first efi then engine mod?? Or Engine then EFI?

[gmblnmstr]

I have money burning a hole in my pocket...but can not get both past the wife at the same time. The two main mods I am thinking about...or I should say that I am obsessing about are an EFI system...Or...the 63mm bucket with a 400 pull stroker crank.

I've been drooling over a 63 stroker for a long time but the efi looks so interesting.

Man the modding bug has bit me again...very hard.

My initial thoughts are to go with the EFI upgrade first...since it is cold as hell here...and since my carb tuning skills suck...I might feel a nice gain that will satisfy me till the spring. But what upgrades will need to be done to an EFI package that will need to be changed when going from a 155 to a 180+ engine size?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks

[50cc]

I'd make all upgrades, then try to set up EFI on the already existing engine architecture to avoid reprogramming it twice. And don't think EFI is easier to set than a carb.

[prodigit]

I'd do the EFI first.
That way you can see the gains, and perhaps don't need an upgrade.
Besides, if you install the kit by yourself, re-programming it won't be too hard.

EFI is something I've always wanted to have on my small scoot.
Just as long as you're not going 100cc's higher with your engine mod, the EFI system should be able to handle it.

[rockynv]

I am getting lazey in my old age. See what you can get on a trade-in at a local dealer on a 200cc or 250cc EFI scooter. It may end up being cheaper and you will end up with a completely new bike with a dealer supported warranty. Everything will be new tires, seat, brakes, engine, cvt, paint, ect and guarrantied to work correctly.

[Blueboy5000]

To fully exploit the gains of an EFI, it would make sense to get you engine mods out of the way first. It would also behoove you to add a variable spark-timing CDI. The combination of a fully modded engine with an adjustable CDI and EFI would theoretically result in maximum engine power.

Installing an EFI and then modding the engine would make no sense as you would have to possibly modify the EFI set-up as you modified the engine.

[gmblnmstr]

Thanks guys..and please keep it coming

Roy: There really didn't seem to be much difference in described items included in the efi kits till you get over 200cc. And I don't remember the math but I know I will still be under 200 with the 63 cyl and stroker.

Rocky: As much as I would love to just run down and pick up another bigger scoot...There is a wife involved who feels she as the right to continually monitor my hobbies and cash expenditures...lol So as long as she only sees one or two small boxes a month...all is good. Plus I bought this scooter last May...and my motorcycle in August...so trading is a bit premature. But if I did trade...I know a shop that has some tzr's, rgv's, and nsr's...all in the 2stroke 250 variety that I would love to get my filthy hands on one of those.

Now to further explain so people don't say..."just stay with the carb"...I like the idea of being able to plug into a device and know the data...if I'm on or not. My level of experience with carbs...I can guess but not know how close or far I am from optimal. And last summer the best I could do with my carb was get close. I would have it adjusted for the heat of the day...running nice and good..then the night would feel off...then the next day rain and humidity...feel off again. With a carb I felt like I was adjusting more then enjoying. So if I can get an affordable efi kit that gets me close enough...I'm on it...lol

[gmblnmstr]

Blue: It's been awhile so I forget the brands...but do you mean like a denso or moroso? The kind for cars? Could you show me one? The only cdi's I know about are the quote unlimited speed cdi's...ac or dc boxes. Plus I might be wrong...but the kits that I have been looking at APPEAR to bypass that ignitors advance so as to run that function from the ecu. Once again that is what I thought I understood to be happening with the efi kits and could be completely wrong.

[wangchicken]

yes its run from ecu , install is straight forward just have to be thorough, not easier than a carb , doesnt matter if you go efi first it will learn and compensate for minor things ,

[justbuggin]

go for the EFI system from ecotron and get the full kit with O2 sensor and CDI i have one on my scooter and works great. but one thing if you go EFI you will be better off with an 11 pole stator upgrade as well

[inuyasha]

Hi
Be aware that it is time and labor intensive
scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=discussion&action=display&thread=37715
But once done i think you will find it very worth while
Im loving my aprils efi its hard to go back to carburated systems on my other scoots
Take care and ride safely
Yours Hank

[tvnacman]

Jan 6, 2013 10:26:20 GMT -5 justbuggin said:

go for the EFI system from ecotron and get the full kit with O2 sensor and CDI i have one on my scooter and works great. but one thing if you go EFI you will be better off with an 11 pole stator upgrade as well

your going to need to power an electric fuel pump ,injector the ecu , you will need extrapower to keep it stable dcv output .

John

[snugglebunny]

now i have NEVER done any mods to my engine
nor have i added a EFI system.

but in my mind i think it would be better
to do w/e mods you wanna do, get it running really well.
then add the EFI system, then tune the EFI to the mods
at least thats what i would do.

but im prob totally wrong

[wangchicken]

I added the 11 pole with Alien motion Lipo battery,

[gmblnmstr]

Snuggle: That is kind of where I am at right now...without a point of reference or comparison...I don't know if I am getting everything out of my mods I have already done.

