charging problems

[oldguy]

I have a new roketa bail 250 and all was fine till today and the battery was dead. charged the battery and checked voltage and it was ok, started engine and checked voltage and no charging. checked wire plugs and connectors and found nothing out of the ordinary. Any ideas?

[knorrtech]

I don't know if your running lights and side lights, back lights are always on when running but I found after troubleshooting the electrical end changing connectors and taking voltage in and out of the rectifier, that the bike just uses more than it charges. I have to battery tend and then carry a DuraPro zip start.

I am going to put the front lights on a switch to turn them off during the day. I have also changed the battery and purchased a new one. The current just is not there, it does get 13.6 but it just is not enough to make up the difference of what is spent. No problem yet found, no shorts and I had an electrician also look at everything. You many find something other then this for your bike, but it just may be the same issues as mine. - This is just more food for thought.

Good luck with it, hope you find your problem.

[Gary]

Oldguy -
I'm in the same boat. Charging system is definitely not putting out - at least nothing at the battery (Voltage reads 12.2 volts whether the scooter is running or not.) I've traced the wires as best I could but so far found nothing. Haven't checked or tried replacing the stator or voltage regulator - just recharging the battery every night until I find time to dig further. Actually, this work around is working just fine. My battery tender came with a plug I just leave permanently connected to the scooter, so i just plug it in each night. I also switched over to a Yuasa battery and carry the OEM battery as a spare. (The Yuasa seems to have plenty of staying power and I haven't had to use the backup yet). I also carry a set of Jet Ski/ATV jumper cables I got from Kragen. These are smaller than auto jumper cables and easily fit under the seat.

Hope this helps a little.
Gary

[oldguy]

Talked to the tech yesterday and he is sending a new voltage regulator. He said the charging system on these chinese scooters where pretty weak at best. I know that the stator is putting out because at idle the lights flicker in time with the engine idle and as soon as I rev the engine they bighten and become solid again. Hope this regulator helps. We'l let everyone know.

[Jacine]

It may be your battery. If it's the original chinese, they are lucky to last six months. Even a good battery in arizona only makes two years, car or otherwise. Even had a Yusa only last a year.

[luciano136]

What would be the best replacement battery to get? (172MM engine type).

Mine works fine now but it's always good to be prepared...

[Gary]

Many people on this forum more experienced than me recommend Yuasa batteries. I bought a YT12A-BS over the internet for my Viva. Same amp rating and size as the OEM battery. Cost was about $70 plus $13 shipping - you can proably do better than that. The battery seems to hold charge really well.

[monty57]

Guys and Gals,

"Batteries Plus" has batteries to fit almost all the Chinese scoots. They even had a true motorcycle type to fit my QMT 50. I needed all the battery I could get for this one as it is very cold natured and I try to start all my engines at least once a month through the winter to keep the fuel in system fresh. Most of them are about 40 bucks plus core exchange. Give a try.

[buckeyescoot]

Hi Everyone -

I am having the same problem with my Roketa Bali 250, purchased earlier this month, less then 30 days old. Charging the battery every night.

I have replaced the battery last week in attempt to fix the problem (charging every other night now) and have removed the covers and unwrapped the wiring harness in an attempt to hunt down the problem tracing from connector to connector.

Seen where others have checked the stator ( not sure what that is) or the volt rectifier. I will watch the forum to see what other are trying.

Unsure how to check the charging system. I have borrowed a volt meter so if someone can send me in the right direction I will give it a try.

Joe

[chuckklr98]

In the same boat with my tank 250. Changed the voltage regulator 4 times,stator and battery. Still not charging.

Stator puts out,but nothing at battery.

Gonna try replacing the ground wires. After that target practice for this piece of junk.

[A J]

In the same boat with my Viva 250.
Dealer frowns on me getting my fingers into the machine.
He will get another try at it this week.
Been charging the battery every day.

[buckeyescoot]

Hi All -

Had some interesting feed back over on the lights always on issue. Reference to a diode that may be wired backward which would keep the battery from charging ( and the lights always on)

I was just talking to our company electrician who is a motorcyclist and hi indicated that that could be an issue to look at based on what I told him.

