if it was hydraulic instead of mechanical... as there always seems to be a little bit of "squish" factor in hydraulic brakes. But it is what it is, and I try to stay gentle on the rear brake to the best of my abilities.

The only real panic stops I've had so far were from around 35mph or less, because I was already anticipating possible situations and slowed down going into them. Each time the rear wheel ended up locked by the last part of the stop.... but that was at speeds where there was so little time left til the completion of the stop that low-siding wasn't a danger. A full out panic stop from 50 to 60 mph may be something else entirely.... that's why except for only short hops onto freeways, I stay off of them, so I can keep my distance and slow wherever it looks like problems could easily come up. What I'm most concerned about is the situation I don't recognize til I'm in it. I'm very alert about 95% of the time while riding.... I just hope that other 5% doesn't come at the wrong time or place!

[swampsniper]

glowguy said:

I have a Baron 250PM. This is the basic Chinese 250 "Tourer" type scoot. I have been on it since early summer and have racked up over 6000 km. My usage pattern has been mostly for my 9 mile commute in Atlanta, with the occasional long haul to Athens and Macon.

I had a little spill right before Labor Day weekend. I got caught in some rain while on my lunch break. I was headed back to the office and had less than a mile to go, so I didn't pull over to put on my rain suit. I approached an intersection where I had to make a left hand turn. I was going faster than I should have been to try and catch the left hand turn green light and avoid sitting in the rain at the light. When I hit the brake to slow up, I of course spilled it in a low slide through the intersection. I had an armored jacket on and helmet, but was not wearing my gloves that were stored safely away in the top box. I ended up wet and a little road rash on my hand, but otherwise fine. Got back on and made it to the office where I chastised myself for not wearing my gloves. I promised myself to wear all my gear everytime.

I'm not an aggressive rider. I've only hit the ground once since 1956. I've got way over 100,000 miles on 2 wheelers.
I'll usually catch up with you at the next red light. ;D

[WarrenS]

Disc brakes are easier to modulate than drum brakes. Drum brakes have a leading shoe and a trailing shoe. Old Hondas and other motorcycles had 2 leading shoes on the front. The leading shoes have a self actuating property that discs don't have. It is easier to lock up drum brakes. That is why disc brakes have become popular.

[Dennis D]

You know... putting the way the Helix responds when braking hard into writing, seemed to help me think about it a bit more clearly. On further reflection, I think that the back wheel sliding starts at around 14 mph, which is the point where the Helix starts to free-wheel when slowing down with the throttle closed. That's about where engine braking quits if I just coast to a near stop with the throttle closed.

So maybe I'll be OK in higher speed hard stops.... although I still don't know but that I might react and brake harder if it was an unanticipated true panic stop. There's no way to know for sure I guess. I'll just have to keep practicing hard hard braking and hope the good habits aren't over-ridden by adrenaline if I have to make an entirely unanticipated stop.

[bunnii]

I end up "practicing" panic stops on accident. I have a habit, even in my car, of waiting too long to start braking, so I've had to do quite a bit of hard, fast braking in my short period of riding.

I know a 150 is certainly different than a 250, but I feel like if my scooter does panic stops fine, your's should as well. I second having it checked out. You never know what kind of scooter-internal damage might have happened in previous falls or just from wear that could be affecting the current performance and causing other falls, past and future.

I don't have a whole lot more to ad to the current discussion, I'm in agreement with everyone that it seems fishy the way it's reacting to braking. I'm glad you've come out of them all ok, but I hope you'll get it checked it to be sure there isn't something weird going on with the brakes or the tires.

(I'm officially rambling now, so I'll shut up)

[tankcommander]

Bunni-
Ever been on your scoot while somebody is behind you *practicing* panic stops in their vehicle? I know it sure makes me shudder and hang on tight. Please be safe out there.

[griff10]

Old thread but been meaning to bring this up. With any new bike and specially at the start of the riding season it's a really good idea to practice emergency maneuvers on the bike. Best place is deserted parking lots, some are usually vacant on Sundays and since there's no one there there is no one to hit you You'll never know how exactly your brakes will work unless you try them. Don't try a 100% stop the first time, gradually stop quicker over a period of say a half hour, give the brakes some time to cool too, they don't respond the same hot. Eventually you'll be amazed at just how quick you can stop and safely. Learning this when it's a real emergency is really lousy timing

Bill H.

