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Post by luciano136 on Aug 15, 2007 10:40:47 GMT -5
Recently changed the gear oil. I did notice I couldn't tighten the 'refill' bolt properly. Sure enough, it allows most gear oil to seep out and run dry - I could hear a metal noise when starting up this morning, so I parked it and took the car.
Anyway:
* Does anyone exactly know what type bolt this is (will try to find a replacement at Osh)
* What are the torque specs? (Does anyone also know them for the drain bolt?)
Bummed I can't take the Scoot; too hot for a car lately...
Thanks!!
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Post by Jacine on Aug 15, 2007 11:48:54 GMT -5
Is the bolt stripped or is it the base stripped?
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 15, 2007 12:13:31 GMT -5
Is the bolt stripped or is it the base stripped? Well, I'm not positive. The bolt looks a little worn but hopefully the base isn't stripped or that will be a pain to fix... That's why I thought I'll try a new bolt and see what happens... |
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Post by Glennby on Aug 15, 2007 12:43:37 GMT -5
hopfully you can just replace it, also if you have access to a tap,just chase the threads.use a metric tap. i'm not sure but i think it's an 8 or a 10.  Glennby. |
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Post by scooterollie on Aug 15, 2007 13:53:42 GMT -5
The hole where the bolt threads into is most likely aluminum and the bolt is steel. Guess which one usually strips first! Check the threads in the hole very carefully. If they are messed up, you may very carefully try to re-trace the threads with a metric tap the same size as your bolt (take the bolt to a store that sells tools). Most likely, though, you have stripped the threads in the case and will need to run a tap in the hole that is one size larger, then use a bolt and washer to match. A good auto parts store staffed by folks who know their business should be able to help you. Don't have torque specs for that bolt but obviously you need to be careful how hard you tighten it. Could be it was stripped during assembly.
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 15, 2007 14:05:37 GMT -5
Crap, probably the thread in the case is bad then. The first time I replaced the gear oil, the bolt wouldn't fit properly either and I had to re-install it without the washer. Guess it was bad from the start as the other bolts in the aluminum case all seem fine...
Wonder if a bolt that's slightly longer would hold up?
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Post by monty57 on Aug 15, 2007 15:06:59 GMT -5
I hope I am not stating the obvious here but be very careful while doing any of these steps to not get metal shavings into the gear case. I not sure of a good way to totally prevent this but when I have worked on aluminum engine in the past I have coated the tap with heavy grease and use a vacuum near the hole to catch as much as possible. At any rate I would change the fluid several time after the repair just to be sure.
Good Luck!
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Post by blackc on Aug 15, 2007 16:55:40 GMT -5
I had the same experience.
Check the brass washer. The hole the bolt goes into is larger than the washer. When the bolt is tightened it deforms the brass washer slightly into the hole. When the washer is used over again it must go on exactly the same as when it came off, an impossibility. The deformation of the washer causes it to leak and no amount of tightening is going to correct the problem.
Either use a new washer every time you change the gear oil or fix the deformation. I polished the washer on emery cloth to make it smooth again the first time. Then I went and bought supply of brass washers for the future.
As it is, no amount of torqueing down the bolt is going to do other than ruin the bolt or the case.
Good Luck
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 15, 2007 17:07:23 GMT -5
I had the same experience. Check the brass washer. The hole the bolt goes into is larger than the washer. When the bolt is tightened it deforms the brass washer slightly into the hole. When the washer is used over again it must go on exactly the same as when it came off, an impossibility. The deformation of the washer causes it to leak and no amount of tightening is going to correct the problem. Either use a new washer every time you change the gear oil or fix the deformation. I polished the washer on emery cloth to make it smooth again the first time. Then I went and bought supply of brass washers for the future. As it is, no amount of torqueing down the bolt is going to do other than ruin the bolt or the case. Good Luck Thanks so much for the info!! I'll get some washers tonight. What you say makes perfect sense as re-using the washer the first time indeed did not work... Do you know the size for the washers? Then I could just stop at the store on my way home... |
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Post by scooterollie on Aug 15, 2007 19:15:41 GMT -5
You may have to take the bolt with you. I have also seen synthetic (nylon?) washers on oil drain bolts but wouldn't want to use one unless I knew it would take the heat.
