Chinese Scooter 250 purchase chronicles

[banditms]

Knorrtech,

It sounds like you are on the right path... it sounds like a gas problem from the fuel tank to the carburetor. The fuel filter shouldn't be stopping flow, or intermitently allowing it based on an orientation...

If you aren't fully up and running, you can call us about this as well. We can give you some tips over the phone about troubleshooting the fuel system... and can get more info from you while we are at it...

Thanks, Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports

[knorrtech]

Thanks Jim - You got me on the right track a while back as well -- I think I will replace the fuel filter as well since it is an inepesive part - I order one with the other part that I have ordered, lines and tap (vacuum valve, auto petcock). Thank again. I am going to take picture of this and point out.

One more interesting part to these bikes, all of the componet attachement or other attachements are place by a welded small piece of metal pertruding and then the component or piece cable tied to it, there is rust at these welded thin points and parts and it would fall off in about a year. I am sanding down with a simple nail filer and then painting with rustolium. Component like air evaportaion canister (you mentioned previousely) put in place with a thin cable tie. I will reinforce that. Going to take some before and after pics. Possibly by next week after I replace the parts.

[knorrtech]

i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/knorrtech/P1010002.jpg

i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/knorrtech/P1010007.jpg

Before and after - but the battery was dead only reading .3 volts, purchased a new one tonight and will put it in tomorrow - Will check under cowl (battery is under the dash). I printed out Jim from Bandit Motors information in another thread (250cc Viva battery not charging) and will check those items.

Also - note in the picture, there are welded small pieces of metal to the frame. This is were some attached components etc would be, but these small welds will break off in time so I will need to file down and paint with rutolium.

Note - The center stand would scrape, left or right turns, I cliped the rubber stopper in the middle underneath, clipped about 1/2 inche or so, now it does not scrape, the stand hugs more and does not make noise either.

[knorrtech]

Ok - Finished road for 15 minutes it cut out, then start cutting out after 10 seconds. I waited shook the bike, it worked - for a long time - 20 minutes but then. I found something - it is a small round black item on the right hand side of the scooter, a hose comes off of the tank up top and goes into this small black Filter thing? It is giggling around all the time, not stable, I took it out and blew into it, air comes out , when I tilt it or turn it upside down no air, I think it is giggling around. Which way does it sit? with air blowing out or no air blowing out in the direction of the air canister or going out from the tank?

PS my battery died because I left the key in over night, even though the engine is off, no light, and cut off engaged, it drained the battery, anyway have a new battery now and all voltage meter reading are good according to your information on the other thread (Tank setup thread)

Thanks -

[banditms]

Knorrtech,

I was lookin at the pics that you posted... and got terribly confused. In my opnion, you've got about 15 lines too many... and given how many there are, it's no doubt several go to the wrong places. Can you e-mail me pics of several angles of your engine compartment so I can try to sort which ones are needed and which ones can be tossed....

I suspect that at least two lines are going to the wrong place in the pics you have posted. But I need some more angles to verify...

Thanks,
Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports
sales at bandit-motorsports dot com

[knorrtech]

You said it --- There are plenty of lines - I am running now by placing the line from the bottom of the gas tank to the filter to the carb - runs A ok for an hour or more. But no way once I hook it all those lines up together. Bought a new battery, but that goes get zapped over nite or at least in 48 hours. Trying to disarm the alarm perminantly, I did see a good artical on .

abacus-es.net/motorscooter/chinese_scooter_alarms.html


I will get better picks and post - probably tomorrow or Wednesday if it rains too hard tomorrow - will be interesting to see what is up with these lines - Thanks -

[knorrtech]

Jim - This is a drawing - I will get pics this weekend, but was looking in the engine compartment without taking it apart and drew this out.




Also, each day the battery was drained. I took the cowling off and detatched the alarm and autostart feature by pulling the fuse Detatched the little light in the middle, The scoot started up today.

[90GTVert]

This is why the very first order of business on ANY Chinese scooter is to replace all of the vacuum lines, fuel lines and filter. This way you have good quality thick wall lines and you know where and how they are routed. The next step in the setup process is to replace ALL fluids (coolant, engine oil and gear oil). That also tells you that the fluids are good quality and not the junk the factory loads, as well as helping you learn how to do it. Sounds like a vacuum valve issue in your case, but until you replace the lines you may chase it forever. A simple vacuum pump will allow you to test the valve. Stan

knorrtech said:

Jim J -

Thanks for the information and comments - Yes, I do recommend purchase from a good dealer whom supports the purchase. This is worth all of the money I thought I would save and then some. This is also the reason why I am documenting and telling of my experiences as well on this board. In addition, the best forum I have experienced in my 17 years of being online.