[Bear]

I missed this thread first time around. I guess I wasn't reading the safety forum 'before' I had an accident. But I am really curious how your bike fared glowguy. Did you get it checked out? Are you still riding it?

I'll admit after my one little accident I'm kind of questioning the overall safety of 2 wheels vs my f150 crewcab 17 mpg truck :-)

But reading your post about how frequently you've gone down . . . wow.

Anyway when you read this, let us know how you've been.

Thanks,

Bear

[motomech]

gusset said:

Hi Glowguy,

I'm glad you're in one piece, and that the gear has been able to do its job!

I have a question: do you use your front brake? I'm just wondering if braking technique might come into play. ie using the front brake, and squeezing the brakes somewhat gradually (building from zero to high force over about .5 - 1 seconds) to give the suspension time to settle the weight onto the front wheel, where most of your braking potential exists.

I do two "practice" emergency stops from about 25 or 30mph rather soon after leaving my driveway on my commute, to ingrain the habit of correct brake application, as well as to get a feel for how much rear brake is too much. I haven't yet had to perform a panic stop in actual riding, but my intent is that my reflexes will be trained so that if the time comes, I can avoid locking up the rear. Will I do it correctly, or will I panic, grab them too quickly, lock up the rear, and lowside? I can't honestly say; all I can do is try to build the habit.

Bingo! Kewpie Doll for Gusset.

It's all about the front brake.
Stat.s show that 80 to 90% of the two-wheeler weight is transfered to frt. tire during a panic stop.
Motorcycle road racers only use the rear brake to "load" the chassis and for some tight apex sliding.
I can pretty much stand a newer lightweight(hey, I'm getting old), disc-brake equipped motorcycle, on it's front tire. Not bragging, it's something I've practiced for decades(more for stupid motorcycle trick value than safety ).

Everyone needs to master this, old hands as a refresher, newbies to get it down. Not necessary to do a Brakie, but at least chirp the front tire. Of course, good gloves, helmet and jacket are recommended.
Now whether or not the front brake on your scoot has the braking power, I don't know. I doubt that any of the Japanese scooters of the '80's that I know well, could even lock the front brake at 30 m.p.h. The Loncin 125 that I rode for a year could, but it was not equipped with the phony ABS. If your scooter won't lock the front tire, we need to start talking about brake up-grades.

Rarely will the first reaction be avoidance(leaning the bike over). It should be speed reduction first, and if the situation permits, avoidance. It's one or the other for us meer mortals, only the best racers can do both at the same time and remain up-right.
The last resort is JUMP!
I have vaulted over two cars in the years I have been street riding and was not hurt either time(knock on wood ).

Now all this is well and good, but will you react correctly in panic situation?
Probably not, I've ridden and raced since the late '60's and the last time I had an "Oh sh!t" moment..............I slammed on the rear brake
Training oneself to instinctively bear down on the front brake in a panic situation is the single hardest thing to master in all the aspects of riding

But in my defense, riding an antique BMW does not reinforce relying on the front brake.

[griff10]

Locking the tire (stopping it from rolling) is "not" the ideal for braking, it takes longer to stop with the tire skidding than it does if it's still turning. It's also potentially dangerous on a bike, if you lock the front and you're lucky and get off the brake right away you "might" not drop the bike.
If you lock the rear you have no choice but the keep it locked until the bike has stopped or you'll "high side" where the bike regains traction and with the momentum you've then gained you keep moving ending on the ground, bad thing.

This is why the fake but usable ABS is installed, to prevent you from locking the tires. You do though need to learn to stop the bike as quickly as possible without locking the tires.

Bill H.

[motomech]

I am not advocating locking the frt. brk. in a panic stop.
What I am suggesting is, learning the control to brake right up to that point. And to know where that point is, one has to be able to skid the front tire for a brief second in practice conditions.

As for the ABS, perhaps it is a good thing for those who lack the skills to use the front brake really hard.
But I will take braking power and sensitivity over mush any day.

[griff10]

With true ABS, our scoots do not have this, you can do things you'd never even think about doing with a cycle and brakes, like being leaned way over in a turn and jumping on the brakes. With conventional brakes this will get you hurt, or worse, with ABS you slow safely. Or doing panic stops on slick pavement in the rain, safe with ABS, dangerous without.

Some ABS systems are truly excellent, some are less than perfect, all will allow better safety in marginal conditions.

