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Post by prodigit on Oct 23, 2012 21:53:51 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but I think I read somewhere that there are bikes with carbs that have an electronic adjuster on the carb, to keep fuel to air ratio's optimal?
What's the difference between that and an EFI?
Seemingly they're less efficient than EFI.
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Post by skuttadawg on Oct 23, 2012 23:21:39 GMT -5
EFI the fuel is pressurized with an electric pump and sprayed into the engine where a carb relies on vacuum from the engine . Think of it like this , normal breathing vs a health disorder where oxygen is ether pumped or feed via compressed tank to help those who can not breath on their own . Carbs can have an enricher but are nothing like EFI that is computer controlled . EFI is by far better in every way to a carb . A carb you have to adjust the idle and jetting by hand where EFI the ECU does it for you . www.ecotrons.com sells EFI kits and I think Greg sells them too |
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Post by Blueboy5000 on Oct 24, 2012 12:01:44 GMT -5
The electronic adjuster is another term for cold-start enricher. It is not a SMEC era Ford/Dodge of the late 70's and early 80's automobile. It is not a truly electronically controlled carb.
There is no way to exceed the efficiency of an EFI with any type of carburetor. EFI is king.
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Post by prodigit on Oct 24, 2012 17:48:07 GMT -5
oh, ok! Kind of like an electronic choke!
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Post by Blueboy5000 on Oct 27, 2012 9:39:42 GMT -5
oh, ok! Kind of like an electronic choke! Precisely. Except the function of a choke is much like a flu on a fireplace, it restricts air, causing a rich condition to help the engine warm up. Once warm, a choke opens and allows more air to the mixture,leaning it. Our bikes use enrichers, the enricher feeds more fuel to a cold engine, to produce a rich condition used for starting/warming. The difference is that a choke system regulates air, and and enricher regulates fuel. They do not work in the same fashion, but achieve the same desired effect. |
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Post by prodigit on Oct 27, 2012 18:13:33 GMT -5
Does this enricher also use the pilot jet to compensate for the mixture in higher revs? (eg: if the engine is running fine, but at WOT runs a bit lean, using the pilot jet to enrich the mixture a bit?
If it does, then it's an EFI (though only injecting the pilot jet).
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Post by prizmm on Oct 27, 2012 18:41:25 GMT -5
that small engine EFI kit is tempting,,,,, oh boy,,, here we go again,,,,,now what to tell the better half ,,,hmmm
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Post by Blueboy5000 on Oct 28, 2012 6:59:44 GMT -5
No. The enricher is a separate passage, the idle and main jets do not work with the enricher. The enricher is a passage that uses a bimetal switch to extend and retract a needle valve (solenoid).
EFI uses a throttle body, a high pressure loop-style fuel feed system, an o2 sensor, a manifold vacuum sensor, and and exhaust sensor and a CPS style injector nozzle. The only moving part in an EFI is the metering plate (throttle butterfly). By constantly reading the duty cycles of the sensors, the ECU (control unit) changes the pressure of fuel supplied to the injector, thus metering the mixture, once per revolution of the engine.
This system allows for much more precise mixture regulation, as it can change mixture thousands of times per minute. No carb could ever do that. This is why there are no more carbs on cars.
Eventually, all scooters will use EFI, all the high end bikes are fully EFI. Our gy6 still use carbs, but even the cheapo Chinabombs are rapidly converting to EFI as it produces much better fuel economy, power and way way less emissions. Plus way less moving parts= less frequent adjustment (if any at all, once you get set up) and since there is only 1 moving part, far less stuff to wear out.
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Post by prodigit on Oct 28, 2012 10:00:11 GMT -5
Let's just hope the chinese will also develop their efi's; that are a few hundred bucks cheaper than current. At this moment, it still makes little sense to replace a $50 carb with a $400 EFI system on an $800-1500 scoot
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Post by mainepeace on Oct 28, 2012 15:14:24 GMT -5
The current EFI kits (which I sell for $350) are rock bottom in price. The issue is that there are lots of expensive parts that need to be included. Oxygen sensor, CPU, injector, new throttle body assembly, fuel pump. Not too expensive each but all together it adds up to an expensive kit. When buying in bulk they are much cheaper, obviously, so if 10,000 scooters came with EFI systems pre-installed they would only add about $200 to the cost of the overall scooter.
Perhaps when I get my scooter manufacturing plant setup I can offer scooters with EFI. Not gonna happen soon though.
I will say that if you are willing to spend 8 hours installing and 2 weeks tuning, you can get a great increase in mileage, power, and reliability. Not to mention cold weather starting and airflow modifications!
Greg
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Post by prodigit on Oct 28, 2012 20:08:43 GMT -5
It's an improvement indeed, however, I do believe that an EFI set is still a bit overpriced.
Pretty soon, when it becomes a standard on all scoots, prices will come down to perhaps $100 per set (I guess). I mean, the CPU probably costs $8 to manufacture, and gets sold for $25-35. If the chinese would sell them, they'd probably be for sale for $10.
