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Post by 90GTVert on May 19, 2007 8:52:15 GMT -5
I recently received a Road Runner Racer 250 and while preparing for a head to head comparison to the Tank 250, I decided I wanted to include a third scooter in the Touring class. Because the RR250 uses the Linhai clone 250 engine which is in the minority for the 250 engines, I'd like to add another Linhai clone powered scooter. There are a few brands commonly available that are virtual clones of the 90's Yamaha YP250 Majesty that was sold overseas, such as the Bandit UC250, Strada SS300, and there is a Jonway model that is very similar also. My question is, does anyone here have any particular interest in these larger displacement scooters? I have received several emails about them, but not having one makes answering questions a bit difficult since the engines are completely different than the CFMoto powered 250's. I don't particularly need to buy another scooter to have hanging around if the interest isn't sufficient. So far, I do like the Linhai design better and I think in the long term, they will take over the scooter market in this class. One selling point used with these scooters is the larger rear wheel, but in reality, that's bogus since the OD of the 10" vs the 12" or 13" tires are virtually the same, but the larger rims use low profile tires. Let me know what opinions are out there and whether it's worth investing the money in another scooter for this purpose. Also, if you think one brand will be better for the purpose than another, mention that too. Since I don't sell scooters, I don't have a "dog in the race" as far as brand goes. Actually, this would probably be more help to the scooter dealers than myself since I don't sell scooters and the parts market is very small for scooters with these engines right now. Stan
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Post by scooterollie on May 19, 2007 14:31:53 GMT -5
Stan; I, for one, have been interested in the Strada SS300 but I m not certain it would be worth your time and investment for a review since I was told by one reputable dealer that the 300 was not going to be distributed by PSF again this year and would only be available while the supply lasts. Price has come down a good bit but still around the $3K mark. Most people seem to want to spend + or - $2K. With slightly more weight, about 22 HP and a slightly longer wheelbase than the 250s, it should make for an interesting scoot. John Dikov says the quality is much better than the typical Tank/Roketa fare and that they were assembled by Linhai.
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Post by 90GTVert on May 19, 2007 22:58:56 GMT -5
That's a good bit of information. Actually, I have watched the Strada for some time now, and I have been intereseted in the lack of information and owner comments. I assumed it was due to the higher cost, but since they have dropped them to around $2,700, they are pretty close to the other 250's. But then again, if they aren't going to import them in the future, it doesn't seem worthwhile to buy one for a review. That's really unfortunate since the Linhai powered scooters are actually more impressive than the CFMoto from the power plant standpoint. Maybe I'll look at the Bandit, but I may also want to work with Jonway since they will be packaging under serveral brands. I'm not sure who makes Jim's (Bandit) scooters, but somehow JMStar sticks in my mind (could be wrong about that though). Stan
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Post by lewtwo on May 20, 2007 9:20:18 GMT -5
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Post by Aaron on May 20, 2007 11:59:23 GMT -5
Stan since Jim is in your neck of the woods maybe you could try out Jim's personal UC-250Z . Most of Jim's bikes are made by Thaizou Zongneng same as the Cadenza I am reviewing. Not sure on the 250 but Zongneng's homepage show's the 250 in that style. I've found Zongneng's build quality to be very good. Mine is just being a bit stubborn..possibly due to the rough ride it had getting here. Bandit is in Eugene, OR
Aaron
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Post by HPS MotorSports LLC on May 20, 2007 23:30:24 GMT -5
Linhai builds a good quality engine. The best tho in the 250 class are the Daelim S2-250 and the Kymco's.
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Post by monty57 on May 21, 2007 16:58:48 GMT -5
Stan,
I have owned many Yamaha products and I am very interested in the larger displacemnt 250 Yamaha clone engine. I found Bandits web site after I had already received my Roadrunner. I would still be very interested in how the larger engine will actually reflect in street performance and longevity when compared to CF Moto drive train. Therefore it would be great if you included his 250 Toruing in report.
Looking forward to your Thread!
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Post by Andi on May 21, 2007 19:08:37 GMT -5
Stan,
I have been interested in a scooter for a good while now, but the 150's were just not enough power for my purposes and I didn't really care for the touring models. I would consider the Kymco People 250 the ideal scooter for me, but at $4000.00 US its out of my reach at this point in time. The similar Italian options like Vespa, Gilera, Aprilia etc are even more out of my price range.
Then I came across the RoadRunner Race 250 and it seemed exactly what I was looking for, doing a bit of research and even talking to another owner personally I ended up buying one. I read your review with great interest and certainly look forward to more.