Yes, in good conditions with a skilled rider non-ABS brakes can be excellent, it's when the conditions go down hill that ABS helps.

Bill H.

[Bear]

I suppose were drifting a little off topic concentrating on the merits of ABS, but . . .

When I was looking for what bike to buy last fall. I read everything I could and asked questions of everyone I thought might know something. On the short list for bikes, I was considering a Burgman or a Burgman Executive (which has ABS). In the end, I decided to save my money on go much cheaper.

But when I took the Basic Rider's Course I questioned my instructors about Burgman and specifically about ABS. The assistant instructor quickly answered with a strong level of disdain. "All ABS does is allow someone to hide that really don't know how to stop their bike properly!". He continued to mouth off on the topic and how useless it was, but that sentence really stuck in my mind. WTF!

I just don't understand that attitude. I do understand what he means by it. I've been driving 4 wheeled vehicles in snow most winters of my life, and I know what locking the wheels does then. I had to learn how to tap the brakes. And I believe that I have pretty good control over my emergency braking in my cage too.

When my daughter comes of age I will make sure that the vehicle she drives WILL have ABS. Because I don't want her to get bit by that learning curve. I'm fine with her hiding her lack of skill with ABS.

Now when it comes to 2 wheeling. ABS can be so much more valuable. Look at the Original poster of this thread. We still have not heard back from him. It sound like he MIGHT have a problem with his bike. But it might be that he locked up his front wheel. Lets put him on a Silverwing with ABS or a Burgman Executive and lets put him in that same scenario (the last one) where he was on the highway and the traffic slowed down suddenly. Maybe the ABS would have kept him up, and maybe he would have been blissfully unaware that he had pulled those front brakes too hard too fast.

Sorry for the soap box. It was 6 months ago that I took the BRC and I'm still annoyed by the arrogant attitude of that instructor. He just acted like ABS was nothing more than the short bus for stupid people.

Bear

[Dennis D]

Apr 21, 2008 9:00:58 GMT -5 Bear said:

It was 6 months ago that I took the BRC and I'm still annoyed by the arrogant attitude of that instructor. He just acted like ABS was nothing more than the short bus for stupid people.

Bear

I had a similar experience when I took the MSF ERC course... put on by ABATE at most Indiana sites. Very uninformed, one instructor said that headlight modulators were useless, and both thought they might be illegal. One of them advocated the "Loud Pipes save lives" line, and the other one(a woman) told all the people on little tiddler bikes 600cc and under, that once they got learned to safely operate them more proficiently, they should start sitting on and comparing the "real" bikes... 1200cc and up, so when they realized they had outgrown their learner machine, they would be able to make a better choice, instead of a spur of the moment decision when they all of a sudden realized they were ready for a real motorcycle. The list goes on... If those two are typical of how ABATE members run a safety course, it's really sad.

[motomech]

<<<<......Look at the Original poster of this thread. We still have not heard back from him. It sound like he MIGHT have a problem with his bike. But it might be that he locked up his front wheel. >>>>

Actually, he tells us exactly what happened in all three insistences.

<<<<......When I hit THE BRAKE to slow up, I of course spilled it in a LOW SLIDE through the intersection......>>>>

"THE BRAKE" tells us he only used one and "LOW SLIDE" tells us it was the rear.

And,

<<<<<....I think the REAR WHEEL LOCKED UP and fishtailed a bit, but whatever happened I was on the ground very quickly....>>>>

And,

<<<<<......I feathered the brakes and went down again. I think the problem may be that the front suspension is dropping under braking force and the wheel is then twisting enough to throw me down. I don't really know. All I know is that under moderate braking conditions the scoot threw me to the ground before I had registered any problem going on....>>>>>

In the first instance, the light rain and, most likely, the oily, slippery road surface, combined with the "grease ball" O.E.M. tires that came on the his scoot, never gave him a chance.

But in the second two, I really feel that if he had practiced the techniques I out-lined in my post above, he could have stopped safely.
Yes, telescopic forks compress under hard front wheel braking, but unless the front wheel impacts something when the travel is already used up, the frt. whl. does not necessarily "twist". When he states that he, really doesn't know what happened, he reveals his inexperience.

