Practice Panic stops!!

[Aaron]

It's a good idea to practice emergency braking from time to time. Especially important when you get a new scoot, new tires, new brakes, etc. We got a 94 Jeep Grand Cherokee this weekend and I drove it for the first time tonight. It was raining and a car pulled right out in front of me.. Even with Abs I got sideways bad..... Prompted me to post this. Find a nice empty parking lot and get some speed up and pratice stopping. get a feel for the front and rear brake. Explore the lockup point of the rear brake(carefully). get used to how the scooter reacts and it capability. This can add confidence to your daily commute and may keep from severe road rash. Also practice avoiding obstacles. It's human nature to steer toward what your staring at. Put a piece of cardboard or something down in your practice area and pratice reacting to it. Just think about what your doing and what the scooter does in response. Counter steering is something that is taught in MSF courses. You do this without thinking normally but in a panic situation you can screw up! Counter steering is basically the fact that you have to move the bars slightly in the direction of the trouble to lean the scoot away before turning the bars to follow the direction of the lean. Practice swerving and consiously think about what your doing with the handlebars to make the scoot lean in the direction you want to go.. Failure to counter steer in an emergency can actually lean the scoot into the danger and get you hurt!! Just practice and look and see if you notice it. Take the safety course and be safe out there. You may have the right of way but Physics could care less about you and your cute little scooter ;D
Aaron

[ooopseyesharted]

excellent advice. you never know whats gonna come at you out there.
i am living proof of that.

[Dennis D]

For those with a new scoot, if you're a beginning rider, or just getting back on two wheels after a long hiatus, begin the braking practice at low speeds. Get up to 15-20 mph and brake hard with both front and rear brake. If you want to be able to avoid accidents by braking, always use both brakes... and never brake with the rear wheel only. The rear wheel can only do around 30% of the braking as opposed to 70% front. And hard rear wheel braking only will just about guarantee a slide.

Beginning braking practice at 15-20mph, your rear wheel probably won't slide, but you'll begin getting a feel for your bike under hard braking. When you have no problems braking as hard as you can and stopping in a straight line, begin upping your speed by 2-3 mph at a time and practice braking. As your speed gets higher, the tendency for your back wheel to slide with hard braking will increase. If it begins to slide.... maintain pressure on the rear brake lever and squeeze harder. DO NOT release the back brake after the wheel starts to slide. Because of sliding, the back wheel will start to get a bit sideways on account of a sliding back wheel isn't as effective for stopping as the front wheel can pull you down from the speed you were going. If you release the back brake after it begins to slide, it can regain traction and throw your scoot right over, resulting in what's called a "high side" accident, so just keep holding the rear brake and going as straight as possible.

Correcting for a slide is one place that knowing about counter steering can come in handy, because if your first reaction is to steer into the direction the back wheel is sliding, you'll end up laying the bike down. If the rear wheel is sliding out to the left, you won't want to immediately steer to the left, as when correcting a skid in a four wheeler, but VERY SLIGHTLY turn the handlebar to the right... which will put the contact patch of the front tire on the left side of the tire, resulting in turning the front to the left. As soon as the bike changes attitude you immediately straighten the front wheel back straight or even a bit to the left to maintain as straight a line as possible.

ADDED BY EDIT: Probably NOT A GOOD IDEA to try steering corrections while braking until you're very sure how your scoot responds to very hard braking and you're sure it responds the same way every time. On my current scoot, I can make little steering corrections while braking.... possibly due to the brake modulator of the "ABS" it is equipped with(not a true ABS... more of a pressure regulator, I think). If you have a scoot that tends to lift the back wheel under heavy braking at higher speeds, or if you're running such high air pressure in your tires that both tires begin to slide, trying to make steering corrections while braking is absolutely NOT ADVISABLE! If you get into a full blown slide, the only thing you can do is ride it out and if you've scrubbed off enough speed, use your foot on the low side to keep from laying your scoot down. All the possible variables in what could happen while braking a scooter or motorcycle are what makes it important to practice panic stops, starting at low speeds, working up to higher speeds gradually to avoid nasty surprises. Just be sure to brake really hard as you certainly would if your life depended on it, or you still won't know what to expect in a real panic stop. And when you have confidence in how your scooter behaves while braking, go out and try it during or right after a rain in a wet parking lot, but start at low speeds all over again.


Another reason for beginning at lower speeds is that it's better learn to brake hard and in a controlled manner at lower speeds because there is also a tendency for vehicles with a short wheelbase like many scooters have, to lift the back wheel on braking, which in extreme cases at higher speeds can result in an end over end. All of the above is why you don't just want to go out and see what a panic stop from 40 mph feels like before working up to it. If you get into a bad slide you could end up laying the bike down, and regardless of what you may have heard about laying a bike to avoid an accident.... I call it having an accident. And a high side is even worse... you usually end up tumbling instead of sliding. During practice, brake hard enough for your back wheel to begin to slide, just as Aaron said, and during subsequent practice try to brake just short of that point, but if the back wheel starts to slide, by all means let it! Likewise, if at any point you notice the tendency to lift the back wheel, learn to apply the brake hard, applying only as much brake as you can, still keeping both wheels on the ground. Learning what go on at different speeds and circumstances, and maintaining control of your scoot should be the goal of all such exercises. It's much better if you learn what your limits and your scooter's are before you end up in a situation where you'll learn the hard way.