What turned me off the Touring models is the big bike feel, I wanted something nimble to zip around all over for errands, to beat traffic and still be able to keep up with highway flow. I'm sure on a long ride the touring model would be more comfortable, but that would be rare especially considering where I live.
The most common use of scooters would probably be commuting to work and errands, I personally think the 250cc engine size in the racer shell is the way to go. It offers the best of both worlds, the ease of handling similar to the 150, but with highway power. Looking at the traffic congestion down here and the price of gas going up everywhere (well except here for now, regular is still at less the $1.70 US a gallon), I think Scooters are going to become popular here yet. I've talked to a lot of people that would like to get a scooter simply to be able to beat the traffic, for that the 150's would have their place, but considering the distances most people have to travel to work and the fact that some of the ride has to be highway I think a 250 is the only choice. I would think as scooter sales evolve further more models like the Race 250's are going to become available and the Linhai engine seems a better fit for the Race shell.
I personally think it would be very interesting to see a comparison between a non-touring Kymco (or Vespa etc) and the RoadRunner, but that may just be the most difficult comparison to do.
I also think Aaron makes a good point, the Bandit Scoots have a good reputation, that would probably make for a good comparison.
Andi
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Post by lewtwo on May 21, 2007 21:46:16 GMT -5
Andi: Will the RoadRunner Race 250 actually hit the advertised 85MPH mark they advertise (yes .. I know it is a stupid question but I have to ask) ? >> What turned me off the Touring models is the big bike feel, I wanted something nimble to zip around all over for errands, to beat traffic and still be able to keep up with highway flow. I'm sure on a long ride the touring model would be more comfortable, but that would be rare especially considering where I live. << Exactly why I have the GT200. It is a shorter frame than the typical touring bikes (Although many people refer to it as a MaxiScoot). It is an absolute dream around town but only just OK on the highway. The handling is much better (at any speed) than my 150. I do not know if that is because of the better overall quality or slightly larger frame and weight of the Vespa. That gives me pause when considering a 250 in what by all accounts appears to be a 150 frame. If Stan was a tad closer I would be happy to loan the Vespa for a head to head comparison ... alas there are a few thousand intervening miles. I am really looking foward reading a RR 250 Race review. Stan: > does anyone here have any particular interest in these larger displacement scooters? < For myself the answer is yes. I have actually been looking hard at the Kymco P250, but the local dealer only stocks the PS250.
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Post by 90GTVert on May 21, 2007 23:18:13 GMT -5
I think you will find the Road Runner speedo is pretty optimistic, but I have not done any full speed runs with it. I seriously doubt it will hit 85 with a GPS.
I'm not particularly interested in doing a comparison of the Daelim or Kymco models against the much cheaper Chinese scooters because it's an apples to oranges comparison. I think the Kymco and Daelims are priced too close to the much better supported Japanese scooters to be what I would call a good value by comparison.
I have sent messages to Jim at Bandit and Alan at PSF (Strada) to see if either one is interested in participating. If not, I'll stick with the Racer, but I would prefer to add a Touring model since they tend to be sold at around 10:1 when compared with models that don't have a windshield (in the 150 versions).
Keep in mind that there is risk on the part of these sellers since I do not want a "donated" scooter, so I don't allow advance review or editing rights. I will buy the scooter at a discount, but if they donate the scooter it tends to slant things like the articles you see in motorcycle magazines, and I don't find those to be honest or helpful.
The things I am interested in have nothing to do with sales hype and gadgetry. I want to know about product support (diagrams, service manuals, parts supply, tech support, etc), and real world durability and quality. I don't care if they send a cheap CD player, or free helmet since these are all items I consider to be gadgetry and fluff, which do not add to the utility of the vehicle.
We'll see if either is willing to put their scooters up against the others without reservation.
BTW: The touring models are only about 5" longer in the wheelbase, and the handling is generally equal or superior to the shorter versions. There is no comparison in stability or ride between them. The shorter wheelbase is great in the city, but if you have some highway (lots of that in the west), the shorter models are pretty hard on you in wind. Stan
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Post by HPS MotorSports LLC on May 21, 2007 23:56:39 GMT -5
Stan... I dont know who gave you the info...but for instance... the Daelims are VERY well supported Scoots. I have sold about 75 of them in the past year and had ONE come bac as a result of a brake squeal!! The Jap OEMS offer 1(one) year warranties and the Daelim offers 2 year 24,000km. OR try doing the QLinks... In my opinion THE best supported non-OEM out there...
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Post by airnerd on May 22, 2007 0:10:16 GMT -5
Stan I am getting verry interested in the 250 size...and touring is what I like.
