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Post by tigger19687 on Jan 7, 2013 12:19:30 GMT -5
Ok, I couldn't find anything doing a search on here for Electric scooters. Anyone have any info on them ? Do they have as many running issues as the Gas ones do ? I like the idea of energy/emission savings. Barely make a sound. Just curious if anyone has used/fixed them in the past ? Thanks Added : If any one else is looking for Electric info, visforvoltage.org is the place. It is like here but for Electric.
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Post by inuyasha on Jan 7, 2013 12:38:43 GMT -5
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Post by tigger19687 on Jan 7, 2013 12:56:30 GMT -5
Thank you. I am looking at his site and learning a lot.
I have to find out how it all works in MASS. When I compare it to the reg for a 50cc Moped it doesn't add up. Since the law here says for a $40/2yr sticker Motorized Bicycle (Moped) would have a 50cc or under, auto trans, speed no more then 30mph... "motorized scooters" up to 20mph, only during daylight, but says nothing about a "motor" size . No Reg needed.
Both have to run the rules of the road, helmet yadda yadda.
I will have to e-mail the RMV to find out for sure if the "engine size" is what makes a M. Bicycle and M Scooters difference in classification.....
I so would love the Electric ones for short little trips .
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Post by prodigit on Jan 7, 2013 14:15:19 GMT -5
Electric mopeds have the same rules as bicycles. If it has lower than 1BHP or 750W, and a top speed of lower than 20MPH, and it has pedal mounts (in the Bush area it was determined that pedals did not necessarily needed to be used, but needed to be present), they're allowed to ride on bicycle lanes. Here in FL that means, no goggles or helmet or drivers license required (and especially no MSF).
However, the math does not add up for these bikes when you want to go economy. It costs just as much as a gasoline scooter, or more in the long term. I've done the calculation with 2 XTreme mopeds, the XB-700Li and the XB-610. The 610 comes with standard Lead Acid batteries, 4 of them for 48V, is good for going to the grocery store with, or anywhere in a 10 mile radius. After a good year, it's only good for 7,5 to 5 mile radius. After 1,5 to 2 years, or a good 1000-1500 miles, you will have to replace the batteries; costing you around $120. These are the cheapest bikes on the market, but their acceleration pretty much sucks, and they're really only good for city travel. Any road with a speed above 30MPH, and cars will constantly overtake you; and you feel unsafe.
The 700li is another machine! Acceleration is about on par, or just below a 50cc, upto 20MPH. Most of these machines go 23,8MPH fresh from the charger, 22,4MPH when nearly empty. Like with any chinese bike, don't trust the internal speedometer which tells you you're going 27MPH.
The 700Li can do longer with a battery, usually between 3 to 4 years. The first year, you have a 35Mile travel distance, or a radius of upto 15 miles. After 6 months, that distance goes down to 10. Depending on how much you travel, After a year and a half to 2 years, or 1500 miles, the travel radius is closer to 5-7 miles. After 3 to 4 years tops, the battery needs to be changed. The battery for the 700li costs about $700 + shipping, because it's a Lithium battery. And prices of Li continue to rise; so that despite modern advances in technology, the prices for batteries won't drop any time soon!
If you're planning on getting an electric bike, it makes no sense to buy a moped, unless you don't have a drivers license, or can't get a DL, and still need to transport yourself on a small route, but prefer not to use a bicycle.
If you really must try an electric bike, get one in the $4-5k range. They have much better LiFePo4 batteries, that are reported to last upto 9 years. They also can reach speeds of upto 55MPH. Though the replacement cost of the battery lies in the $2-2.2k range.
So aside from not being able to get a DL, the only few reasons I've heard, to get a fully electric bike are: 1- They are nearly noiseless 2- They are very low maintenance, basically maintenance free 3- They are very clean, no oil changes, no gasoline
What has always been used as a carrot on a stick is the low price of the charging (electricity), but here are some facts: 1- An electric bike with a 750W motor, perhaps uses 5-13ct on electricity to ride around on a charge. So they're promoted as costing only 13ct per charge. This is not true. They consume 13ct on electricity, but in order to charge the battery, the charger, and charging process both require more energy than what you've ridden (so we're talking about closer to 20-25ct on electric cost). Then there's the battery that needs to be changed. Just on the cost of batteries, divided by the amount of miles you've ridden, you're at a cost of round about $4,5 per 100 miles, or just a little over the price of gasoline of a 50cc.
2- Maintenance cost is lower, but parts are harder to find; and mainly only lower quality parts for mopeds.
3- The resale value of electric bikes is way lower than gasoline scooters. If you can get 50% of your new price you can be lucky. Most 500W, $500 electric mopeds I've seen on the second hand market, are sold for $200. The 700Li ($1600 new price), can not even be sold for $800, when sold with a $280 extension battery. More than likely it's second hand resale value is between $500 and $700, which is below 50% of the purchase price.
4- Electric Mopeds usually go 23MPH average. You can overvolt them, but then regenerative braking won't work anymore, and the controller can only handle between 7,4 and 9 extra volts; some do it with +12V, but the lifetime of the controller suffers from it. Each volt adds about 0.3MPH on the top speed, so adding 12V, only gets you to go 27 or 28MPH peak.