I do not know if all the CN250 scooter clones have this diode or not. Something to look into or consider. I will keep everyone in the loop once I try reversing the leads to the diode later this week.

I will check back to both the posts to see if there is any different feedback before trying.

Joe

[oldguy]

Please let us know if you have any luck. I have yuasa battery and is holding a charge, it just is not charging when running

[buckeyescoot]

Oldguy -

I made the change to the wiring feeds on the diode that I shared with everyone over on the lights always on post. The switching of the wire feeds has so far resolved the lights always on on as soon as I connect up the battery.

I took a DC volt reading of the battery before my commute to work today, It is my plan to check it again when I get home to see if the scooter is now charging the battery.

I too have a battery that will hold a charge and I can get about one days ride (maybe three or four starts before the battery is too weak to start the scooter)

I will let everyone know if the wiring change on the diode helped the charging issues that I am having as well.

Joe

[buckeyescoot]

Gary -

Does your Viva 250 have one of these diodes mounted to the frame near the CDI and the Volt Rectifier also? This may be a fix for you also. Check back as I will post and update as soon as I know the results from todays test ride/commute to work.

Joe

[buckeyescoot]

Hi All -

Changing the leads on the Diode ( volt regulator I have been told) did not resolve the charging issue though it did resolve the lights always being on when I connected up the battery,

Tested the volts on the battery while the scooter was running. Getting 12.6 volts. Same measurement that I get when the scooter was off and testing the battery alone. A guy at the local auto supply store says I should see around 13 - 14 volts while the scooter is running if the charging system is working correct. Is that true with scooters and motorcycles? I do not know, learning from others as I go along.

Any other thoughts?

Joe.

[monty57]

You should see more than 12.6 but maybe not at idle. Do you notice the voltage changing if you rev the engine (on the center stand of course)?

[buckeyescoot]

Hi Monty57 -

What ever the battery reads with the scooter off, that what the battery reads with the scooter on, weather on idle or rev'd up a bit.

Purchase the Honda CN250 service manual to see if I can glean any help from the electrical section and there troubleshooting section.

I also need to recap on how to successfully check the resistance on the three leads from the stator and the two plugs on the regulator with a multimeter. Any ideas?

[fulltimerart]

The charging system has to put out more than the battery voltage to keep the batt. charged--an automotive system will put out 14.5 volts while charging. If the battery is real low it needs a good charge (from a battery charger) before being used because a vehicle charging system is not strong enough to recharge a real low battery. Art

[monty57]

Well, that definitely means you have a charging issue. What I don't understand is this is the one of the most common engines used in these scoots and only certain models have the problem. That tells me it is something in the wiring of those particular models (not very brilliant, I know, just trying to think out loud here). I would think there is some common denominator to the problem. In one of the previous posts someone said their rectifier was hooked up backward. In this case I wonder if this is what is burning out the stator. With all the minds on this site some one should be able to put together a simple step by step way to run through the whole system to find the problem. There was a couple of good starts but it has to be simple, plain English and maybe some diagrams.

Someone help these guys! No one should have to go around worrying about their battery!

[oldguy]

No luck in fixing my charging problem. My scoot will put out a charging voltage of 13.6 at the battery when cold but will not maintain putting out voltage. Battery is good (yuasa) and will hold a good charge.

[MLN]

oldguy said:

My scoot will put out a charging voltage of 13.6 at the battery when cold but will not maintain putting out voltage.

Maybe you have a broken winding in the stator and when the bike gets hot it causes it to open?

[Gary]

In a different thread AJ had a very good step by step procedure to check the charging system:

The stator output must be referenced to ground or the rectifiers in the regulator can't do their job of converting the AC from the stator to DC current, which is referenced to ground. IF after going through this testing procedure, you have voltage between the stator legs but not to ground, I would suspect an intermittent stator ground.

That two wire thing is a rectifier diode which lets the charging current pass through to the battery but isolates the lighting system from the battery so the lights are on only when the engine is running. I would check the voltage on each side of it when the battery is being charged and it is not getting charged.