I LOVE the looks of the New Viva scooter (reflex clone???).
I will some how obtain a blue one.
The CF Moto "Fusion" is also a cool looking scoot...and it comes in Yellow!
I found out i like the trunk space and windsheilds...but the shape of the Viva is my style.
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Post by lewtwo on May 22, 2007 1:00:36 GMT -5
Stan... I dont know who gave you the info...but for instance... the Daelims are VERY well supported Scoots. I have sold about 75 of them in the past year and had ONE come bac as a result of a brake squeal!! The Jap OEMS offer 1(one) year warranties and the Daelim offers 2 year 24,000km. OR try doing the QLinks... In my opinion THE best supported non-OEM out there... One of the things to consider in support is the dealer network. The Japanese have been in the states a lot longer. Nearly everyone has a Honda/Yamaha/Susuki dealer in their back yard. The Kymco and Daelim may have good warranties and equipment but finding local factory authorized stocking dealer to resolve a problem can be more of a challenge. The Italians have the same problem after their 20 year absence from the US market.
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Post by 90GTVert on May 22, 2007 8:41:29 GMT -5
This was exactly my point. Not that there aren't several fine scooters, but to compare the dealer network support to the Japanese dealer network is just foolish to me. A lifetime warranty is worthless in my book if you had to haul the vehicle 50 or a hundred (or more in many cases) miles for repairs. This is why when the price of a model approaches the Japanese pricing, they simply fall off the radar in my book. I certainly have no problem with the higher end scooters, but in the west, even Vespa is poorly covered by dealers. I did look at the hypro site and I didn't find the warranty information that said this was 2 year parts and labor anywhere. But, since it does use the Linhai engine, feel free to talk with your distributor and if they want to participate, I will consider the S2. I have never had a response from Daelim in the past, so I doubt they will want to. I am also only looking for the Linhai powered engine model that is the clone of the Yamaha YP250 (several similar), so a CFMoto product would not be in the running for this. We'll see who wants to play........... Stan Stan... I dont know who gave you the info...but for instance... the Daelims are VERY well supported Scoots. I have sold about 75 of them in the past year and had ONE come bac as a result of a brake squeal!! The Jap OEMS offer 1(one) year warranties and the Daelim offers 2 year 24,000km. OR try doing the QLinks... In my opinion THE best supported non-OEM out there... One of the things to consider in support is the dealer network. The Japanese have been in the states a lot longer. Nearly everyone has a Honda/Yamaha/Susuki dealer in their back yard. The Kymco and Daelim may have good warranties and equipment but finding local factory authorized stocking dealer to resolve a problem can be more of a challenge. The Italians have the same problem after their 20 year absence from the US market.
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Post by Andi on May 22, 2007 19:40:31 GMT -5
Stan,
Did I read correctly in that the Daelim S2 uses the Linhai 250 engine? Same as in the Road Runner Race 250?
This is shaping up to be an interesting review, looking forward to it.
>>Will the RoadRunner Race 250 actually hit the advertised 85MPH mark they advertise (yes .. I know it is a stupid question but I have to ask) ?<<
I actually wondered the same myself, I've not read a GPS speed test review yet. Personally, I doubt it though even if it shows on the speedo. I would guess that 75 MPH is more realistic and that would be great should allow for a cruising speed of 65 MPH then. Looking at the specs the Linhai 250 has about 3 hp more then the CF Moto 250 and I like the engine design better. Will post more of a review when I get there.
Andi
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Post by 90GTVert on May 22, 2007 20:13:53 GMT -5
I'm just guessing that the S2 uses the Linhai design based on the photos. Many times the photos are like the specs..... misleading. It's sort of like the way Hypro advertises a 2 year warranty. Is this a parts only, or parts and labor (doesn't say)? Tank offers 3 years (parts only), so where is the extra value? Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Daelim or any other brand. I just like up front and honest information rather than hype. BTW, I often say Linhai 250, but in reality many are considered 260's because they have a slightly larger bore which makes them 257cc. This is actually a throw back from the 60's and 70's when there were some restrictions on the cc's for duty and insurance as far as I can tell. A "50" was actually 49cc's, a "100" was 98 cc's and so on. I don't know why they would call a 257 cc engine a 250 since it doesn't sound as good unless some have a slightly smaller bore. The difference is insignificant though. Stan Stan, Did I read correctly in that the Daelim S2 uses the Linhai 250 engine? Same as in the Road Runner Race 250? This is shaping up to be an interesting review, looking forward to it. >>Will the RoadRunner Race 250 actually hit the advertised 85MPH mark they advertise (yes .. I know it is a stupid question but I have to ask) ?<< I actually wondered the same myself, I've not read a GPS speed test review yet. Personally, I doubt it though even if it shows on the speedo. I would guess that 75 MPH is more realistic and that would be great should allow for a cruising speed of 65 MPH then. Looking at the specs the Linhai 250 has about 3 hp more then the CF Moto 250 and I like the engine design better. Will post more of a review when I get there. Andi
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Post by tastroman on May 22, 2007 20:20:46 GMT -5
Up through 2006 the Daelim S2 250 used Kymco engines. They are supposed to be developing their own 250 motor.
