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Post by banditms on Jun 6, 2007 19:13:15 GMT -5
So far, I do like the Linhai design better and I think in the long term, they will take over the scooter market in this class. One selling point used with these scooters is the larger rear wheel, but in reality, that's bogus since the OD of the 10" vs the 12" or 13" tires are virtually the same, but the larger rims use low profile tires. Stan Stan, I disagree with your position that the Linhai designed 257cc engines will take over the 250cc scooter class. While the engine design is probably better than the CF Moto 244cc version, it's way more expensive to buy. What that equates to is that a specific scooter model will have a price tag much higher if it mounts the 257cc, than the same scooter model would that has the 244cc engine. And you know as well as I do, 99 out of 100 importers are going to buy the cheapest bike they can find. It has nothing to do with better quality, power or size. In fact, I could see the Linhai 257cc engine model going away altogether if there are enough importers bringing in the 244cc versions with larger wheels... And that's another point I'd like to make. The 12" wheels and tires are not the same OD as the 10" wheels and tires. At least, not on my bikes. You are right in that there could be lower profile tires on the 12" wheels to make them the same OD as the 10" versions... but in my research (on my bikes), the 12" wheel uses a 4" tire, and the 10" wheel mounts a 3.5" tire. That means the OD on the 12" wheel and tire is 20" vs. only 17" on the 10" wheel. My scooters with a 13" wheel are a good example of what you are saying though. They mount a lower profile tire that is about 3" tall... so the OD on my 13" wheels is about 19" - shorter than the 12" wheel and tire combo... Once again, I have no idea what other online sellers are doing or claiming. They could easily be selling you a scooter and saying it has 13" wheels, but then forget to mention that it has 2" tall tires so it's only 17" on the OD. And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if some of them did... ( - ; Just my 2 cents... Thanks, Jim J... Bandit MotorSports |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 6, 2007 22:37:06 GMT -5
My comment was intended to point out that the Linhai is a better design, and that the thing that will drive the market is what the consumer buys. Now, I agree that if price is the only factor buyers follow, the Linhai will die, but if buyers use their head and demand better a quality design, the CFMoto will be gone in time. This would probably not be true for buggies since the vertical design fits the application better.
I have a brand new 10" replacement rear tire sitting in the shop with an uninflated height of 18.25". The 12" front tire on my TT250 has a 19.5" diameter and the 13" tires on my RR250 are 19" diameter. The point is, this is an insignificant difference, but it does sound good (sales hype) to say 13" is better than 10" because it will take bumps better, ride smoother (yada, yada). None of this would be true with a 1" diameter difference. In reality, the taller tire (not wheel) has more shock absorbing capability. As the quote you included said, I said they were "virtually the same" which is true.
The wheel diameter isn't measured from the outside of the lip, so you don't really want to try to measure the tire height and add it to the stated wheel size since it won't work out, which is why I used total diameter dimensions. Stan
Stan,
I disagree with your position that the Linhai designed 257cc engines will take over the 250cc scooter class. While the engine design is probably better than the CF Moto 244cc version, it's way more expensive to buy. What that equates to is that a specific scooter model will have a price tag much higher if it mounts the 257cc, than the same scooter model would that has the 244cc engine. And you know as well as I do, 99 out of 100 importers are going to buy the cheapest bike they can find. It has nothing to do with better quality, power or size. In fact, I could see the Linhai 257cc engine model going away altogether if there are enough importers bringing in the 244cc versions with larger wheels...
And that's another point I'd like to make. The 12" wheels and tires are not the same OD as the 10" wheels and tires. At least, not on my bikes. You are right in that there could be lower profile tires on the 12" wheels to make them the same OD as the 10" versions... but in my research (on my bikes), the 12" wheel uses a 4" tire, and the 10" wheel mounts a 3.5" tire. That means the OD on the 12" wheel and tire is 20" vs. only 17" on the 10" wheel. My scooters with a 13" wheel are a good example of what you are saying though. They mount a lower profile tire that is about 3" tall... so the OD on my 13" wheels is about 19" - shorter than the 12" wheel and tire combo...
Once again, I have no idea what other online sellers are doing or claiming. They could easily be selling you a scooter and saying it has 13" wheels, but then forget to mention that it has 2" tall tires so it's only 17" on the OD. And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if some of them did... ( - ;
Just my 2 cents...
Thanks, Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports
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Post by aristide1 on Jun 7, 2007 8:49:24 GMT -5
Stan; ...... I was told by one reputable dealer that the 300 was not going to be distributed by PSF again this year and would only be available while the supply lasts..... Is there any new news on this situation? Its rather ironic as some web sites that have the SS300 are touting it as a "new item". (well yes, new for them, but....) Concerns are more body parts availability, stuff unique to that model, than anything else. Reliability is fine and all, but no parts is no parts. |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 7, 2007 8:54:20 GMT -5
The Linhai engine design is very solid, and I'm confident that the importer (PSF) will be able to handle body parts even if they did drop the model, but I think you will see them around for some time yet. Paying a little more is often worth it and the problem with the Linhai is the CFMoto is cheaper to produce. If people go for the better engine, they will stick around, but if they don't sell simply because of pricing, they will disappear. Stan Stan; ...... I was told by one reputable dealer that the 300 was not going to be distributed by PSF again this year and would only be available while the supply lasts..... Is there any new news on this situation? Its rather ironic as some web sites that have the SS300 are touting it as a "new item". (well yes, new for them, but....) Concerns are more body parts availability, stuff unique to that model, than anything else. Reliability is fine and all, but no parts is no parts. |
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Post by aristide1 on Jun 7, 2007 14:39:45 GMT -5
Hey Stan,
Have you had an experience with on-line small engine repair courses?