I took the filter out - that was good fuel getting into the filter and filter inline correctly. I also did throttle the gas with key on, gas line over a can and did see that absolutely no gas is getting pumped to the carb, I will follow the rest of the recommendations and post the results after I test tomorrow.

Thanks again -

[knorrtech]

Still Working on this - I replaced the lines and auto petcock, problem persists , but it does work very very well when I have the tank to the filter and then directly to the carb . I have been running like this while I troubleshoot a more pressing issue with the battery draining overnight. After the battery issues, which I will ask now if anyone has any suggestions, I'll get the pictures of the fuel system to Jim, I am going to take off all off the body today to see what I can in regard to the electrical problem.

I have checked the battery when running idle, it does go down, then when I open the throttle a bit it does charge slightly as well. I have disconnected the alarm (removed the fuse). When I leave it overnight and come home from work, it is dead. I charge it up run it for an hour, come home, and I can start it up all day and run it hear and there testing it out, then the next day - dead. I took the battery out, charged it up, put it on the porch, checked it the next day, 12.65 reading.

I check all of the connections unde the cowl and what I can see. Now I am going to take all of the body covering off and take all the connections apart one by one and put them back. I do see a connection in the back which is backwards, but it is a coil and should not matter? it is by the terminal ends under the seat - the place where I can charge it without taking the front cowl off.The battery is under the front cowl. Also, I did purchase a new battery last week, same problem.

Thanks - Still working on it.

[robbovius]

KNorrtech, what are you using to check the charging system voltage?

forgive me if you know this already - ordinarily, at idle, voltage at the battery terminals should be about 12 VDC. revving the engine, at about 2k rpm you shoudl see a voltage rise to about 13-14 VDC where it should level off, and stay at that level no matter how high the revs get

if the voltage stays at 12 volts, then the alternator is not charging/has no output. this indicates a bum alternator stator (the electrical windings) or a bad connection to the stator.

if the voltage rises beyond 14 VDC and keeps rising with engine speed, then the voltage regulator is bad.

if the test inidicates that both the alternator a voltage regulator are working, but the battery continues to lose charge while sitting, then there is a short in the harness somewhere. unfortunately chasing down a hidden short in the harness is one of the biggest PITA in all of wrench-dom.

[knorrtech]

Hi - I am using a meter - volts, turn on the engine then put the red and black to the leads under the seat, that was last week or more, I have been doing so much, I am going to go back to square one and get the readings again from the front. I wanted to see if the battery drained by itself, it does not. So I am going to go through the measurements again.

I recall at idle it went down steadily - have to see if it goes below 12V and the when I rev - will see it it levels at 13 - 14. Will check - you know they wiring diagram looks good, but what they did looks -- well somewhat backwards. Wires do not match, they were not very good at matching colors or wires going in and out of connectors, pink to green, violet to red that sort of stuff - one color going into the harnes another coming out - so tracing is a bear. After I take the measurements again - will know from the info you sent where I should go. Also will get info sent by Jim, together I will be able to get a better direction. PS - Lights are alway working a good when I charge, blinkers head lights horn, eveything works well.

[knorrtech]

Just got finish for tonight, took cowl off and some panels - In the back, there are 3 yellow wires from altinator - 16v on each leg, then stepped up engine - got 35v easy on each leg. Then went up to the front where the battery is, took reading on the 3" by 3" black box - Rectifier(on left side front under the cowl) got 14.6 V DC then checked battery got 13.2 and reveved engine got only 13.6 disconnected battery and it kept running.

I see the regulator on the oposite side(right side) in the fron it has red/white wires and can not trace them to the back, it goes into a thick harness going down into the back but when I took the panels on the side off - no red/white wires. So from the Rectifier to the battery I am losing the power?? Regulator perhaps ?

Will go to town on it again tomorrow night.

[banditms]

Knorrtech,

In regards to your battery situation, you indicate the following in a set of posts from Yesterday (May 7) as follows...

1. Your battery, when removed from the scooter and left overnight has a charge of 12.6 volts the following day...

2. You have disabled your alarm by pulling the fuse to that module.

3. When your scooter is running, your battery shows a charge of approx 12 volts when idleing and 13-14 volts when rev'd some.