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Post by natefromogden on May 22, 2007 23:33:19 GMT -5
Stan, this is all pretty interesting because I just talked to Alan @ PSF last week about a 300 SS Strada. He told me that it has been much improved from the first year 260 models as far as reliability. He didn't tell me that the model was being discontinued, though I didn't ask about that possibility.
I'd love to know more about it as I'm seriously looking at a bigger scoot and the Strada looks the least like a touring model of most I have seen.
Right now, if I could sell my 81 Suzuki GS850 and my Phantom, there is a 2006 Yamaha Morphous for sale that would come home with me in a second!
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Post by 90GTVert on May 23, 2007 0:21:18 GMT -5
I did receive a reply from Jim at Bandit, and he is not going to participate at this time, so we continue the search.
The only information I have about the SS300 being discontinued is what was posted in this thread. In my email to Alan, I did ask that question though, so we'll see what reply comes of it.
The problem with these touring models is that they have to compete with the cheaper versions of a 250 touring scooter, so it hurts the volume. Importers can only afford to bring in models that don't cost them warehouse space for long periods, so if they don't sell well due to price, they have to either drop the price, stop selling them, or promote them more to improve volume. If the quality is there, I think a serious 250 buyer would look past a slight premium to avoid some of the common ailments of the less expensive models. Unfortunately, a big price jump will cause the buyers to take their chances on the lower price, or jump to the known quality and support of the Japanese. We'll see where it all shakes out. Stan
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Post by lewtwo on May 23, 2007 4:36:08 GMT -5
Stan: Your comment on the difference in wheelbases made me do some research. The results suprised me I should never have doubted you. The Morphus does kinda skew things. I also looked at weight/displacement ratios. While displacement is not the only factor in power it is probably the largest factor. I added 175 pounds for rider and fluids. The racer should have a definite advantage. I can not get the board to display it in a readable size so here are the URLs to the files: www.keywild.com/scooter/scooterspecs.jpgwww.keywild.com/scooter/scooterspecs.xlsThe spreadsheet includes URLs references for most of the data as well.
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Post by Andi on May 23, 2007 12:41:27 GMT -5
lewtwo,
Very interesting comparison, adding the differences in hp would change things yet.
Comparing the power to weight ratios has the Road Runner pretty close to the Kymco Exciting, which is one of the heaviest 250's but also has the most horse power @ 29 hp (don't know the hp on the Morpheus).
It's hard to find the hp ratings on a lot of the models, but the Kymco Xciting 500 must be right up there as far as hp to weight ratio is concerned.
You may find it interesting that your Vespa GT is identical in the hp/weight ratio as the Race 250: Vespa GT: 21 hp/308 lbs= 0.0681818 Race 250: 18.75 hp/275 lbs = 0.0681818 Vespa GTS: 21.75 hp/326 lbs = 0.0667177 Kymco Xciting 250: 29 hp/418 lbs = 0.0693779 Kymco Xciting 500: 47 hp/473 lbs = 0.0993657
All that of course is just theory based on the (mis)information provided. Now some real world testing and results would be nice ;D .
Btw the second link doesn't work for me.