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alauda
New Puppy Dawg
Posts: 1
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Post by alauda on Aug 15, 2007 23:20:26 GMT -5
The specified torque values (from CFMOTO) are:
10mm Fill bolt 1.0-1.4 kg-m (7-10 ft-lbs.)
6mm Drain bolt 0.8-1.2 kg-m (6-9 ft-lbs)
These values may seem to be a little on the low side (especially the 10mm bolt) but that is probably to prevent the very scenario that you are facing. Also the sealing washers are made of "soft" copper not brass. Brass is considerably harder/less maleable than copper and also more susceptable to stress cracking. So get the "soft" copper ones if you can; a good fastener supplier should have just what you need.
Take care,
Alauda
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 16, 2007 0:01:57 GMT -5
Ok, I managed to refill it again, tighten everything with a new bolt and some washers (long story). No leak, all sounds good.
It probably took me about an hour to put the $#@! CVT cover on!! Oh my God, I'm so annoyed!!!
Anyway, cover is on, I start the scoot and it sounds loud again?! It sounds like there's no insulation orso. What else could cause this? It looks like it must have something to do with the cover?!
On of those nights you feel like throwing the chinascoot over the fence...
Does anyone have any other idea's?
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Post by scooterollie on Aug 16, 2007 8:16:21 GMT -5
Not certain what you mean by "sounds loud again". Do you mean gear noise? If so, perhaps you did run for a time w/o gear oil and did some damage to the final drive gears. Can you better describe the noise and when it occurs? On throttle, when you let off the throttle and coast? All the time, no matter what you are doing with the throttle?
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 16, 2007 10:40:00 GMT -5
Well, when I started the scoot wednesday morning, the gear box seemed to make more noise than usual, so I just parked it. I thought the cause was low or no gear oil because of the leak. Wed night I drained the oil again (there's was actually quite a bit left as the leak only occurred at the refill hole) and I ran the scoot without the CVT cover. All sounded fine. Then I re-installed the cover and the gear box (at least I think it's the gear box) sounds loud again The noise occurs as soon as you start the scoot and is there all the time (idle and some throttle). So, again I turned it off and didn't ride it at all ... This morning some oil leaked out of the refill oil again as the Scoot is standing at an angle when parked but this has turned into a separate problem now... The noise is kind of hard to describe. It is exactly the same noise you would get from the back under normal conditions but now it's louder. Kind of like listening to a car's engine with the hood opened or closed. |
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Post by scooterollie on Aug 16, 2007 12:27:04 GMT -5
If the noise occurs while the scoot is standing still, it shouldn't be the drive gears. Inly when the RPMs go up and the clutch engages will the drive gears begin to turn.
Maybe someone else with more knowledge of the clutch, etc. can chime in.
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 16, 2007 12:48:11 GMT -5
Thanks for your input so far scooterollie! Tonight I will take off the cover again and see if the noise is still there. I thought maybe one of the long bolts is rubbing against something? But at idle none of the drive belts components are running, right?
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Post by Gary on Aug 16, 2007 12:55:35 GMT -5
I'm wondering if the problem couldn't be a bad seal of the CVT cover vent to the engine (The part with the little rectangular clamp.) I could never get that connection right and it would make noise (like an exhaust leak). I finally ditched the clamp and just seal the connection with black duct tape (I use Gorilla tape - you can get at Home Depot - really sticky stuff). This sems to work fine and is much easier and quieter.
