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Post by scooterollie on Jun 3, 2006 14:39:50 GMT -5
Lee, et. al.;
Anyone know anything about the 2006 Yamati 250cc Cruiser (http://ndpowersports.com/ultimatecruiser250.htm)? Talked with a person at "National Direct Powersports about this model. I was told that there were some problems last year with temp. control/overheating. In '05 he said they (Qianjiang) used a horizontal design 250cc engine w/o electronics to control fans and a 10" rear wheel/tire. For '06 they went to the vertical design engine with 13" X 4" wheels/tires front and back, and full electronics to control fans. Made other changes for '06 such as rear disc brake.
The following is a quote from the PSF website:
"Qianjiang USA, Inc is a joint-venture company owned by Qianjiang Motorcycles Group, China and Power Sports Factory, Inc. Exclusive importer and distributor for all Qianjiang Motorcycles. Qianjiang USA is an EPA certificate holder for 50cc, 125cc, 150cc and 258 cc families of engines."
What does anyone know about Qianjiang products, PSF, National Direct Powersports, and the Yamati/Strada products? I know we have more experience here with the 50/125/150cc models but I believe the water cooled 250cc machines have been produced for years and marketed in many other places in the world. I did some internet searches but could not find much info about these machines. I really like my Roketa 150cc Phantom clone but believe I would enjoy a cruiser-type scoot, with softer ride and more power, even more. Since I have a buyer at a great price for my '05 Roketa and the chance to pick up one of these scoots for just a few hundred more, I am giving serious thought to buying one.
ScooterOllie
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Post by Admin on Jun 3, 2006 16:34:59 GMT -5
The bike you linked to is not Yamati. It says the engine is built by KTMEX, which is Tank. Supposedly this bike was shipped to me last Tues. for review but that remains to be seen. Tank hasn't been especially good in the communications department of life.
As to PowerSportsFactory, Yamati, and QJ, here is the deal best I can understand it from direct communication via phone and email with Alan Leson, President of PSF. PSF imports bikes built by QJ, but they also import bikes from another supplier(s?). Just because it's a Strada doesn't mean it's necessarily a QJ. In other words, If you buy a Strada, you would do well to check to see if it's a QJ. In my humble opinion, QJ is one of the best manufacturers in China. CPI (headquartered in Taiwan but plants in China and Vietnam), CFMoto and Zongshen are right up there too. I highly doubt QJ has anything to do with the TANK scooter. Don't know about the PSF 250cc scooter. I'll Ask Alan but I believe he is on vacation right now.
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Post by Jacine on Jun 3, 2006 20:10:23 GMT -5
Yamati just lost a suit to Yamaha, infringment on name and design of products. Like it will stop them LOL. Anyways the Yamati is suppose to be faily good, the only problem may be in parts if the government gives in to Yamaha and stops allowing imports from the company.
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 3, 2006 21:16:49 GMT -5
Lee;
I thought I remembered you mentioning receiving a 250 for testing. Since it is supposed to be a Tank, are you receiving it from PSF, NDP, or? When I spoke with the guy at NDP and specifically asked him if the name of the manufacturer on the plate affixed to the scoot was Qianjiang, he said yes! Guess that needs to be verified in light of what you have said. While I noticed the reference to "KTMMEX" as the source of the engine, I did not know that was who makes the Tank. I have seen that body listed on several sites with different "brand" names - Baron, Yamati, Longbo by Chuanl, Diamo, Strada, ECS Urban - to name a few. Just like all the other scoot clone models! If the one on the link I provided is really a Tank, wonder why it has "Yamati" on it's side? Is this just misleading, deceptive advertising? Would this be one of the other bikes imported by PSF and sold to NDP? Sure will be interested in your evaluation!
ScooterOllie
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Post by Admin on Jun 4, 2006 7:40:51 GMT -5
The 250cc on the way is from Tank Sports. The labels on Tank products read KTMEX. This whole thing seems very odd. Perhaps when the 250cc arrives I can learn something from the labels. I've been told that the engine on these 250's is Linhai Yamaha. I don't have a clue whether KTMEX is somehow tied in with QJ but I doubt it.
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 4, 2006 10:50:27 GMT -5
This information was sent to me by Lev from Baron Scooters, and should clear up some of the engine questions on the 250 scooters. I was trying to sort out the bad information found on many sites about which engine is in which scooter. Some even say they have a Yamaha engine, which I doubt is actually correct. Stan
My question to Lev was: I see that Tank originally advertised their model as having the 12" rear wheel, but when delivered, they actually came with the 10" wheel. Your model says it has the 12" drive, but both scooters appear to use the 250cc Honda clone engine. My understanding was that the 12" drive was for use with the 260cc Linhai engine. Can you shed any light on that?
