Best Engine Oil

[coolscootdude]

I was doing search in the forum about the engine oil question and couldnt find it. So I'm starting a new thread.

I read somewhere that mineral oil is the best for GY6 engines and it can also increase the speed by 2mph at top end because its so smooth and reduces the friction more than a synthetic oil.

Great gurus ! can you shed some light on this topic. What is the best engine oil for GY6 engine ?

[12string]

I wonder what the protection factor would be with just mineral oil? I wouldn't bet my engine on it.

[90GTVert]

kentalexander said:

I wonder what the protection factor would be with just mineral oil? I wouldn't bet my engine on it.

I think he meant mineral based oil (conventional) not straight mineral oil.

I'd use Mobil 1 Synthetic or Royal Purple Synthetic 10W40 if I wanted a good oil, but any name brand mineral based oil is alright if you change it at regular intervals. I doubt any oil will give you 2HP on a GY6 though. I saw 7HP from Royal Purple, but that car made around 400HP at the wheels. Get your GY6 to put down 100HP and you might see that 2HP gain.

[simony]

general accepted good practice is to run in on straight mineral multigrade oil 10/30 the switch to synthetic ( after about 1000 miles) this will give you best engine life and long term performance.

Tatake care out there.


S.

[scooterollie]

I'll get out my soap box again. These engines work at least twice as hard as auto engines. During break in (and after, if you wish) use a diesel grade 15W40 oil. This oil is formulated for diesel AND GAS engines subject to higher stresses. It still has the anti-wear additive, Moly, in it. This additive is not present in oils labeled "Energy Saving". In addition, it offers superior contaminant particle suspension. Find Shell Rotella 15W40 on the shelf at Walmart for a good price. Several scoot importers recommend this grade oil for their engines - from 50 cc through 300 cc, including CFMoto, Roketa and Linhai. If you want to change to synthetic after 1K miles, buy Shell Rotella 5W40 - just saw 1 gal. for $16.08 at Walmart, far better price/qt. than big name synthetics. If your scoot is kept outside and must start easily in very cold weather, the synthetic version, with it's lower viscosity, is probably a better choice. Any other name brand 15W40 or 5W40 is just as good. Only mention Shell because it is usually found most places.

[gy6rocket]

I run straight 40w (not for use in cold)

Thats what is stamped on the bike anyway. .

[scootdoggydog]

40w i never heard of that

[gy6rocket]

Its thick stuff, I run 40weight GTX HD (heavy duty)

I consider a single piston air cooled engine a pretty severe environment.

I see that a lot of people run 10w-40 but it says under my seat:

oil type: 40 w so i just stuck to that

From what the guy at the store told me 40w never thins out no matter how hot the engine gets.

It also states on the quart that it is for warm climate only, guess it is too thick for cold weather starts.

[loudest143]

I changed over all my fluids to synthetic prior to the 1000 mile mark. I can tell you that what came out of the motor was not like any engine fluid I had ever seen. I believe that many would agree the most important issue to address is changing out your chinese fluids. Anything is an improvement.

I use valvoline. I chose that because the wifey works for their parent company and we get discounts. Scientific approach, huh?

loudest143
fine day to build a snow scooter

[YellowScooter]

I used to change mine every other week at the Snappy Lube I worked at until the store was shut down. I would pull both oil plugs and use the hi-pressure 5w20 oil gun to flush it out. You'd be suprised at the metal flakes and sludge that came outta them drains when you do a flush. I did the same flush to the rear gearbox and got all the chinese crap and metal flakes out from in there too.
This winter I used 5w30 in the motor. It circulates through the motor a lot faster than the thicker oil. Since it was being changed so frequently, I wasn't worried about it being a lighter weight oil. It was still clear when I drained it. This spring when the temp gets to around 75-80+ I'll goto a thicker oil.
The gearbox gets 80w90 synthetic. From reading the other post, I concluded it should be good for at least a year. Some say it's good forthe life of the scoot, butI'll keep it changed at least anually, or whenever I got some time to kill.

[scootdoggydog]

loudest143 said:

I changed over all my fluids to synthetic prior to the 1000 mile mark. I can tell you that what came out of the motor was not like any engine fluid I had ever seen. I believe that many would agree the most important issue to address is changing out your chinese fluids. Anything is an improvement.