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 16, 2007 13:04:10 GMT -5
I'm wondering if the problem couldn't be a bad seal of the CVT cover vent to the engine (The part with the little rectangular clamp.) You might be right on the money! I was wondering about that too as it's pretty much the only thing on the whole cover (besides maybe the bolts) that could change anything to noise level... |
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 16, 2007 14:25:54 GMT -5
On a separate note, does anyone know where to get bolts that are that short (gear oil refill)? I believe it's an M10 x 10 (or12). The shortest I could find at Osh was M10 x 20 (which is way too long). If I were to put in a bigger size, I don't know if I'll ever find a bolt that short!
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Post by Gary on Aug 16, 2007 15:06:18 GMT -5
With a vice and a hack saw (or dermel tool) you can make any bolt shorter .... But if you'd rather buy a bolt then try www.fastenal.com/web/home.exThey have brick and mortar stores lots of places. Gary |
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 16, 2007 16:15:35 GMT -5
With a vice and a hack saw (or dermel tool) you can make any bolt shorter .... But if you'd rather buy a bolt then try www.fastenal.com/web/home.exThey have brick and mortar stores lots of places. Gary Thanks for the link. I'll try to solve the 'noise' first. At least a small leak at the refill bolt shouldn't prevent me from riding it... Apparently overfilling the gear oil can cause leakage according to the manual... So I guess it's not totally unusual to have leakage at the refill bolt... (although mine definitely doesn't fit tight enough). |
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alauda
New Puppy Dawg
Posts: 1
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Post by alauda on Aug 17, 2007 10:36:39 GMT -5
If you want to get the "real deal" OEM parts then all you need to do is go to your local friendly official Honda dealer and request parts 11,12,15, and 16 from the list below (parts list 2007 Honda Helix CN250). Don't be surprised if they have to order them. Or if you wish to shop online then use the link below to go to the parts-finder page you need to order from to get the real OEM parts from a genuine Honda dealer. Just remember to tell them that you own a 2007 Honda Helix CN250 Scooter. We are a little concerned that you might have torn up the washer seating area on the aluminum casing when you installed the "Check Bolt" without using any washer, You may want to look at that area very carefully and smooth it up if needed or else nothing will properly seal the "Check Hole". The linked site has a nice parts finder feature with complete exploded diagrams of all of your engine/power train systems. We hope things start lookng up for you soon. www.hondaoflafayette.com/fiche_section_detail.asp * 01 TUBE, TRANS BTHR 11211-KS4-010 001 $5.71 * 02 COVER, TRANSMISSION 21300-KM1-040 001 $71.80 * 03 GASKET, TRANS CVR 21395-KS4-690 001 $15.36 * 04 SHAFT, DRIVE (14T) 23410-KS4-010 001 $62.60 * 05 COUNTERSHAFT (14T) 23421-KS4-000 001 $32.95 * 06 GEAR, COUNTER (37T) 23422-KM1-000 001 $40.82 * 07 SHAFT, FINAL 23431-KAB-000 001 $44.53 * 08 GEAR, FINAL (35T) 23432-KS4-000 001 $48.93 * 09 BOLT, FLANGE (8X39) 90021-KM1-000 003 $2.51 * 10 BOLT, FLANGE (8X27) 90022-KM1-000 002 $2.02 * 11 BOLT, FLANGE (6X32)
90023-KS4-000 002 $1.73
* 12 CHECK BOLT
90035-KZ1-000 001 $2.27
* 13 WASHER (14X32X1) 90411-KM1-000 001 $1.65 * 14 WASHER (14MM) 90454-350-000 001 $2.65 * 15 WASHER A (6MM)
90478-700-000 001 $0.55
* 16 WASHER (10.2MM)
90481-001-020 001 $1.40 Warm wishes, Alauda [glow=red,2,300] ><>[/glow] P.S. If you think the noise may be due to a poor fit between the CVT air intake filter housing and the CVT cover then check out the exploded diagram for the air cleaner section and notice that part 20 is a rubber seal to be used in conjunction with the band clamp, part 17.