5- Most electric mopeds are made of crappy quality. Rusting bolts, rusting frames, weak frames torquing while turning; weak brakes not meant for faster than 25MPH speeds, mostly only drum brakes, etc...
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Post by prodigit on Jan 7, 2013 14:29:20 GMT -5
An electric bike usually only has 3 things that could break down: 1- The controller 2- The battery 3- The HUB or motor.
Also in this order will you find most common problems. The controller usually breaks from wear, usually a capacitor worn out it's lifetime in a good 10k miles, but can be easily replaced. Faster if the bike has been overvolted, or some kind of short happened somewhere on the bike. The battery usually wears out quicker, but it doesn't go without warning. The battery usually gradually starts losing charge, upto the point where it only has 1/3rd of the charge, and needs replacing. The motor usually is the last thing to break; because it's been protected by a fuse. Even when overvolting, usually the fuse breaks faster than the motor. However when overvolting, and going a lot of uphill rides, the motor tends to overheat and coils can break.
But generally, if you plan on keeping a bike stock, the only thing to worry about is changing the battery every x-amount of years (between 2 for Lead Acid, and 4 for Lithium). (BTW Lead Acid batteries usually have a shorter range too (20-25Miles, while Li usually has 35 miles, so less recharges on the Li are necessary).
Other scooter parts are about the same. It is estimated that unless you do a lot of emergency braking, an electric moped does not need brake pad changes over it's lifetime, due to the internal regenerative braking. It does need tube or tire changes though...
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Post by inuyasha on Jan 7, 2013 14:31:31 GMT -5
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Post by prodigit on Jan 7, 2013 14:33:07 GMT -5
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Post by turtle8 on Jan 7, 2013 15:29:24 GMT -5
Here is what you need:
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Post by inuyasha on Jan 7, 2013 15:37:07 GMT -5
Hi Very nice this one looks promissing as well Take care and ride safely dear friend Yours Hank
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Post by scootnwinn on Jan 7, 2013 15:59:27 GMT -5
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Post by WarrenS on Jan 7, 2013 17:27:39 GMT -5
I got mine in July 2010. Last year I rode it so much that my bigger scooters didn't get much use. It is an Xtreme XM500Li capable of 60 mph. The most miles on a charge I got was just over 50. It is licensed as a motorcycle. I had 2 problems at first. The tires weren't balanced and the brake handle was loose enough that the switch would stay on. There is a safety feature that cuts power when the brakes are applied or the side stand is down. A light comes on the dash every time you hit the brakes. The economy runs about 1 cent of electricity into the charger for every mile. There is no oil, gas, belts, gears or chains to mess with. I have to be really careful around pedestrians as it is very quiet. It is very quick off the line which takes some getting used to. scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pics&action=display&thread=47935
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Post by yoshidawg on Jan 7, 2013 20:51:08 GMT -5
When I first started scooting, my father got an ebike, can't think of the brand right now but it was great quality and had decent performance. Two settings, go far or go fast. The far setting limited it to 17mph, while the fast setting went a perfect 25mph up ANY incline. I rode it a few times but it wasn't really comfortable for me. To tall I guess, the bad thing about it was the limiting factor of a charge, I believe it was advertised as 25 mile range. Belt driven and super quiet. Once he replaced the batteries without first consulting me only to find the batteries were fine, it was a 5 cent fuse that wouldn't allow the batteries to charge. He still has it but no longer rides.
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Post by tigger19687 on Jan 8, 2013 10:47:16 GMT -5
Ok, My eyes are bleeding from searching all day and night Long post ahead I am in MA, so I am trying to get around the Lic plate thing, just want a sticker, scooter, needs not go over 40 but would be nice to go 35. I was originally looking at the 50cc scoots but really, once I started to see that they make Electric I was kinda hooked. hooked,,,, but not on the price. I was hoping to spend about $1000 total (after fixing up a 50cc china crap that is). But I really don't want to be fixing and playing with the thing all the time. MASS has some weird laws and nothing is point blank accurate ! Here is a link about registering a scooter .... www.mass.gov/rmv/forms/20017.pdfas you go down there is the 1st list there is MOTORIZED BICYCLE DEF ... #1 & 2 do not apply because it is Electric ... am I correct on that ? #3 is speed, but really there is nothing on the Electric stuff yet ... NOW, it says if NO to any, then it is NOT a Motorized Bi Go further down and there is LUV Def .... How do you know if it is FMVSS ? Does it say it on the Title ? Where on the Title or ANY information for the scooter does it actually SAY the speed ?? So lets say not more then 30mph, then it does not qualify as a LUV either .... They have a list, not sure how accurate it really is , but www.massdot.state.ma.us/portals/16/docs/Limited_Use.pdfNot really sure WHO did this, but I know that some of these speeds listed are not accurate. I have BICYCLES that go by me at 30-40, should they be made to be registered ? LOL I know scooters share the road better... And here is another link from their site about what is exactly what, yet the 25 mph is here and 30 mph on other pages ... sheesh www.mass.gov/rmv/alerts/scooter.htmI know when you look at the "selling" pages for these scooters they list the speeds HIGHER then what you really get. Anyway, can someone tell me what is 1) listed on the title (or Cert of Origin) as to the Body type / engine size / speed ? 