I use valvoline. I chose that because the wifey works for their parent company and we get discounts. Scientific approach, huh?

loudest143
fine day to build a snow scooter

how many miles did you go on chinese oil?

[loudest143]

My estimate would be around 500 miles/kilometers. I think I'm reading in kilometers, even though my speedo is in mph. I can tell you that the fluid (throughout) had a grey tint to it.... Not ideal, IMO. I thought it should be brown, bronze, or black, but grey? Looked like alien blood or something....

loudest143
*carbon based.

[scootdoggydog]

lol
i wanted to change mine out right away but couldnt resist doing a little riding first
i put 8km on then i changed it

the manufacturer recommended 15w40
all i could find was either 10w40 or 20w50

so i used spectrum plus 10w40 (k-mart special)
the oil that came out of mine was really dark like a cars after 3,000mi
and there were some metal flakes too

im using the motoman break in method

ill change the gear oil next i forget what the manufacturer recommends i think 15w40
but i bought some penzoil 80w90 gear oil and am going to use that

[scooterollie]

15W40 oil can be found at K-Mart, Walmart, etc. or any of the auto stores. It is usually in the truck oil section - which is sometimes even in a different isle. Shell Rotella is a commonly found brand but others will also be on the shelf.

[scootdoggydog]

yep i found it at k-mart, they only sell it by the gallon though for about $12 they also had penzoil and castrol 15w40 all for about the same price shell rotella about $12.20 penzoil $12.40 and castrol $12.60

[scooterollie]

Buying by the gallon is not all bad. Get yourself a plastic measuring cup, qt. size, from Walmart, etc. and you have enough oil for 3-4 changes, depending on whether you have the Honda or Yamaha design engine.

[vinorider]

Multi-weight oils (such as 10W-30) are made possible by adding polymers to oil. The polymers allow the oil to have different weights at different temperatures. The first number indicates the viscosity of the oil at a cold temperature, while the second number indicates the viscosity at operating temperature. So in otherwords a 20W-50 Motor Oil (which is what Yamaha now recommends for their scoots). Means that the viscosity (thinness) when the oil is cold is no lower than a 20 weight oil and when hot it's viscosity is no greater than a 50 weight oil. So when you start your scoot in cold weather the oil will still flow and not get thick like in the old days, and when you run at high ambient temps, it will not get too thin.

[JiuJitsu]

Scooterollie-

I bought the Rotella 15W40 as you suggested, but a Harley buddy at work says that is like putting in synthetic too soon if I use it right away, before break-in...

He says it will "blow by", will "not seat", will disrupt break-in.

I already bought what you said, but wondering if you have any comment on this before I do my first PDI change-out?

Thanks much!

[jprestonian]

loudest143 said:

I use valvoline. I chose that because the wifey works for their parent company and we get discounts. Scientific approach, huh?

loudest143
fine day to build a snow scooter

The Racer's Edge! :) Hey, I grew up in Ashland, KY.

Did Ashland sell that division to Marathon, btw?
.

[earlwb]

Juijitsu,
The synthetics lubricate too well, so well in fact that the engine won't wear in right. So you use regular mineral based oils until the engine has been worn in. Then you can switch to synthetics. So break it in using mineral based oils and then if you want you can change over to synthetics.

[scooterollie]

Jiujitsu,
The 15W40 is not a synthetic, it is a mineral based oil as Earl discusses above.. Your Harley friend does not know what he is talking about, to put it bluntly! Use the 15W40 oil for around 1K miles. At that point you may stay with it or switch to the diesel grade 5w40 synthetic.

Happy scootin!

[motomech]

I hate oil threads

I think changing the oil every 1,000 miles is more important than what brand/type weight is used. Even in these hot and busy engines, any brand name oil is not going to start breaking down inside the 1K mark.

In the past, very few scooters(and motorcycles, for that matter) ever accumulated enough mileage to "wear-out" an engine, if there is such a thing(they can just be continually rebuilt That's why I cringe when I read things like: "Honda engines last forever. I know a Helix with 130,000 miles". Well how many pistons, cylinders and crank rebuilds in that 130K?). No, scooters and motorcycles die from crashes, abuse and most of all, neglect.
But with the rising price of fuel, maybe that will change.