Thanks
Aris
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Post by Andi on Jun 7, 2007 20:50:24 GMT -5
Stan,
When I looked around at the 250's, the reason I liked the Linhai engine better is because it seemed less crowded on the bike and more service accessible, also I figured it would have a little more power when comparing the specs (for what it's worth). I also read that in the original design at least, the Yamaha 250 was the better and stronger engine, so I hoped that it was similar in the clones.
I'm curious, what makes the Linhai more expensive to produce, and what makes the Linhai design better (by extension I guess better build and that may mean more expensive to build)?
I don't know about other buyers, but my main motivation for a Chinese bike was the price, but with that I still wanted to get some value for my money and preferred to spend a little extra for what seemed the better choice. If the Linhai engine proves to be the better design, even if it is a little more then the CF Moto engine, I'm still way ahead financially compared to the Japanese or Italian Scoots.
I really like the Kymco People 250, but paid less for both scoots I bought and this way it allowed my wife to join in the fun. Longevity may be part of the price equation (and I know the question has been raised before), I wonder for example how the Race 250 would compare to the Kymco 250. The Kymco is double the price, but would it have double the useful life span under equal conditions of use and service? Time will tell I guess.
Andi
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 7, 2007 21:04:59 GMT -5
Nope. I've been involved in mechanial repairs of some sort since the early 70's. Since the early 90's I have done vintage motorcycle restoration (or resurection if you prefer) of primarily the post WWII Indian motorcycles as a hobby. I also designed and manufactured numerous upgrade parts for them. A few years ago, I sold off all rights to the parts manufacturing, but I do still have a couple of Indian Chiefs sitting in the garage. This stuff is strictly a hobby for me and I never want it to become an ocupation. I provide parts only, and as many will tell you, I don't push them at all. I only started carrying parts because at the time, you either couldn't get them, or those that sold them had no idea what fit or worked. I like dissecting things from a very practical point of view and I don't like hype. Sometimes I will be fairly hard on a manufacturer, but this is mainly because they can do better when they want to. I also want everyone to MANAGE YOUR EXPECTATIONS (I know, you hear that from me a lot) when buying online Chinese scooters. My Dad bought a 1962 Toyopet (Toyota's previous name that was changed in about '64) and lots of folks laughed at the "beer can" cars. Who's laughing at them now? I point this out because the Chinese scooter is in it's infancy and I think you will see big things from them in time. We can all play a part in improving the product and the companies that work with the end users (like this forum) to get input and make a solid effort will reap the benefit from it. Stan Hey Stan, Have you had an experience with on-line small engine repair courses? Thanks Aris |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 7, 2007 21:11:16 GMT -5
Not having an RR250TLX would make that impossible, but I understand that Strada has some interest. Even then, you have to make some allowances because no two scooters are exactly the same between brands. The Racer is never going to be as smooth riding as the Touring style because of wheelbase and weight, but it has it's own advantages and appeal in things like power to weight. We'll see where it all leads. Stan I recently received a Road Runner Racer 250 and while preparing for a head to head comparison to the Tank 250, I decided I wanted to include a third scooter in the Touring class. Because the RR250 uses the Linhai clone 250 engine which is in the minority for the 250 engines, I'd like to add another Linhai clone powered scooter. That's a good idea as I think that the Tank touring does not compare to the RR250ZRX. In my opinion it is not a fair test for the Tank. These 2 bikes are not in the same class. What would be interesting is to compare the Tank touring to the 250TLX. Rony evosales.com |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 7, 2007 21:16:52 GMT -5
It would take some very careful measuring to be exact on the fit, but I'd say it is most likely possible to use the 12 or 13" wheel if the right profile tire is found. There is very little room, so the better plan would be an extended version of the CVT, but that is going to require some frame redesign and will cost a lot also. I understand there are already some scooters out with the CFMoto engine and the larger wheels, but I have not personally seen one. Stan So far, I do like the Linhai design better and I think in the long term, they will take over the scooter market in this class. One selling point used with these scooters is the larger rear wheel, but in reality, that's bogus since the OD of the 10" vs the 12" or 13" tires are virtually the same, but the larger rims use low profile tires. I'm not sure I understand this correctly. What is OD? I have asked the factory in 20 different manners if they can put a 12 or 13" rear wheel on the RR250TLX and got the same answer every time, this engine can't take a rear wheel larger than 10". Even when they told me that the engine used in the new Jonway Roadster is from the same manufacturer as the RR250TLX engine, they told me that this engine can't be adapted to the 250TLX. Any information that proves the contrary may be helpful. Rony evosales.com |
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