His reply was: Linhai does not sell engines to anyone, so any bike that has the larger rear wheel has a Linhai clone engine. This was the result of one of Linhai’s employees leaving Linhai and starting his own engine manufacturing venture. Our 250-PM bikes have the 10” rear wheel, not 12” and I’ve corrected that on the website.
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Post by Admin on Jun 4, 2006 16:02:58 GMT -5
Interesting Stan. Lev's info directly contradicts what Matt Solo from Diamo told me. He said his 250cc scoots have Linhai/Yamaha engines. Who to believe?
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 4, 2006 17:22:16 GMT -5
Stan;
Thanks for the info. I will be calling "National Direct Powersports" Monday to ask more questions. He did say that there was an engine change from '05 to '06 as I stated above. I guess it would be a Linhai clone just like all the GY6 clones. He did say that the engine is now vertical and I believe I have read that the Linhai-Yamaha style engine is vertical. Since they say (and Lee mentioned) on their website that the engine is made by KTMMEX, I guess it must be a Tank product. I wonder if that is good, bad or just OK, a decent engine? While it is listed as a 250cc, if it is truly a Linhai-Yamaha clone
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 4, 2006 17:24:00 GMT -5
I agree! The Linhai info is sketchy at best. The statement that the 10" rear wheel is a Honda clone engine (250cc) seems to be consistent, and the 12" drive is the Yamaha clone engine (260cc). Whether Linhai actually sells engines, or these engines are from a clone source is all over the map. As I said, I've seen Stradas advertised with a Yamaha engine which I'm sure is false or it would say Yamaha on it. I've also seen 260cc scooters that say the use the Linhai engine (they also mention Yamaha, but don't claim to be a genuine Yamaha engine). As I understand it, Linhai is owned by Yamaha (?). I find this whole thing interesting, so if you dig up anything to confirm the truth, I'm interested in knowing what you find. Someone recently said Yamati lost a lawsuit to Yamaha, but I know the Yamati 250 is using the Honda clone engine and the GY6 is also a Honda design, so maybe it was over something else. Stan
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 4, 2006 17:32:17 GMT -5
My understanding was that the Honda clone 250 was verticle and Linhai design was horizontal. Maybe I'm all wet here, but this is what was posted some time back:
Here is a good explanation of the 10" vs 12" wheel options as they relate to engine makers. This was posted on ScooterBBS by Lev, the owner of Baron Motorcycles. The feedback from others about this post was that this was a great explanation of which engines have which wheel size.
"There are two types of engines. Honda clone that's made by CF Moto and Yamaha clone that's made by other factories. CF Moto's Honda clone had been in production for about 16 years. It is a very good, reliable engine. It is used in most 250cc go carts and water cooled ATVs. This engine accomodates a 10" wheel, not a 12" wheel. If there are any overheating problems with this engine, they are not due to the engine. They're usually due to position of the radiator and external switches.
The other engine is Yamaha Linhai and its clones. Yamaha Linhai is a good engine, but the clones are very young and not proven. These engines accomodate 12" wheel because they have longer bodies. These have horizontal cylinder VS vertical cylinder for CF Moto. Yamaha clones are made by several factories and one must be very careful selecting the engine that's made by the right factory. All factories only do assembly, not actual parts manufacturing, so quality of castings and internal components is very important. "
The Tank 250cc definitely has the vertical cylinder engine.
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 4, 2006 19:57:38 GMT -5
Stan;
Thanks again for the information. I believe you are correct about the horizontal/vertical thing. I was going by what the guy at NDP told me and it appears he may have had it backwards. Saw the posts on ScooterBBS you refer to. How do you know if you have an engine made by the right factory? If the scoot from NDP is a Tank, I wonder what the reputation is for the KTMMX engine?
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 4, 2006 20:41:50 GMT -5
The Tank is using the Honda clone engine, which has a good long history. However, we really have no idea if all of these are made by the same folks or not. I understand that one Tank owner reported having a CFmoto tag on his 250 engine, which should be a good engine.
The one thing I don't like about the Honda clone engine is the use of the 10" rear wheel. A common complaint on these models is the center stand dragging in turns. I'd think they could solve this with a taller profile tire, or longer shocks.
I'm torn between the two engines, but I'll probably end up with the Honda clone simply because it's the most popular and for service tip articles, it would be more useful.