The readership here is, in general, very conscientious about their rides, but we must remember, we are still a small percentage of the two-wheeling public.

[JiuJitsu]

scooterollie-

I already did the 15W40 yesterday, as you advised, so please don't take this question the wrong way.

The guy I work with says that the moly in the 15W40 disrupts the proper break-in for the same reason as the synthetic, it's too slick. He says the moly makes the mineral based oil "lubricate too well" for break in, just as the synthetics...

Again, I already did it... I know the moly also has properties that protect the machine parts in other ways than just superior lubrication, and that's why you like it, but, do you think there is any thing to his claim the 15W40 lubricates "too well" for the engine to wear in right?

Thanks!

[scooterollie]

JiuJitso,
Don't worry, I won't take it the wrong way. You will hear all kinds of ideas about oils but most of them are just mindless speculation. Everyone has their own theories about oil, most all of which are not based on the facts. There isn't enough moly in the oil to make it that slippery or interfere with break in. Motorcycle guys have a phobia about moly because of the wet clutches in cycles. Same with synthetic oils and break in - this will really get some responses! Perhaps engines made 50 yrs. ago with poor tolerances might have been better off with mineral based oils. Some might argue that Chinese engines of today are no better assembled than those 50 yr. old auto engines here were. I doubt that, especially for the CFMoto and Linhai engines. KYMCO engines come with synthetic oil - according to CBX Man. More and more car engines do, also.

[alauda]

scooterollie said:

JiuJitso,
Don't worry, I won't take it the wrong way. You will hear all kinds of ideas about oils but most of them are just mindless speculation. Everyone has their own theories about oil, most all of which are not based on the facts. There isn't enough moly in the oil to make it that slippery or interfere with break in. Motorcycle guys have a phobia about moly because of the wet clutches in cycles. Same with synthetic oils and break in - this will really get some responses! Perhaps engines made 50 yrs. ago with poor tolerances might have been better off with mineral based oils. Some might argue that Chinese engines of today are no better assembled than those 50 yr. old auto engines here were. I doubt that, especially for the CFMoto and Linhai engines. KYMCO engines come with synthetic oil - according to CBX Man. More and more car engines do, also.

Here is a link to a good article on engine oils, with special emphasis on motorcycle applications, that should help to explain some of the points that "Scooterollie" is trying to "drive home" (sorry for the pun-couldn't resist). We hope it helps to dispel a lot of myths.

motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Slip - Sliding - Away,
Alauda <><

[JiuJitsu]

Fantastic post alauda, thanks.

I recommend anyone remotely interested read the whole thing, very well researched and written article. Kudos to Mark Lawrence!

I found this quote particularly interesting, and pertinent to my questions:

"Choosing a Break-In Oil for Your Motorcycle

The theory that synthetic oils should not be used during break in is the same as the theory that your engine will break in better if you use synthetic oil but add a dinner candle to your four quarts of engine oil. Frankly, I find this theory, um, questionable. Oh, hell, laughable. Corvettes and Porsches come from the factory with Mobil-1 in their engines. Remember, these engineers have designed world-champion engines for F1, Indy, Le Mans 24 hours, etc.

There's a lot of mythology surrounding break-in oil. It's simply not the case that synthetic oils are more "slippery" than conventional oils. Also, break-in of a modern engine is completely different than break-in of an engine made before about 1980. Modern engines, by comparison to something made in the '60s, are pretty much already broken in from the factory due to the fact that today we hold much tighter machining tolerances. The exception, of course, would be the Ural, a motorcycle made on a production line unmodified since about 1935.

I recommend you change your break-in oil at 75 to 100 miles, 100 to 150 kilometers. Your engine does shed a fair amount of metal particles in the first 20-50 miles, and I really can't understand why you would want this stuff floating around your bearings for the first 600 miles, 1000 kilometers.

I put Shell Rotella "synthetic" (87% group III) oil in my DL650 at 75 miles. It burns no oil, gets great gas mileage, and runs great. I recommend you switch to a good synthetic at your first oil change."

If you read the article, you will believe...