2) what is REALLY the speed for the Watts listed (ie: 700w goes 20mph, 3000w goes 45mph) Is this list accurate at ALL ? > www.neoscooters.com/compare_electric_scooters.asp3) If someone bought a 2000W Li bat scooter, could you add more Battery power to it to make it faster ? I am just curious about this, as I see you all with the 50cc trying to make them faster .... Thanks all. I am still googling around on line And I have e-mailed the RMV for some clarification .... not that I am expecting to hear anything ... I e-mailed Zev Scooters about it and what is on their C/O and got some response that makes me think they were REALLY offended that I called it a Scooter or a "Motorized Bicycle" (cuz that is the Def for MASS on some of them). Direct quote about Vin " When you read a Vin code, the Vin numbers tell you the power. For instance, a ZEV 7100 would have a Vin number 1Z9 (Vin assigned by gov) E for Electric 71 as watts power, 95 as hp with fraction. So the DMV has only to glance at the Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin used to get a title to know it has at least 9.5 hp and is not a Moped or anything close. Many states state the rules allowing a loop hole. Many state says any vehicle with less than 5 hp is still a motorcycle, but does not need a license and insurance. So for those states, we make a 3600 watt bike placing it under the 5 hp rule. Mass is not one of those states. " After searching I am not sure this is correct, and NO WHERE can I find out that a 7000w is equal to 9.5hp and how that correlates to cc's ....... Starting to get a little fuzzy in the head with all of this.... and NO I will not CALL the RMV, that would be like shooting myself to get them to answer the phone at all OR get someone that KNOWS what they are talking about ..... ha ha ha
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Post by WarrenS on Jan 8, 2013 17:17:06 GMT -5
The speeds seem about right. The ones that list a top speed of 28 should qualify as mopeds as far as licensing goes. The serial number will tell the DMV what it is.
Mine wasn't listed but I knew it had to be licensed as a motorcycle. The first thing they asked was how many cc's. I said no cc's its electric. It was pretty funny.
There are electric bicycles that you pedal. These have a top speed of 20 and a range of about 20. You may get away without licensing them since they look like bicycles.
Additional batteries give more range but not necessarily more speed.
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Post by tigger19687 on Jan 8, 2013 18:20:46 GMT -5
Thanks
The serial number on the bike or the VIN# tells the speed ? That is what I am trying to find out, how would an Electric scooter qualify as the under 50cc. But it would have to be on the C/O for the Registry to figure it out as I am sure they would not take my word for it.
The ones I am looking at look like yours in your photo but have a "pass through step", but a tad smaller and do not go as fast. They "say" range from 30-50mph
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Post by prodigit on Jan 8, 2013 20:00:46 GMT -5
differs from state to state, but in general terms, a moped is a device that does not go faster than 20MPH. In actuality many do, and probably top out at 22-25MPH. They also are limited to 1BHP electric, or 2 BHP if it has a gasoline engine. They are treated like bicycles, don't need a lic. tag, endorsement, or insurance. In some states you might need goggles on them, or if they look suspiciously a lot like a scooter, a helmet; to stay out of trouble with law enforcement; but other than that, I can't think of any other law restriction.
The XM 5000li is a $5-6k bike, and in a whole other category! If you have the money to invest, IMHO, it's the only bike worth investing in. Either that one, or a bicycle with a fast rotation 1000W hub/motor installed.
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Post by tigger19687 on Jan 10, 2013 14:19:55 GMT -5
NOT looking to get a motorcyle. I gave up my M Lic a couple years ago, been riding for 30 years. I just want a little moped/scooter that all I need is a sticker for it. I like the look of the new scooters and that is what I am looking at. I know what the laws are for riding on them and have no issue with that. Just trying to figure out how big a size I can get in MASS but still stay at the Sticker level . But really this is be coming a huge fiasco. LOL I may JUST have to call the RMV and try to talk to someone. I bet they don't know the answer tho I got time before I want to buy anyway (Winter you know) and will need to save up a little extra. I will see what the forum has on it and see if anyone there knows.
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Post by inuyasha on Jan 10, 2013 16:15:07 GMT -5
Hi Im my Home state of CT a 3.7 kW e powered scoot is the same as a scoot with an gasoline engine with 5 BHP which is the cap here as to whether it is classified as a motorcycle or a motor driven cycle www.ct.gov/dmv/cwp/view.asp?a=810&q=430480Take care and ride safely Yours Hank
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Post by tigger19687 on Jan 12, 2013 9:29:03 GMT -5
Thanks Hank. I will look up all the other states, I have a book mark here somewhere I think... and see what they all say too. IF CT is that, maybe I can get the RMV here to do that too. You would think they would want good emissions... Anyway, If any one else is looking for Electric info, visforvoltage.org is the place. It is like here but for Electric.
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