I have been trying to get Tank to grant a waiver so I can purchase one of theirs from a reputable dealer (drop shipped), but I doubt they will reply (typical of them). If that's the case, I'll be using one of the other clones, since I don't want to deal with any of the internet outfits that don't support the product, and the current policy is that the 250's are not to be drop shipped. My second choice would be either the Yamati or Baron, but I'll wait to see if Tank responds first. Stan
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Post by Admin on Jun 4, 2006 21:39:10 GMT -5
Stan, PSF doesn't even show a 250cc on their website anymore. It jumps straight from 150cc to 300cc. After all you've done for TANK owners, they should just ship you a bike. Anyway, if they hold to their word, I should have a TANK 250cc here early this week. Supposedly shipped last Tues. but I have no tracking number and my only contact at TANK is in China. For the rest of you interested in this, I will be in close contact and be consulting with Stan the Man and soon as it arrives.
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 4, 2006 22:07:43 GMT -5
The only thing I've found on the PSF site is Strada and they are replacing the 260 with the 300. Since I'm not at all convinced that the Strada is worth well over $1,000 more than the others, I doubt it would be a consideration. Plus the fact that I think it's more useful if I stick with the most common type engine for trouble shooting purposes (Honda clone). If I were to go to a Linhai 260 clone engine, I can get those in Oregon.
Tank has not been exactly helpful with information or replies, despite their offer to help in any way they could. I seriously doubt they will work with me on this, even though the only thing I've asked of them is for them to grant one dealer a waiver for drop shipping one scooter, which is currently against their policy. I could find a dealer that will do it without the waiver, but I don't want them coming back on the dealer, and I prefer to be right up front with them.
I think it may scare them to do this because if I buy the scooter, they have no control over what I write about. One of the Reps did leave me a phone message saying he wanted me to call him to discuss becoming a dealer, despite my telling them I would NOT sell scooters. My initial request was on 5/28/06 (emailed to Sam Pan, Eddie Quiroa and Jim Ji), and I figure I'll give them a couple more weeks, then I'll pursue one of the other brands. Stan
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 4, 2006 22:29:13 GMT -5
I'd quiz the folks at NDP about the accuracy of the web site info. They used to say 10" rear wheel (drum brake), but now it says 12" (disk brake). So, if they changed to the Linhai horizontal clone, it should actually be a 257cc engine and I would have thought they would change the specs on the web site since 260 sounds better than 250.
It also says it's a Yamati, so you may want to clarify that this is the brand you will actually receive. Keep us posted on this one! Stan
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 5, 2006 8:25:14 GMT -5
I emailed Dan at NDP and he says the Yamati has the Honda clone 250 engine. He didn't answer the question about the rear wheel size, but I suspect the site is wrong and it's actually a 10" wheel. I did send a follow up email to ask about the wheel size again and I'll let you know if I get a reply. Stan
BTW: They are not in stock at this time. He said they expect them in late June.
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 5, 2006 10:08:18 GMT -5
Stan; I talked with Tank this morning and was told that I could pre-order one for $2299.00, shipped from CA. He said that they were told no more ebay sales but unless/until they are told differently, they will still be selling/shipping direct to individuals. The bikes are not in stock now. A new shipment is to arrive soon but all are spoken for. He estimates another 30 days. The rear does have a 3.5 X 10" wheel/tire. 6 months/6K miles power train warranty. Other parts less. Talked with PSF and they do still have some 250cc bikes. I think the new 300cc will replace those. The style is not the same. You can see them here: www.blacktopmotorsport.com/Motostrada_RX260_liquidcooled_p/bty-507.htm. Just as you said, I don't know either if I can justify the extra $1,000+. I do think the body style is interesting and fresh. Specifications indicate 12" tires front and rear. Bandit has an SX-250Z for $2399 and indicates 12" tires plus the 257cc Linhai-Yamaha. Have talked with them to verify this information. All colors shown on their website are in stock. They also have the UC-250 body style like the Strada RX260, for $2,699. Same chassis, drive train. Major difference is cosmetic. He said this one is the more popular seller now. Temp regulation is controlled typical mechanical auto-style thermostat. They had one engine with a defective water pump impeller. Sent the customer a new power plant just in case there was some engine damage caused by overheating. Called EVO Sales. The guy did not seem to know much about his scooter. Wasn't certain about the wheel size but it was probably a 10" because the stand drags with hard leans. Said to watch his video and see if I could determine the size! His scooters are made by JMStar. Talked with Dan at NDP at about 3:50 P.M. EDT to verify tire and engine info. He said the same thing about the engine - a Honda clone. He said he did respond to your question about tire size and it is definitely 12" in the rear. Said the 10" rear tire versions are ones that the dealers are trying to get rid of because they just aren't as good and that Tank is still specifying 10" rear. Said that NDP now specifies 12" on all scooters of this type. He said it was not a Tank but a Yamati, yet we know that it is not the "other" Yamati. The NDP scooter still sounds like one worth considering. Specs and price seem to match what I am looking for. Also like the 12 mo. drive train warranty. I did place a pre-order for a silver one last Friday - due in 6/26 - just to hedge my bet while I continue to search and learn and also wait for Dawg's evaluation of the Tank. Dan said the 6/26 order was 80% sold. Gets interestinger and interestinger! ScooterOllie |