Andi
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Post by 90GTVert on May 23, 2007 13:41:59 GMT -5
The problem with all of this is that you can't trust the published specs on Chinese scooters (and probably others as well). As they say "the first liar doesn't stand a chance". For all intent and purpose, there are really only two 250 class engines in the Chinese scooters, and since these are all I am dealing with, I try to avoid delving into the other counrties that produce scooters. I think since the chart compares engine CC's, it should be noted that the CFMoto is really a 244cc engine as I recall. Anyway, as I have said before, specs don't really interest me for this. The review is based on what works and what doesn't for the consumer instead of a battle of the numbers. Good information though. Stan
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Post by lewtwo on May 23, 2007 21:25:21 GMT -5
I included the information on the other countries scooters because I wanted to have enough scope to put things in perspective. Numbers for Honda, Kymco and Vespa are easier to find ( and I have the manuals for the Honda Rebel and Vespa GT as well). I started just looking at the displacement and wheelbase but stuck weight and seat height in as long as I had hunt for the bike's specifications. The ratios were added as an afterthought because the data was all there. I left the HP rating out on purpose because frankly I do not believe the numbers are valid ( like the claimed top speed). The asian folks seem to be a bit optimistic and the numbers are many times inconsistent even for the same machine. Three other things that stuck me as odd:Vespa added 46cc ( 23% increase in displacement) and fuel injection between the GT and GTS, but only gained 0.75 HP ( 4% increase). Either the GT was overrated to begin with or they really screwed up when they built the GTS engine. The seat height for the for the SS300 is given at 35 inches. Could just be be bad data. 'Tis very difficult to find numbers for this bike. The Tank Touring Deluxe is very light compared to the other 250 machines. I have looked a four sites and all report the same weight and displacement ... but again could be bad data. Stan:Which one has the CFMOTO 244 engine ( it was a little early when I did all this) ? Andi:OK ... I fixed the URL for the XLS file (unix is case sensitive ) . I also added a few more machines and color coded for air vs water cooled. The GT does have good numbers and performs very well in real life for a 200cc machine. That is the principle reason I have it. I have to see a clear advantage before I swap it out ... but I am looking.
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Post by aristide1 on May 24, 2007 17:55:36 GMT -5
The seat height for the for the SS300 is given at 35 inches. Could just be be bad data. 'Tis very difficult to find numbers for this bike. I got $20 says some numb nuts measured the seat height with the kickstand down and the rear wheel 2 inches off ground. Kinda too light in price as well.
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Post by lewtwo on May 24, 2007 18:55:01 GMT -5
no bet ...
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Post by Andi on May 24, 2007 19:27:27 GMT -5
>>The GT does have good numbers and performs very well in real life for a 200cc machine. That is the principle reason I have it. I have to see a clear advantage before I swap it out ... but I am looking.<<
Sure does, that's some good horses for a 200, my 200 Dual Sport is listed at 16 hp.
I think that the 250 even though it has nearly the same hp, would have a bit more bottom end and should rev a little less providing a smother top end (there is no replacement for displacement)
Andi
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Post by rony on Jun 6, 2007 13:15:36 GMT -5
I think you will find the Road Runner speedo is pretty optimistic, but I have not done any full speed runs with it. I seriously doubt it will hit 85 with a GPS. When we tested the RR250ZRX, we were following it with a car to film and check the top speed. The test was not very conclusive because the car had a hard time keeping up with the scooter. The scooter was much faster than the car. The car we used was a 2.0liter class mazda (I'm not sure about the model since they are different in China). I will correct the top speed on the specs if you find the actual top speed is different by more than +/- 5MPH. This scooter is the fastest Chinese scooter I test drove so far. Rony evosales.com
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Post by rony on Jun 6, 2007 13:20:31 GMT -5
So far, I do like the Linhai design better and I think in the long term, they will take over the scooter market in this class. One selling point used with these scooters is the larger rear wheel, but in reality, that's bogus since the OD of the 10" vs the 12" or 13" tires are virtually the same, but the larger rims use low profile tires. I'm not sure I understand this correctly. What is OD? I have asked the factory in 20 different manners if they can put a 12 or 13" rear wheel on the RR250TLX and got the same answer every time, this engine can't take a rear wheel larger than 10". Even when they told me that the engine used in the new Jonway Roadster is from the same manufacturer as the RR250TLX engine, they told me that this engine can't be adapted to the 250TLX. Any information that proves the contrary may be helpful. Rony evosales.com
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Post by WarrenS on Jun 6, 2007 13:35:42 GMT -5
The OD is the outside diameter of the tire mounted on the wheel. It is like the cars where they put 17" wheels with low profile tires that end up being the same overall height as before. BTW I have heard of a guy who has 130,000 miles on his Helix and another who has over 50.000 miles. It will take some time before the Linhai engine proves that it has those kind of legs.
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Post by rony on Jun 6, 2007 13:40:04 GMT -5
I recently received a Road Runner Racer 250 and while preparing for a head to head comparison to the Tank 250, I decided I wanted to include a third scooter in the Touring class. Because the RR250 uses the Linhai clone 250 engine which is in the minority for the 250 engines, I'd like to add another Linhai clone powered scooter. That's a good idea as I think that the Tank touring does not compare to the RR250ZRX. In my opinion it is not a fair test for the Tank. These 2 bikes are not in the same class. What would be interesting is to compare the Tank touring to the 250TLX. Rony evosales.com
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