DO NOT START THIS TESTING PROCEDURE WITH A DEAD BATTERY that you have jumped to start the scooter. Check your battery voltage at the battery terminals before you start the scooter. It should be a minimum of 12.6 volts with NOTHING turned ON.

The battery voltage should show up on one side of the diode and the other side should have a higher voltage from the charging system. The voltage difference should be no more than approx. 1 volt. The voltage drop across the diode will vary depending on the current flowing through it. There should be a minimum of 0.6 volts difference. If the difference is more than 1.3 volts it is probably defective.

If you have battery voltage on one side and nothing or a very low voltage on the other side of the diode, I would suspect the charging system. The next thing to check is the regulator. See if you have voltage coming out of it. About 13 to 15 volts DC.

If not, then see if you have voltage going into it. If it is defective, the input voltage may be AC rather than DC as the regulator has the rectifiers in it that convert the AC from the stator to DC. If you have AC going to the regulator and low output from it. I would check for a faulty ground first and then replace it if necessary.

If nothing is going into the regulator, check for stator output at the time when the battery is not being charged. You did mentioned you had stator output, but I don't know when you checked that; if it was charging the battery at the time or not.

I have a Viva250 and the dealer replaced the stator telling me that it was heat sensitive and would die when the engine got warm. I had a similar situation to yours.

You MAY have the same condition, but I would check each of the components as I have outlined here. If you have output from a component and that output is not showing up at the input to the next component, look for bad wiring connections between them.

I hope this helps. It may be a little less expensive than using the shotgun method of replacing parts. Replacing the stator can be quite time consuming.
If you have any questions, I am glad to answer them, if I can.
A J

Natefromogden also posted this info:

That said, for my GS850 Suzuki, the test for the stator is to disconnect the wire plug, run the engine and put a voltmeter across any 2 of the 3 wires coming out. There is 60+ volts between any 2 wires and you have to check each leg of the stator. That would be wires 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 2 to 1 and 2 to 3 and 3 to 1 and 3 to 2.

I think you can check the resitance across the three stator legs also, but I'm not certain of the values.

So, the next rainy day I'm going to roll up my sleeves and run voltage checks component by component from the battery back to the stator. Trouble is, it won't rain here agin till October .
Gary

[buckeyescoot]

Hey Gary ( and All)

Thanks for the feedback. I will give the above tests a try. I have learned a lot from this forum. I did not realize that the stator put out Volts AC. I have been checking everything with the DC setting on my multimeter. Go figure!

AJ's feed back on testing the regulator/rectifier and Nate's stator testing process is just what I was looking for. Hopefully this weekend but I need to check with my social coordinator ( my better half) if this weekend is open or not. It may be in two weeks, so I will keep charging nightly until I have a good block of time to tear into it again.

Quick question. I just purchased one of those quick non-contact wrap around multimeter's. Will using the wrap around feature on each of the stator feeds give me the same results as disconnecting the plug from the stator feeds and the volt regulator and putting the probes on one end from the stator across the contact points on the regulator or is that the only way to test lead 1 to 2, 1 to 3 and 2 to 3?

Joe

[buckeyescoot]

Hi Everyone -

Update on my saga. Received a replacement volt regulator/rectifier from All New Sports on Friday. Replaced it over the weekend. No difference in the volt DC reading across the battery terminals with the new regulator. Same volt DC reading or less the what the battery is when the scooter is off. II am requesting a stator assemble from Allnewsports.

I did do the test on the stator that Natefromogden originally posted that Gary copied in above ( Thanks Gary). The test results I got was 45 VAC, 43 VAC and 0 VAC. The info from AJ was also very helpful.

Stator replacement. Anything to watch out for? Any other tests I should try with the new volt regulator ( currently not on the scooter since I did not see a change in the charging voltage after replacing it with the original volt regulator)

Joe

[lubejob66]

Buckeyescoot,
I don't know if you have replaced it or just checked the voltage, but I had the same thing wrong with my MC-54 and replaced the rectifier diode, that attaches to the back of the bike and it fixed my charging problem.