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Post by Javarod on Jun 5, 2006 21:18:03 GMT -5
I have been trying to get Tank to grant a waiver so I can purchase one of theirs from a reputable dealer (drop shipped), but I doubt they will reply (typical of them). If that's the case, I'll be using one of the other clones, since I don't want to deal with any of the internet outfits that don't support the product, and the current policy is that the 250's are not to be drop shipped. My second choice would be either the Yamati or Baron, but I'll wait to see if Tank responds first. Stan Hmmmm, are you looking to a drop shipper to save money, or because there's no dealer in your area? If its the latter, have you considered having them do all the prep and set up, then send it either via a motorcycle transport company, or FedEx Custom Critical? |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 6, 2006 19:51:21 GMT -5
No, I wasn't trying to save money by drop shipping, but there are no Tank dealers in Oregon. I definitely don't want someone else doing the prep work though. I'm working with a couple companies right now, and I expect to come up with a suitable specimen id short order.
I may go to Eugene to look at Bandit's scooters, but I'd rather go with the Honda clone engine because there are more of them and I think the articles would be more useful. I do like the Starad style better, but I have to go with what will do others more good.
Apparently, the Yamati name is used in more than one place. I have been in contact with PSF, but we keep missing each other. I doubt I'll go with the 260 or 300 for the reasons above.
NDP did throw me a curve with the 12" wheel and Honda clone engine. That is the first time I've run into that combo. I'm glad you confirmed that with Dan since I was concerned about the validity of the wheel size. As I said, I'm not holding my breath on Tank. I'll probably end up buying the Yamati from NDP rather than hassle with Tank. Stan
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 6, 2006 20:33:46 GMT -5
Stan;
When I spoke with Dan yesterday, he was very adamant about the rear wheel size and that the dealers who have the 10" size 250s in stock are just trying to unload them on the public to get rid of them so they can replace them with the 12" 250s. When you speak with the different ones, each bashes the other(s) saying they are the only one doing it right and only they have the top quality parts and assembler. Did you look at the 250 Yamati Elite Cruiser on NDP's site for $2,499? This is a neat body style, perhaps more modern and distinctive. It is about 10" shorter than the Ultimate Cruiser 250 - more the size of 150 Phantom clones. The specs are interesting with adjustable rear shocks, front monotube design, etc. I have wondered about those tall mirrors. Would they vibrate much with the inherent vibration of these single-cylinder scoots? Think I'll call Dan again with questions!!
ScooterOllie
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 6, 2006 22:11:04 GMT -5
Yeah, I just got an email from PSF and they said they OEM the Yamati for NDP to their specs. The reason for liking this model is the 12" rear wheel, but you could overcome the 10" with an inch longer shocks if need be.
Because this body style has been so popular in the 150's I'm gambling that it will be the big seller in the 250, and the Honda clone engine is the most widely used, so it's a natural for what I need it for. My concern with the Yamati is alienating the Tank dealers and I don't know what parts support NDP will offer. Warranty isn't a concern to me since none of the lower end scooter companies seem to back them anyway, and I can fix just about anything that could go wrong in house.
EVO sales is telling me they will have more of the JMSTAR scooters in a couple weeks, but also say they have a better model expected in about 5 weeks. No info on what was better, but maybe it's the larger rear wheel.
When evaluating what the truth is, it reminds me of an old saying that refers to story telling where each person tells a whopper of a story. The saying is "The first liar doesn't stand a chance". Who knows how much of all of this is true.......
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Post by Admin on Jun 6, 2006 22:23:06 GMT -5
That reminds me of something somebody said to me about the big Dealer Expo that takes place every year in Indy. It's a time when everybody in the industry gets together and lies to each other. I talk and email with these folks all the time and there is plenty of B.S. to drown in, but every once and a while you gain a little nugget of truth.
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 6, 2006 22:32:48 GMT -5
Stan;
I think you nailed it!!! ("The first liar doesn't stand a chance".)