<<<<<......Now when it comes to 2 wheeling. ABS can be so much more valuable.>>>>>

No doubt that the modern, sophisticated systems available on Japanese and German two-wheelers have merit. But in the context of this thread and, in general, this forum, we are talking about the systems that come on the Chinascoots. And while they might add a degree of safety to the inexperienced, they are a detriment to experienced riders. A poor compromise, I.M.O.
But at the rate that the Chinese machines are progressing, hopefully, they too will soon be equipped with effective ABS systems.

[Bear]

Apr 22, 2008 4:54:07 GMT -5 motomech said:

No doubt that the modern, sophisticated systems available on Japanese and German two-wheelers have merit. But in the context of this thread and, in general, this forum, we are talking about the systems that come on the Chinascoots. And while they might add a degree of safety to the inexperienced, they are a detriment to experienced riders. A poor compromise, I.M.O.
But at the rate that the Chinese machines are progressing, hopefully, they too will soon be equipped with effective ABS systems.

I totally agree. The more sophisticated ABS systems was what I meant. And you are correct that the scootdawg forum is more centered on china scoots. There are plenty of others here to, but few could argue that the scootdawg is THE place to go to figure out your new china scoot

And I think your assessment of his braking is probably accurate. But I do think he needs to get that bike checked out.


Dennis D,

At least with my class both instructors were not idiots. The younger one (the one who mouthed off about ABS) he would totally jive with the attitude that anything under 1200 was a 'training bike'. But the older instructor (and I believe owner of the school) he was much cooler. His general attitude was if it's on 2 wheels and growls, then grin

I asked him about ABS, and he said it was great. Why not have it. I tried hard to pit one instructor against another, but they would not bite. I couldn't get them to argue about ABS, or even to comment on each other.

Bear

[vonspyder]

Heh I know how that part of I-20 gets, could have been alot worse glad you made it more or less in one peice.

[motomech]

Good sentiment,
We(I) tend to forget the people element and focus on the machinery.
I actually shouldn't be refering to Glowguy in the third person, but he hasn't been back since this thread started in early Dec.

Kind of makes you wonder why a person(there, I'm doing it again) would bother to post a long(ish) and thought provoking post and never come back?
Maybe he sold that damn scooter.

[pghays]

A riding safety tip.

I don’t think that the problem that is putting our scooter friends down is a problem with the brakes or the scoots suspension system, like everyone is talking about. There is another real nasty gotch ya with riding these CVT (Constantly Variable Transmission) type scooters as opposed to riding a motorcycle with a manual clutch. The problem is the scooter is always in gear and there is almost always either acceleration or deceleration loads on the rear wheel. On my Linhai 300 the deceleration gear down with the throttle closed is so great that normal braking is almost unnecessary until the scoot gets to fairly low speed. It is so great that I’ve thought of changing the variator weights so it will gear down more slowly forcing me to use some braking so the brake lights will come on to let other drivers know I’m stopping. I am trying to learn to make a habit of riding the throttle down more slowly while lightly braking to make sure brake lights are on when stopping.

It seems to me that when the throttle is closed for a panic stop the rear wheel will easily loose its traction and start to slide if only a little rear brake is applied. If the surface is slick it will do so with no brake applied. On a loose surface like a little gravel on pavement, closing the throttle can easily cause the back wheel to break loose without the brakes applied. This all happens because the transmission gears its self down when you close the throttle. On a motorcycle you have a clutch that takes the engine’s compression out of the loop when you need to. Hard stopping on a motorcycle is almost all done with the front brake and a little stability braking added from the rear with the clutch disengaged. Unfortunately there is no clutch on these scoots and the transmission gears down hard when the throttle is closed.

A fix for this would be a spring clutch on the rear axle that would let the scoot free-wheel when it is not receiving drive torque from the engine. It would make the scoot much safer to ride.

Another sad fact that contributes to the problem is that manufactures are installing racing tires that have almost no tread, on these scooters. These tires are great for race track driving and are simply dangerous as hell for normal everyday use. This is especially true when used with a CVT drive system.

Please keep this in mind and be careful.

Scootncoot

[harrywr2]

I just got my new scoot with ABS breaks. It seems to respond someone differently than Non-ABS...I end up with a more level stopping experience. I also hear what sounds like a solenoid in a normal stop. Is this normal?

[griff10]

Jul 3, 2008 3:51:39 GMT -5 @pghays said:

A riding safety tip.