What kind of started things was looking at a different carb (a Mikuni) hoping for maybe a better or more efficient spray to get a little more power. That is when I stumbled onto the efi kits. At first before I found the thread Inyu linked I was planning on get a cvk30 (as thats what the shop I am buying my stuff recommends to truly get the most out of the 63 stroker)

Roy: I'm a greedy sob...I want it all. Lol I mean performance, torque, and raw horsepower. Growing up I was always a v8 kind of guy. My friend actually presented me with two options for parts packages. 1) water cooled 61 mm with external oil cooler and a 300 crank, but I am opting for 2) 63mm with 400 stroker, worked head (28 in 27 ex valves), matched cam etc.

So as you can see I am convinced that I need both...and by spring I shall have both. Lol.

I really think I am going to get the EFI first. My rational....hopefully by getting it dialed in with my current setup...my current setup will keep me happy for at least another month or two.

[Deleted]

You know anytime we get into it we're taking a chance of fouling something up bad so the question here is whether you've done all the cheaper and less complicated upgrades already ... We should upgrade in some order because I just watched a guy spend a half a fortune and completely rebuild the engine yet he still had the stock CDI... Could have spent $20 and been done upgrading in 5 minutes, whether or not it floats your boat that's how we do things.

It's not just about the money, part of the reason is that doing things backwards is just asking for trouble, one little mistake and it's another $50 and if things get worse a new 150cc is not only $400 but part of the reason why folks aren't getting 50 and 70 thousand miles out of an engine.

The cheapest upgrade is still to hunker down in headwind, you'll see a 5-10 mph upgrade just from that, how about the exhaust, you done that?
The coil, the spark plug, the intake, the oil catch can?
Failure to install an oil catch can at this or an earlier stage is only going to result in a blown head gasket, that's part of the reason why we do things in order.

The sliders, the belt, the variator, the clutch?
The carb, the intake manifold, the rear shock, the tires front and back?
Yes, you really need top of the line tires as well.
Could start here...

You're almost to the stage of a 4-valve head...
So you really should have done the above first.
Maybe around here...

Still I'm thinking a new camshaft might be cheaper.

But right about here is where your upgrade comes in to play.
Now you can bore out the engine and put in an EFI

[wangchicken]

transmission and cvt Are tuned to match the out put of the motor ,

[tvnacman]

well guys keep in mind what your goal is . if your looking for faster accleration and able to goose it up hill then just a bbk will handle it , you may loose a few miles mph . After bbk install your tork is increased , but your top rpm drop off . So you can climb hills and increase off the line and mid range . Keep in mind you can spin higher gear ratio . So if you keep stock gearing you will loose top end . To max output of an engine is in fuel air mixture . I would consider cvt tuning , larger diameter variator , with riders weight play around with slider/roller weights . Some guys like to play with clutch and contra springs . I don't belive in nuteral drops and hitting trannys hard .

GMB my phone number is in my banner your welcome to call with any and all questions !

John

[mainepeace]

Get EFI first. Makes any change later MUCH EASIER to tune. Basically, if its an airflow mod the system will self correct.

I have a 50cc EFI kit (demo model) I can sell for $75 off retail. $325 shipped.

Greg

[rockynv]

There is more than to this than just bolting on an EFI. The fuel pump package takes a lot of wattage to produce the 75+ psi to run effectively so many EFI bikes have at least a 300 watt stator. To take full advantage of the power EFI is capable of an 11:1 compression ratio improves things a lot and now to get things moving a 4 valve head is required to take full advantage. Then you can start getting close to the magical number of 1 hp output per every 10cc displacement. With that extra HP you also need to consider final gearing along with balancing the clutch and variator. With the extra HP you may also experience additional CVT heat and eccelerated drive train wear. An oil cooler would also be required to help keep the extra HP from burning things out.

Of course to me at this point a new EFI 250 designed from the ground up to be a high output EFI bike starts looking like the cheaper alternative but that is just me.

I now have 13,000 trouble free miles on mine and have no regrets. I use the extra free time to go for rides in the country and on fishing trips across the state on the bike.

Sometimes I just take a day ride to cut out from Tampa to St Augustine down I4 to pick up some Empanada's from the Old Spanish Bakery or stop at the Heritage for a Spanish breakfast. Cuising at the 80 mph that traffic runs at on I4 it is not that long of a ride.

[Deleted]

I almost forgot...

You'll need an oil cooler as well.

Here's your problem, this being an air cooled engine, the maximum speed is limited to the balance between the heat your power upgrades generate and the outdoor temperature, meaning the statement that a 150cc engine is incapable of sustaining speeds over 60mph holds very true.