[earlwb]

The machining tolerances on these scooter engines is amazing in comparison to the 1960's and before. Now if you need a new piston and the cylinder is OK, you just get a new piston and install it along with the rings etc. it fits OK. years ago, you had to manually hone and fit each piston to its cylinder sleeve. Valves, you had to manually fit each valve to it's hole and seat, you pretty much don't have to today. Ad nauseum for all sorts of other manual fitting of parts too.

As for the Harleys, the big engines are still manually fitted for everything inside. Plus the engines are huge and unevenly expand as much as a tenth of a inch or more when hot. So one has to be careful with them. One needs to be easy on HD, as it is easy to blow the head gasket until the engine has heated up good.
You still manually fit each piston to its cylinder on a Harley. You cannot just bore out a cylinder either, it has to be mounted in a special jig and torqued down like it is in the engine and then bored out or honed to match the piston.
The newer Porsche designed engine is designed to not have to have all this manual fitting done to it. Plus it is liquid cooled too.
But the regular air cooled Harleys are all old technology from years past.

[kspring]

Feb 8, 2008 19:52:56 GMT -5 scooterollie said:

...Find Shell Rotella 15W40 on the shelf at Walmart for a good price. Several scoot importers recommend this grade oil for their engines - from 50 cc through 300 cc, including CFMoto, Roketa and Linhai. If you want to change to synthetic after 1K miles, buy Shell Rotella 5W40...

What is the reason for switching to a synthetic oil that has the same high temperature viscosity rating (40) as the conventional oil? Are synthetics used because they last longer and they provide better protection to the engine by not breaking down quickly? I always thought synthetics were used because they worked at wider temperature ranges.

[scooterollie]

Synthetics also usually resist molecular shear for a longer period of operating time. These small engines definitely qualify as "hard working small engines" and will put oils to the test. Actually, with frequent changes, good Dino oil will never cause engine harm of early failure. One gal. of Shell Rotella 15W40 at Walmart is about $10 and the synthetic version, Rotella 5W40, is about $17. On the CFMoto 250 and 50/150 cc scoots, that will give you at least 4 oil changes, 3 on the Linhai 257 cc engine. At either $2.50/qt. for the Dino or $4.25/qt. for the syn., neither is a bad price. That is 4K miles of driving at 1K mile change intervals. Compare that with $50-85 some shops charge for a scoot/cycle oil change!

[JiuJitsu]

May 16, 2008 12:52:15 GMT -5 scooterollie said:

These small engines definitely qualify as "hard working small engines" and will put oils to the test. Actually, with frequent changes, good Dino oil will never cause engine harm of early failure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That being said, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY endorse scooterollie's recommendation of "synthetic", "deisel" grade oils for motorcycle engines!!!

The case for this is a slam dunk, IMO.

I will not touch the issue of the conventional wisdom of avoiding synthetic for the break-in... I have followed it myself and will be switching to "synthetic" at 2K. Actually I will add synthetic to what remains of my non, blending is fine. There is minimal harm to be done by postponing the switch for so short a time with so many fresh changes. I switched out "shipping" oil at 20 miles, changed again at 300, and again at 1,000 (last night).

I will reiterate how good this article Alauda posted above is:

motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

The "synthetics" resist break down better, and are just plain "purer" than what is drilled and distilled. Actually, "true" synthetics are very expensive and difficult to obtain, what is currently sold as synthetic is usually a combination of very pure mineral oil with a little true synthetic in the blend. Legally, "synthetic" really only refers to properties, not processes or sources, since Mobil lost their suit against Castrol in 1999.
The "moly" additive in the diesel grade scooterollie recommends, molybdenum disulphide, adds "emergency" lubrication, lowers friction and increases gas mileage. A complete ( read - Deisel ) additive package adds properties of detergents, dispersants, buffers, Viscosity Index Improvers and corrosion inhibitors that keep the oil, and your engine, in a premium and pristine condition longer. The article goes into all this in much greater detail.

Another big difference that the synthetic diesel grade has over standard 10W40 is that it will remain on your machine's pertinent contact surfaces longer when the pieces are cold and not moving, substantially reducing friction at the most critical and damaging time, start-up.
The synth with the deisel additives, including moly, will cling better and provide much superior lubrication.

These are just some of the facts presented in the article. It is long, but really well written. If you are interested enough to have read this far through this thread, read the article!