I don’t think that the problem that is putting our scooter friends down is a problem with the brakes or the scoots suspension system, like everyone is talking about. There is another real nasty gotch ya with riding these CVT (Constantly Variable Transmission) type scooters as opposed to riding a motorcycle with a manual clutch. The problem is the scooter is always in gear and there is almost always either acceleration or deceleration loads on the rear wheel. On my Linhai 300 the deceleration gear down with the throttle closed is so great that normal braking is almost unnecessary until the scoot gets to fairly low speed. It is so great that I’ve thought of changing the variator weights so it will gear down more slowly forcing me to use some braking so the brake lights will come on to let other drivers know I’m stopping. I am trying to learn to make a habit of riding the throttle down more slowly while lightly braking to make sure brake lights are on when stopping.

It seems to me that when the throttle is closed for a panic stop the rear wheel will easily loose its traction and start to slide if only a little rear brake is applied. If the surface is slick it will do so with no brake applied. On a loose surface like a little gravel on pavement, closing the throttle can easily cause the back wheel to break loose without the brakes applied. This all happens because the transmission gears its self down when you close the throttle. On a motorcycle you have a clutch that takes the engine’s compression out of the loop when you need to. Hard stopping on a motorcycle is almost all done with the front brake and a little stability braking added from the rear with the clutch disengaged. Unfortunately there is no clutch on these scoots and the transmission gears down hard when the throttle is closed.

A fix for this would be a spring clutch on the rear axle that would let the scoot free-wheel when it is not receiving drive torque from the engine. It would make the scoot much safer to ride.

Another sad fact that contributes to the problem is that manufactures are installing racing tires that have almost no tread, on these scooters. These tires are great for race track driving and are simply dangerous as hell for normal everyday use. This is especially true when used with a CVT drive system.

Please keep this in mind and be careful.

Scootncoot

Um....scooters do have a clutch, centrifugal one, otherwise you couldn't start nor stop.

Take a look at motorcycle tires, the tread patterns on most scooters is very similiar to modern motorcycle tires. The quality with OEM tires is never wonderful scooter or motorcycle, best to upgrade when you can to brand name tires, the sparse tread will remain btw.

Bill H.

[griff10]

Jul 20, 2008 10:56:22 GMT -5 harrywr2 said:

I just got my new scoot with ABS breaks. It seems to respond someone differently than Non-ABS...I end up with a more level stopping experience. I also hear what sounds like a solenoid in a normal stop. Is this normal?

It's not ABS, it's just a sticker that says ABS. It's a valve that limits the amount of fluid going to the brake, which is why it feels different. With these tiny tires and very light overall weight you have to be careful with how much braking you apply to the wheels, easy to apply too much and break them free (skid).

Bill H.

[phaze]

hes better off on the three wheeler. he needs to learn to drive a bike first. back brakes will get you everytime, if you do lock it up you only have a second to unlock it. brace your arms hold front brake steady and engage rear if you are gonna hit bail bail bail.

i think these should be sold in pairs that way you can have a learner scoot?

[bike4miles]

It sounds to me like you may be depending on the rear brake a little too much and once the rear looses traction, the scoot goes down. In a panic stop, the front end is forced toward the ground giving more gront traction and less rear traction making the rear wheel with little traction to spair. Thanks for sharing your experiences and stay safe out there!

[pghays]

Hi griff10

Oops. I thought that the fact that these scoots have a centrifugal clutch was self evident. Sorry folks. The spring clutch I mentioned to allow free wheeling on a scoot would be an addition to the current centrifugal clutch system.

The point I was trying to make was that; being able to manually disengage a clutch or having one that disengages on its own when drive torque is not being applied while stopping quickly or closing the throttle to slow down in a turn, is a safety feature. Removing deceleration torque from the rear wheel under these conditions can prevent the it from developing excessive braking that will cause it to loose traction and go into a skid.

My 1958 Cushman Eagle scooter had a centrifugal clutch. It also had a foot operated clutch pedal to disengage or engage the clutch if desired, when the engine’s rpm was high enough for the centrifugal clutch to be engaged. This manual control of the centrifugal clutch was required because the scoot had a 2 speed manual transmission that was hand shifted. The manual control of its centrifugal clutch made it much easier to control and safer to ride in turns and when stopping. Just like a motorcycle.

Oops; I did it again. I did not mean to imply that motorcycles have centrifugal clutches or that modern motorcycle clutches are foot operated.

Scootncoot