[surfborg]

I think somebody is going to have to draw me a picture to visualize this.

[Dennis D]

You mean the countersteering? We all do it, we have to, to get the things leaned over for going briskly around a corner. Only time countersteering for a corner isn't necessary is when going verrry slo-ww-lll-y. The countersteering is really a very small and subtle movement that initiates the lean into a corner. The thing is, in a panic type situation it's so easy to suddenly do the wrong thing, so it's good to understand how it works, mostly to know what not to do. Don't dwell on it too hard, it'll drive you nuts trying to analyze your every movement. Mainly need to know it just to recognize that there are some situations we can't deal with on a two wheeler, the same as if we were in a similiar situation with a four wheeler.

[Dennis D]

I edited the long post on how to practice panic stops, after thinking about differences in two wheelers I have owned and ridden, and even the differences tire air pressures can make. If you intend to practice hard braking and you read yesterday's post before I added the "ADDED BY EDIT" section, go back and re-read it before heading to the parking lot.

[hoove]

Y'all are right, can never get enough practice. Locked up the front brake on my scooter on the downslope of my gravel driveway the other day, laid it over. Been in and out that driveway so often, it was just more loose than normal. Get all the safe practice you can.

[fulltimerart]

Right-on guys---practice as much as you can cause you never know when the unexpected will happen. Several years ago I had to put a full size Cadillac in a broadslide on a 2 lane road cause someone pulled out of a side-street right in front of me and I sure didnt want to hit her or the puckerbrush. Like the saying, practice makes perfect---even if you practice at low speeds you will still know what you and your scoot can do when the need arises.

[fangerman]

As soon as I get my scooter back from the mechanic, I will be hitting the nearest school parking lot for several hours of evasive driving and panic stop practice. I thought I was pretty good at it, until yesterday and I find myself kissing the right side of a Honda Accord that turned left in front of me without bothering to look or signal.
"Luck favors the prepared."
Ride safe.

[I cant think of a name yet]

Woot my first post on the forums... I popped my cherry..lol

I know this is an old post but its always good to update anyway

What Denis D was trying to explain w/ counter steer (which i JUST now understand) is that unlike a car, where you steer in the direction of the slide to avoid the rear end ending up in front of you, a 2 wheel rider must actually steer slightly in the opposite direction of the rear end slide. This is more for balance!

Try this: Sit on your scoot and turn the front wheel all the way to the left, feel how easy it is to drop the bike in the right side! Now think about that in motion, if the rear slides to the left and you steer left it becomes incredibly easy (and enevitable) for the bike to fall to the right.

The scoot is most stable when the front and rear tires are aligned, any time the the wheels are not in a straight line you loose some balace to the opposite side, more as the degree of the angle is increased.

By counter steering to the opposite way of the slide you maintain less of an angle from your front tire to your rear therefor increasing stability and reducing the tendency of the scoot to drop.

Another test, try sittin on your scoot with wheels straight and pick up ur feet.. now turn the wheel right... the scoot will want to fall in the opposite direction (left) of the way you are turning..So as the scoot starts to fall left you turn left in an attempt to get those wheels straight and you WILL over compensate (ie, entering the slide w/ rear tire locked and sliding to the left)and the scoot will want to fall to the right now so you steer right to regain your balance (ie. counter steeringing in the opposite direction of the sliding rear wheel).

FYI, i just took my permit test today and every question regarding this issue i got wrong and i did not understand why till now when Dennis explained it. I have been riding Quads for a long time, dirtbikes for a bit and mucked around on steet bikes a few times, when i was a kid i raced BMX bikes and i always knew how to perform evasive manuvers based on experience but never really gave it thought, i just "Felt" what i needed to do to keep control (or as much as possible). I learned to balance by sitting on my bike and trying to keep balance w/o moving forward. This taught me how to react to a slide w/o even knowing it and it was never explained to me that it would do so. Now after reading Dennis' comments i actually understand why what i have always done was correst and why it actually saved my butt back then.

And, just for the record, the child in my has emerged and i just ordered a Strada RX200 HP this morning from a local "Brick and Morter" Dealer. I always loved scoots but my parents would not let me have one b/c of age/licence issues and when i was legaly able to opperate a scoot i was also just about of age to drive a car and in NYC a scoot was not really the best option at the time. So now i live in Tampa, FL and i'm 31 and finally getting my scoot...lol

After 2 weeks of researching a scoot i finally made a decision and today, I have read just about every post on scootdawg! I have finally found a site that has a post earlier then Aug, 2006..lol.. I think i am going to sign up for this forum later b/c i feel that i would be welcome here..

happy scootin!!

[Aaron]

Congrats on the scoot and you will be welcome here! Look forward to meeting you "mystery guest" LOL

Aaron