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 17, 2007 10:57:43 GMT -5
Wow, thanks for the extended info Alauda! Appreciate it!
I will check this weekend to see if I can somehow still figure out a way to make it stop leaking.
On the upside, I'm pretty sure now the noise I was experiencing is indeed related to the rectangular vent hole Gary was referring to and not the gear box. Once I moved the cover around a bit, I could get rid of most of the noise; I took it off again and will re-install this weekend after figuring out the leak issue...
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alauda
New Puppy Dawg
Posts: 1
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Post by alauda on Aug 17, 2007 11:10:20 GMT -5
Hi again,
Check out our P.S. on our last post. It concerns your noise issue, but it looks like we missed each other by about 2 minutes.
Warm wishes,
Alauda [glow=red,2,300]><>[/glow]
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Post by scooterollie on Aug 17, 2007 12:56:22 GMT -5
Since our engines are "Thumpers" - one cylinder motors with perhaps not the best in vibration dampening, we may experience "harmonic vibrations" (which can producing noise) in the plastic or metal parts of the scoot at certain engine RPMs. If you can locate the "offending" part(s) and do something to secure it better, you might eliminate the problem.
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 18, 2007 20:04:32 GMT -5
Last night I was brainstorming how I could easily fix this gear oil leak. Not having the parts readily available to fix the thread on the case with a bigger size (nor finding that size bolt locally), I decided to try something else.
I refilled some gear oil and cleaned everything up. Then I put the original bolt back on using a new washer. I can't tighten it up to torque spec anymore (only hand tight), so I used some mild thread locker on the base of the bolt and washer (not on the thread itself).
I let the Scoot stand upright overnight to let it dry. Then this morning I put it on its regular stand to see if anything would seep out (that's what happened before). No leaks. Then I rode it around the block and let it idle for a while and everything seems to hold up. I'll check it again in the morning but I think the leak issue might be solved for now... We'll see if it holds up on longer rides ...
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 20, 2007 16:43:37 GMT -5
Rode to work today and it looks like the bolt is holding... Will check again for leaks before riding home tonight... Just wanted to give the update  |
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Post by Gary on Aug 20, 2007 17:56:45 GMT -5
Luciano -
I think you ought to consider this a temporary fix. No telling when the bolt will rattle loose.
For a permanent fix you should do as Oliie says: tap the hole one size larger and install a larger diameter bolt (and washer). You should be able to find a 12 mm tap at Sears (I think 12 mm is the next size up - bring your bolt). I'd guess the tap and handle should set you back no more than $20. The aluminum is soft and will tap easily.
Good luck.
Gary
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Post by luciano136 on Aug 20, 2007 18:08:07 GMT -5
Luciano - I think you ought to consider this a temporary fix. No telling when the bolt will rattle loose. For a permanent fix you should do as Oliie says: tap the hole one size larger and install a larger diameter bolt (and washer). You should be able to find a 12 mm tap at Sears (I think 12 mm is the next size up - bring your bolt). I'd guess the tap and handle should set you back no more than $20. The aluminum is soft and will tap easily. Good luck. Gary Hey Gary, I agree. I just wanted to ride the Scoot in the meantime. The next size up should be 11mm (currently at 10mm). I might find the tap at sears but it looks like I might have to order a bolt like that online; I can find a 11mm bolt easy but none of them are that short... |
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Post by Gary on Aug 21, 2007 10:10:45 GMT -5
Luciano,
11mm is not a 'common' size of metric bolt. The next common size up from 10 mm is 12mm. You should be able to find 12mm bolts in the length you need, or you can cut down a longer bolt.
Another alternative is to go to a US 1/2 inch bolt. That would be just a bit bigger than the 12mm metric. You'll find both the bolt and the tap at any hardware store. Use a fine thread (1/2-20) or even an extra-fine thread (1/2-28) if you can find both the bolt and the tap.
Gary
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