Interesting about the source for the NDP Yamati. I hope "... to their specs" does not mean low quality. Think I will let my order stand for the Ultimate (Urban) Cruiser from NDP for now. I, also, believe this model will best suit my needs. If what Dan told me about them being the largest brick & mortar store in Kansas City and they are supplied by PSF, I think we will be OK for parts and at least over-the-phone service advice. I am competent for general trouble shooting and most of the regular stuff short of engine tear down. Let's keep the communication channel open for anything else we discover.
What do you think Dawg? Can't wait for the news from you about the Tank 250.
ScooterOllie
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 6, 2006 22:48:26 GMT -5
The info below is a quote from the email from PSF. They made it sound as though they own a factory in China and contracted to build the NDP scooter, but didn't really want to be associated with it. I assume this is merely because they only handle the Strada in the larger scooters, but that is just my assumption.
"We OEM'd this scooter for them at our factory in China. It was built to their specs and is a very low end machine. Although it has our name on it we do not support it or stock parts for this model."
"Also we have no affiliation with this importer. They are not a Yamati dealer. We OEM and Private label for many importers throughout the USA."
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Post by Admin on Jun 6, 2006 23:08:39 GMT -5
First off, that company is not in Kansas City (I know, I live here). Secondly, PSF does OEM cheap scooters under private labels. I wish they wouldn't do that because it tarnishes their name. This company in Wichita was thoroughly trashed on scooter bbs if I remember correctly, by some very unhappy customers. In my opinion, PSF should stick to the quality stuff, like they sent me.
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 7, 2006 7:04:53 GMT -5
Not very good news! Guess I'll have to rethink - again!
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 7, 2006 8:20:26 GMT -5
Maybe not. If you stick with one of the common body types, and the Honda clone engine, I think you'll be all set for parts since these are very commonly used in lots of models. Body panels could be a problem because of colors, but they can always be painted if need be. I just noticed you have a ROKETA 150. I had a call last Saturday from a lady who watches one of the groups, and she was in town for a MSF safety course. Her ROKETA started leaking brake fluid so the instructor wouldn't let her continue and the local shops couldn't (wouldn't) fix it for her. So she brought it by and I removed the ABS valve, made a few other adjustments for her, and she was good to go....... except, it wouldn't start (no spark). After fooling with it for several minutes, it hit me that MSF always teaches riders to shut off the kill switch, then the ignition....... My bad (I should know better). It started right up after flipping the kill switch. Anyway, I was impressed with the little scooter. Very nice looking, and it had enough power to burn rubber on the lift table.  Stan |
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 7, 2006 12:40:05 GMT -5
Stan;
I am not looking for perfection for $2,300. I paid $1,500 for my Roketa Phantom clone from a local start-up dealer and have been very pleased for the money. Now have 500+ miles on it. I have not had any problems. It runs well, has decent quality components and no squeaks or rattles. I did recently notice a little wetness at the ABS unit but that stopped with a slight nudge to the nut. The kill switch is fun. I got messed up a couple of times early on by it but now know the routine.
I have always enjoyed wrenching. I like to tinker, modify, learn and I have always enjoyed the challenge of trying something new and perhaps not quite proven - Chinese scoots over the name brand ones. I almost bought a Kymco 250 B&W at a great price and I know I would have enjoyed it but decided I would rather pay less, leaving $ room for mods and the fun of associating with folks like those who frequent this and other boards. I like to hang around the innovative, interesting people who are willing to take a little risk on something new.
That said, if the NDP Yamati is at least of the quality and dependability of my Roketa, I will be satisfied. I don't think the Roketa is an "A"-line" scooter but I also don't think mine is junk. I have seen five others like mine that my dealer recently received and sold, and none have been problems for him or the new owners. Comments about quality and parts availability from you and Lee do concern me. I did a search on ScooterBBs but could not find the part about NDP referenced by Lee. I think a little more investigation is in order.
ScooterOllie
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Post by Admin on Jun 7, 2006 12:58:36 GMT -5
Hey scooterollie, I could have been mistaken about the bbs and that company. It was some company out of Wichita though. I think you'll be fine. As Stan said, a lot of those parts are interchangable with other scoots and it sounds like you have the skills to fix it, should it become necessary.
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Post by scooterollie on Jun 7, 2006 13:09:38 GMT -5
Lee;
You were correct!!! I just did another search and found the thread from last fall. The bottom line is that the problem was eventually resolved for one guy and he became very pleased with NDP/BNSScooters. Don't know how other complaints were resolved.
ScooterOllie
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Stan