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Post by volvonerd on Oct 28, 2012 22:50:48 GMT -5
The current EFI kits (which I sell for $350) are rock bottom in price. The issue is that there are lots of expensive parts that need to be included. Oxygen sensor, CPU, injector, new throttle body assembly, fuel pump. Not too expensive each but all together it adds up to an expensive kit. When buying in bulk they are much cheaper, obviously, so if 10,000 scooters came with EFI systems pre-installed they would only add about $200 to the cost of the overall scooter. Perhaps when I get my scooter manufacturing plant setup I can offer scooters with EFI. Not gonna happen soon though. I will say that if you are willing to spend 8 hours installing and 2 weeks tuning, you can get a great increase in mileage, power, and reliability. Not to mention cold weather starting and airflow modifications! Greg Can you post or pm me a link to the efi kits you sell? I can't seem to find it on your site. |
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Post by mainepeace on Oct 29, 2012 3:00:43 GMT -5
We resell the Ecotrons kit. They are not listed on our website yet.
Greg
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Post by gmblnmstr on Jan 4, 2013 8:53:12 GMT -5
I was actually really interested in the Ecotron till I read this.
Maine:
"I will say that if you are willing to spend 8 hours installing and 2 weeks tuning, you can get a great increase in mileage, power, and reliability."
Maine is that true?? A 2week plus tuning time frame?
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Post by mainepeace on Jan 4, 2013 21:04:38 GMT -5
The issue is that not enough people have given feedback for REAL WORLD programming for the ECU. The stock parameters are very good. It does have a brain and it learns your riding style. However, for maximum performance you can spend time tuning.
It has been over 1 1/2 years since I installed the Ecotrons kit. I have not played with the programming since I originally set it. It took several weeks to get the programming down. Now I believe Matt is using my setup and other feedback I have given as the base for 50cc setups.
You can use your smartphone to tune the EFI kit with a bluetooth serial port adapter. Or you can use any computer with a USB to serial cable.
Greg
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Post by rockynv on Jan 4, 2013 22:09:16 GMT -5
That cost is why I went with a scooter that had EFI from the get-go. It was only a few hundred more than the equivalent scooter with a carb and much less expensive than buying a carb equipped scooter and adding EFI. Add that it was aready programmed to meet the most stringent environmental standards in the world and got 70 to 80 mpg from a 250 just makes it all the better. No modifying the exhaust header or engine block to install the Lambda sensor, etc and fully warrantied.
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Post by prodigit on Jan 5, 2013 1:10:07 GMT -5
Now can you imagine what fuel mileage you can get from a 50-125cc engine with efi?
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Post by skuttadawg on Jan 5, 2013 2:07:21 GMT -5
I can tell you this having Ducatti EFI on my Echarm , I NEVER have to rejet , adjust idle speed or fuel/air mixture , have stalling or bogs and other carb issues . Always instant start , 80 MPG on a 286lb 150 , blazing performance as I have dusted ever scooter I raced except a Honda Silverwing which had a much larger engine . Often I hear the fuel pump start up when I turn the key and I wait a second until its done the hit the start button . Everytime instant start from 18 degrees to over 100 regardless if the engine is hot or cold .
Even though it has more parts like ECU and sensors its simpler theory being an electric fuel pump and spray nozzle instead of jets , floats and needles that a carb uses .
EVERY person I let ride my Echarm was impressed how its like a rocket from take off to to end with instant throtlle response everytime . Even at 50 MPH I can let off the throttle and hit WOT with it throwing my 200 lb self back some .
Think of it like this , if you breathe normal your like a carb . If you have trouble breathing you have an air pump or tank of compressed air to improve your airflow . If you breathe good and use an airpump you get more air than just enough to live .
My Echarm is my first EFI two wheeler and I am light years beyond impressed and I know EFI is the way to go for reliability , MPG and best of all performance
If you think an EFI is a simple bolt on and it works you may be in for a surprise . Yes it may take a while to fine tune as it has a programmable ECU that you can do with any computer as proprietary ECUs may only be done with dealer only computers or software instead of the options like RPM and timing that the Ecotrons kits offer . Once you get it dialed in you only need to put in a cap full of Seafoam every other gas fill up to keep the fuel system clean
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Post by wangchicken on Jan 5, 2013 5:22:06 GMT -5
Every thing You Will need Comes In the kit throttle body O2 sensor map sensor head temp sensor air intake sensor fuel pump regulator Efi controlled Cdi ECU pre built harness even hose clamps very detailed instruction complete wiring diagram , Tuning program and data cables I got mine for 300.00 Ecotrons.com Matt Good Guy
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Post by rockynv on Jan 5, 2013 6:19:24 GMT -5
The Ducati/Minarelli EFI is also on the Aprilia and if they maintained the Ducati style electrical connections on the Echarm you can actually put a Ducati tuner/attenuater called a FatDuc on the scooters equipped with that system that increases low to mid range performance by richening the mix without having to change the EFI programming. This also helps the bike run cooler and opposite to what you would think increases fuel economy too.
I have not tried it myself but it is tempting. The bike as it sits upsets quite a few riders of mid sized sport bikes the way it pulls away from stops. They just hate not being able to keep up with a scooter even if its just in the short race.
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