In the summer, I don't care what you have done to the engine, it won't go much past 50 on a hot day... It might initially accelerate past 50 but once it gets hot, the scooter will slow down.
One full throttle acceleration and these gy6's are up to temp, or not long after.

The reason is that as the engine heats up the fuel will ignite spontaneously as it compresses, so much so that it pre-ignites and causes power loss, it eventually balances out thou in extreme cases it can cause a total engine shut down.

The more power options you add, the faster it gets hot and the hotter it gets.
Once it reaches a certain temperature, your scooter loses power.
The only way to get around this is to get an oil cooler.

It won't solve the problem completely, but it's an upgrade that also allows you to hit top speeds longer and once you get into a certain amount of upgrades it's pretty much necessary.

An EFI'd engine should definitely have an oil cooler.

Which...
You should be running premium 93 octane fuel already.
That helps stabilize pre-ignition detonation.

[rockynv]

Jan 6, 2013 15:27:38 GMT -5 @8307c4 said:

You know anytime we get into it we're taking a chance of fouling something up bad so the question here is whether you've done all the cheaper and less complicated upgrades already ...

The cheapest upgrade is still to hunker down in headwind...

A Puig Sport Fairing made a big difference for me. Increased fuel economy by about 10% to 15% and acceleration from when you just begin to feel the wind on up to interstate speeds about 20 to 90 mph without having to hunker down etc.

My former mechanic wants to play with the bike and believes he can get it to 120 but I am happy to leave it as it is. He was on the Honda factory race team before he opened his own shop and really wants to play with the Aprilia. I told hem that I'll let him play with mine after I see him buy his one himself and proves out the mods on his own bike.

[gmblnmstr]

8307: Where those directed at me?? or just general. Because maybe I should have been more clear...this is not a stock engine...I have already done several stages. Now I'm glad you are happy with a cdi and exhaust but I was not. I am a little past that stage in the pursuit of torque and just general tuning towards how I ride.

I know buying a efi 250 or bigger would seem like a solution...but I don't like the bigger scoots. And I'm not really tuning towards top speed...I want to do wheelies and burnouts...lol Even though it will do faster then the 80 km/h (according to the china meter) that I normally zip around at I very rarely like to go faster on these little 10" wheels

Tvna: What do you mean by neutral drops and hitting the tranny hard? Currently my setup is ruima var with stock 14g rollers I put the stock back because my stepson was riding it back and forth to work...but now he is not so I ordered some 13 slide. 1250 clutch springs...those are what came with the FM clutch/bell and a 1500 contra with Koso rear disk.

[50cc]

Some people mentioned these 'trendy' aftermarket CDIs with the adjustable timing function. Well, I would strongly disagree on using one since they can seriously damage your engine if you advance your timing too much. Just use the regular CDI and your EFI scoot will run just fine.

[prodigit]

Jan 7, 2013 2:38:07 GMT -5 @8307c4 said:

I almost forgot...

You'll need an oil cooler as well.

Here's your problem, this being an air cooled engine, the maximum speed is limited to the balance between the heat your power upgrades generate and the outdoor temperature, meaning the statement that a 150cc engine is incapable of sustaining speeds over 60mph holds very true.

In the summer, I don't care what you have done to the engine, it won't go much past 50 on a hot day... It might initially accelerate past 50 but once it gets hot, the scooter will slow down.
One full throttle acceleration and these gy6's are up to temp, or not long after.

The reason is that as the engine heats up the fuel will ignite spontaneously as it compresses, so much so that it pre-ignites and causes power loss, it eventually balances out thou in extreme cases it can cause a total engine shut down.

The more power options you add, the faster it gets hot and the hotter it gets.
Once it reaches a certain temperature, your scooter loses power.
The only way to get around this is to get an oil cooler.

It won't solve the problem completely, but it's an upgrade that also allows you to hit top speeds longer and once you get into a certain amount of upgrades it's pretty much necessary.

An EFI'd engine should definitely have an oil cooler.

Which...
You should be running premium 93 octane fuel already.
That helps stabilize pre-ignition detonation.

On my BMS TBX-260 EFI, I could ride 75MPH all day long, even in the hot S-Florida summers!
I found that mid-grade was the best fuel.
It is true that 87 oct fuel pre-ignites on a hot engine; but 89 does not.
With 91 fuel I had lower performance too.
Top speeds of 87 and 91 fuel was about the same. Top speeds of 89 was between 3 and 5 MPH faster on a hot engine.
My bike was watercooled though.

[gmblnmstr]

Talked to my friend and he suggested these...although he also said it was probably overkill...but would attach to my scoot and I would not have to worry about electrical.

This 12 pole:

Attachments:

[gmblnmstr]

and this 16v300

Attachments:

[wangchicken]

cool that 12 pole is GY6?? How Much$$

[gmblnmstr]

Yep...gy6. The 12 pole and fly 150rmb ($24) and the rect another 180rmb ($29)...the shipping is what would kill the price though.