4. Your lights and blinkers seem to be functioning correctly all of the time.

5. When you disconnected the battery, the scooter continued running.

These factors in and of themselves indicate that both your power system and charging system are working properly. You then verified that by checking the 3 yellow wires (from the stator) to see the volts coming to your rectifier... everything sounds good there for all those checks you made.

6. Now, when the scooter is off, your battery will drain over night. Sounds like a short to me that is draining your battery when the scooter is not running... especially if your alarm is disabled with the fuse removal.

When you connect the battery, with the scooter not running and the ignition switch turned off, do you get a slight spark at the second battery terminal that you connect to? That's an easy check for a short. Also, you ignition switch could be faulty and grounding out on you when it shouldn't.

I don't think it could be any of the other switches, because the ignition switch would have to be on for any other switch to short out the system and drain your battery... and the answer there is that your ignition switch is on. ( - ;

I can't think of anything else in the electrical system that would steadily drain the battery while it was connected to the scooter and the scooter was not running - besides the alarm.... and other than a short somewhere. Do the connection test as above and let us know...

Also, still need more info on your vacuum and fuel lines... but I'm starting to suspect from your drawing that it is 'semi' OK as is...

Thanks, Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports
www.bandit-motorsports.com/250cc-scooters.html

[knorrtech]

Jim -

There is no spark on the accessory wire or battery. The accessory wire is very small number 20 or 18 wire (don't know if that matters and it has a 15 amp accessory fuse.

I have to check out some things with an amp meter see what is going on with the wire and ignition when I put the battery back in. You may have something there - when I turn the ignition 1/4 counter clock it is off, when it is straigt up and engine not on, it starts to drain, when I left the key in it drained, but it does now also if I leave the key out. So I will check to see if it is drawing when key is turned 1/4 counter.

We unwrapped the harness just as it goes down from under the cowl to the back. there are 4 white wires from the diode, regulator/ rectifier and I forget another place under the cowl, they welded them together to one white wire which goes back to the rear lights where it pops out into 2 white wires. They just soder and then stick them all together and wrap it up in a ball of electrical tape. Going to pick out the looped wires to see more which go where and follow it through.

I know now where the wires go and I am going to put a volt meter on the green to the white in the back to see if there is a drop. I will know a little more each day and get back to you on this.

They really have done some wild stuff here. As soon as I know more I will take you up on that call. Is there a good time to get in contact with you.

Thanks -

[knorrtech]

Well I took off today and worked on the bike from 10 till a few hours ago. We taped back the electical and put new connectors on, replace some of the tin things they had on. We do get 13.6 at the battery terminals took off some of the lights and it goes up, it's just the load on this battery. I think when I ran it down to nothing, I just never ran it long enough to charge. The ignition seems to be ok, it does not put a load on when turned off to the left.

I bought a solar panel 1.8 am to tricke down to the battery when parked. Got it on ebay for 28 bucks and it is preaty nice. Just put leads on the battery and place the connector near the port on the console.

We changed all of the fuel lines and vacuum lines today again. The fuel line was scumming up a bit, the one I got from Pep Boys. The scoot started up quite a few time today. Then we put the console back and finished off the lines, placed the tank in, started it, no start, then gas was gushing out of the middle of the carb, not on any hose.

When I changed the line and pulled the bottom one off the carb(not the fuel line) fuel gushed out of it, about a quarter cup, so now when I started it up fuel gushed out of the middle of the carb.

Took the carb off, it was all gummed up and crummy, clean it with a litte paint brush, put it on -not starting, do get spark, does not start with quick start spray. Think it may be the spark plug is soaked? That is the only thing I could think of. Here are some picks of the engine .

[knorrtech]

We are finished as far as we can go - now we have either to figure out what is wrong again or put a manual petcock on. Before we put the autopetcock on we have to identify this component. What is it what does it do, one way air gets through turn it upside down no air. Will it make the system loose vacuum if it bounces around? it is out from the top of the gas tank on to a tee connector to the top of the canister and one goes to the carb.

This is the only part we do not know and have not replaced. Something does shake around inside. We replace all line, petcock fuel filter, cleaned carb.

I looked up this piece as much as I could online, seems like it is a two way restriction valve into the charcole emition canister, I wonder if this is the problem, should it shake and cut off when upside down. Can I get rid of this valve?

PS - My drawing from previous post is wrong - I have a couble of vacuum line drawn out incorrectly - pictures are accurate.
Thanks --

here is the pic of the little black container. 1 inch by about 3/4 inch.