[buckeyescoot]

Hey Lubejob66 -

That is the item I first had an issue with, the rectifier diode. I reversed the leads and the head lights/running lights always on even with the ignition switch off was resolved. Do you think it may be marginal since it was wired up wrong in the first place (an assumption as the light's on problem went away when I reversed the wires to the rectifier diode; a recommendation from the forum)

I am concerned that the AC voltage was lower then recommended on two of the stator feeds (in the 40s instead of 60s)and zero voltage AC on the third feed.

I am have a problem have the Internet dealer identifying the rectifier diode as a replaceable part under warranty since it is not on the wiring diagram for the Roketa Bali 250. However, if it is only $10.00 bucks plus shipping it may be worth the expense to try it and see.

Joe

[fangerman]

I am facing the same problem with my Avanti Upsilon 250 (similar to Tank and other clone scoots.) This morning at 4 am as I rode to work in the dark, the dash lights dimmed, then I lost the taillights and turn signals. It was idling pretty roughly early in my commute, but I didn't notice it when I rolled to a stop at work. When I tried to start it up on my way home, it wouldn't start. I took the battery out, checked the voltage and it read 11.6v. I charged it and reconnected the battery and it fired right up, but now I worry about getting stranded somewhere.

I am a novice at maintenance and have no idea what to look for regarding stator and other diodes, so if anyone really feels congenial and wants to be very specific for someone like me, I would appreciate the help.

[lubejob66]

Buckeyescoot,

Not sure it will fix your problem, but my charging system was not working, and my headlights worked like they should, but when I bought the new diode and hooked it up, it started to show a charge and has been working over 3 weeks now. I have a dealer/repair shop 2 miles from my house, they sell Avanti scooters and the owner/mechanic is very knowledgeable with these Chinese scooters and he told me that the diode not only controls the headlights but is like a voltage regulator itself and had me replace it and sure enough it worked.
So I hope this helps.

[buckeyescoot]

Hey Lubejob66 -

That sounds promising!! I was e-mailing my INTERNET dealer and he is going to send me both the stator and the rectifier diode so I can try those two items along with the new volt regulator all at he same time to see if I can get this problem resolved. 3 months of trial and error.

I have over 2600 miles so far so if I can get the charging system straightened out I will be a happy camper. ;D Charging the battery every night is not bad, but it would be great to venture out farther then work and back home in fear of being stranded with out battery power!

Hey fangerman -

Hang in there. There is a lot of good Guys and Gals here at the Dawgpound willing to share their experiences and lend a helping hand.

The one thing that helped me in addition to the forums is that I purchased the Honda Helix Service manual that Stan Jessup recommend. I understand it is posted on his web page for review now. www.oregonvintage.com.

I went out and looked at a picture of your Avanti Upsilon 250. Looks exactly like my Roketa Bali 250 and the Tank TT 250 DE. See if your manufacture has information on your scooter that show parts and how they come apart and go together. Roketa and Tank has some pretty good PDF that you can download to use as a reference for disassemble and reassembly.

For me, I had to remove the trunk, trunk frame, seat, handles, back skirt under the tail lights, the right skirt, the right side panel, the fuel tank cover and the right foot rest cover to get to the rectifier diode,the volt meter and the to the stator wires to do some testing. You may not have to go that far. All are located on the right hand side of scooter right above the engine oil fill along the frame.

It not bad after you take it apart the first time. Like a jigsaw puzzle with overlapping parts. Put your screws and nuts in a plastic bowl not to loose them and lay your scooter panels out in the order that you take them off the scooter. Takes about 30-45 minutes for me to get to this point. All metric, #10 and #12 sockets, plus a Philip's head screw driver.

I also had to use a needle-nose pliers to crimp the screw retaining clips to keep them on the body panels better for reassembly. I bought a few extra clips at the auto parts store in the trim area as I lost a few in the depths of the under panels that I could not fish out and did not want to remove to retrieve.

If you bought yours locally the dealer should test for you under warranty. For me, I am in Cincinnati, OH. My dealer is in Wichita KS; INTERNET purchase. So I do the testing, and they send me the needed parts under warranty. A slow process, but I can still ride 70 miles to work and back every day so I am OK with it for now until I can get if fixed.

Again, I have learned allot from the good folks here at Scootdawg.

Joe