[knorrtech]

Greetings all - Can't say enough about everyones input, I read quite a bit of past posts regarding anything that related to my issues. We seem to have fixed the final issue of the bike cutting out after 10-15 minutes by completely replacing the vacuum fuel valve with an automatic mounted shutoff valve mounted outside on the side. The scoot was not run for about 3 days, it started up fine - the battery drain issue seems to be good now. I have some pictures of the mounted valve, I paid 11.55 from heaters on the web, they seem very helpful and good price. Only took 2 days to get the part. I had to re route the vacuum line coming off of the top of the carburetor that went into a T then it T'd off to the old petcock or valve and it also went to the evap charcoal canister. Now it goes directly to the evap canister (if I did something wrong here, let me know). It is hard to see what lines I could have taken off because it has that California C.A.R.B emission system stuff on it, I live in Pa so I would have liked to remove it, but if it runs good then I am ok with it, we'll see. The pics have the places changed bordered by a yellow box or circled in yellow.
So far Did the following - have to now change all the oil, water and gear oil. (next week or so) Just want to enjoy it a little now.
1. change battery
2. changed connectors on wires, re rapped some wires
3. disconnected the alarm system (grey box under the cowl - took the fuse out)
4. changed the filter
4.5 changed existing petcock vacuum fuel valve with new one
5. put manual petcock or fuel valve in
6. changed all gas and vacuum hoses and connectors
7. loosened up and cleaned gunk on gas sensor
8. shaved off 1/2 inch on the middle stand rubber thing - it was rubbing too much on turns and bends.
9. Put electrical tape on the intake air hose (it did not close because the frame prevents it to close correctly.
10. Detach front middle light - was no use.
11. patch crack in body (2inch crack)
12. Took seat covering off and shaved down seat to have more of a dip so I wasn't leaning forward,then stapled it and placed batting for comfort (Did 2x's, 2nd time it took about 11 minutes to do)
13. Took carburetor out and cleaned all of the orange gunk out.
Have to put the trunk on now - can't wait to see what that brings --
I think that's it -





Thanks again all - If anyone know how the CA Carb works in respect to the 2 lines coming out of the right side top and bottom respectively to the canister - I would like to know also.

[Gary]

Wow, that is a lot of work. Hope the weather cooperates and you can get out for some fun.

[airnerd]

I have the 150 version in Yellow.

I have 1700 chinometers on it now and the seat is just now staring to feel ok.

Man the 250 power must be sweeeeet!

[knorrtech]

One last problem -

Not charging, battery is alway dead once I turn off the bike power. Next startup - dead.

I changed the battery, checked all of the voltages (see information about a week ago or so on this post)

I guess now I will pull all the light plugs, run around the block 50 times then see if it runs it down. I know it is not getting recharged, but all of the voltage readings seem to be good??

Any ideas anyone - I just can't think of anything else right now - I did check the alt, battery after start readings (see previous post)

Thanks -

[knorrtech]

Hey all - Just found out that if you purchase over the internet, at least in my district/state you can file a small claims. Since I have contacted the dealer so many times - I am going to small claims. Will let let you know what happens -

[A J]

knorrtech said:

Just got finish for tonight, took cowl off and some panels - In the back, there are 3 yellow wires from altinator - 16v on each leg, then stepped up engine - got 35v easy on each leg. Then went up to the front where the battery is, took reading on the 3" by 3" black box - Rectifier(on left side front under the cowl) got 14.6 V DC then checked battery got 13.2 and reveved engine got only 13.6 disconnected battery and it kept running.

I have a suspicion that you are leaking current back through the alternator windings when the engine is not running. Here is what I would do:
With the battery charged up and ignition switch OFF, put an ammeter in series with the positive wire from the battery. Read the current flowing when none should be flowing.

If you get a reading, disconnect the black box - Rectifier you mentioned and see if the current through the meter goes to zero.

If not, then disconnect the voltage regulator and check the meter.

If you still have current through the meter, continue to disconnect items of wiring until you isolate what it is that stops the current flow through the meter.
My guess would be a shorted diode in the rectifier module allowing current to leak back through one of the alternator windings when the alternator is not pushing current out.

Hope this helps.
AJ

[knorrtech]

AJ - This sounds very interesting - I am going to work on the bike tomorrow and will folow what you said. I also now have a tat tat tat sound upfront on the front tire region it tat tat's fast when I go fast and then slows when I go slow to the tires speed. I have posted this new issue on another area - think I got it into the wrong area on the forum.

So I will check out the front tire and speedo (airnerd suggestion) on that and then check what you just outlined as well - thanks that realy sounds like something may turn up on that check you descrbed, very interested to see.

Regards -