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Post by inuyasha on Oct 22, 2012 18:11:59 GMT -5
Hi My Puma Built by ZHEN was a very good quality scoot  Beautiful fall day 004 by inuyasha50, on Flickr  Beautiful fall day 007 by inuyasha50, on Flickr Short ride on the Puma The quality of some of these Chinese scoots is improving by leaps and bounds not all of them are created equal, its quite arrogant IMHO to make a decision on here-say and assumptions and not on the true facts and actual knowledge of the scoot in question And would i get another Puma ;D yes i would, I didn't buy "April" because she was Italian made and supposedly better then a Chinese scoot i bought her just because i wanted one Take care and ride safely Yours Hank |
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Post by naseqp on Oct 23, 2012 18:50:45 GMT -5
Since I'm 61 I can play the I remember game.
I DO remember the late 50's and early 60's when Japanese-made (or called the more degogatory jap) was just as bad or worse than chinese just a fews years ago.
After all we had just destroyed them in the war just a few years before, they couldn't possibly build anything better than the good old uSA.
My neighbor across the street Dad bought one of the first Toyota pickups in Memphis. We laughed at it.
People joked that when the fenders buckled , you could see beercan paint (cans WERE much thicker in those days LOL)
Anyway, move forward by the mid eighties the top 5 banks in the world were Japanese, in what like 20 years? They owned a huge rep for quality.
The dragon has done it in half the time.
Scary but true.
Oh, I stopped laughing a long time ago.
I do drive a 2003 AlphaSports branded-eTon Beamer daily (we used to sell the line way back in 03 and 04 ahead of our time I guess.)
Speedometer broke at 497 (miles?) in 2005 so have no idea mileage but I drive it alot.
And also, we are getting back in the business soon. the time is here now.
Oh and very nice looking scoot inuyashi
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Post by jwalz1 on Oct 24, 2012 14:34:47 GMT -5
Scootnwinn,
I agree with a lot of what you said. Not everything but most of it. I have touted the merits of my Kymco a few times and the fit and finish is not as nice as the Burgman, but it is about the same performance wise.
But what I think you are trying to say, and I agree with, is that for someone looking to buy a new scoot, you should at least consider and try one of the "names" when doing your research. I still think the Chinese bikes are great bargains depending on your use, but if it is lots of freeway or touring you won't regret spending the extra.
I am told by Kymco owners that I should expect at least 50,000 miles out of it easy, and the ability to do whatever speed the situation dictates can not be underestimated. I have only had mine up to 85 and still pulling out on a rural road to see what it would do, and if I need it, the speed is there without complaint from the machine. Once or twice on the freeway I have needed that extra power to avoid getting into a trap, and it was nice to have. I don't want to think what could happen without the power to get out of the way sometimes.
Nice looking bike by the way. And as far as Honda goes, best vehicle maker on the planet. Never owned one of their bikes but several cars including my current S2000. They have all been bulletproof.
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Post by quest4fire on Oct 25, 2012 16:59:45 GMT -5
I think people used to joke about the styling on the early Hondas. Unusual to say the least. But from the start, Honda motorcycles were observed to be like Swiss watches (they used to be mechanical), since the quality was intimidating. Then the Hondas started getting bigger and more powerful. There was never an awkward stage from a functional standpoint. The quality was jaw dropping. They were just about perfect. The other Japanese manufacturers that followed Honda were also outstanding. Intense quality control. Unprecedented power output for small mass produced engines. We had a great time on those early Japanese bikes. Fuel economy was the best ever. They ran and ran, we just changed oil and spark plugs and tires. And lubed the chains. The Chinese are just making better and better copies of the Japanese machines. They have a long way to go, but I have no idea how long before they get close. ;D
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Post by spandi on Oct 25, 2012 19:35:11 GMT -5
You have to remember that China is still evolving for it's command economy past, unlike Japan it did not have an industrial history to serve as a guide, nor did it start from a clean slate (with massive American aid) in rebuilding it's infrastructure at the end of WWII. Give credit were credit is due. Are they "as good" quality wise as the Japanese?....not yet, but just look at how the size, power and workmanship of their Scooters/motorcycles have come along in just the last 5-7 years. As good? no., but getting closer, and coming in fast.
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Post by cliftonc on Oct 25, 2012 20:10:57 GMT -5
The first Honda I saw was in 1960 or '61, when one came into a gas station near the house, while I was there with dad while a tire repair was going on. I was just a kid, probably a 2nd grader. The bike was, I found out later from magazine ads, a Honda Dream 305, with the pressed steel frame. Red. I thought it was the best-looking motorcycle I had ever seen, and in a way, still think so.
I still remember the station owner, when asked about it, said "It's one o' them Jap things. I ain't heard of Honda, and don't 'spect I will again". HAHAHAHA!
I can't help but wonder if one or more of the Chinese brands will turn out the same way. In the 1930s-60s, every European bike maker used NSU engines of some kind in their small bikes. In the future, Znen maybe?
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Post by yoshidawg on Oct 25, 2012 20:30:08 GMT -5
I too remember the term"Jap-Crap". What Americans called Toyota and Datsun back in the 60's and 70's. Nobody wanted tools made in Japan. Or anything else really. But China seems different, like they have no ethics code, sure the quality has gotten better but still FAR behind anything else. And these dealers don't really want to help once it's out the door. Co-worker has a TaoTao with less than 400 miles on it, wont start, he's done all he can do but can't figure it out. Got a real tight budget too. The dealer he bought it from wont work on it for free and he can't afford their rates. The best I could do for him was to let him try one of my known good coils to eliminate that, he'd already changed the plug, so good coil, good plug. Still no start. Still no help from dealer, they'll sell him any part he needs-retail of course. And those guys are high! He's not close enough for me to want to go to his house and try to work on his scoot, and I don't want him coming to my house to read ScootDawg forums. However I do feel for him....
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Post by spandi on Oct 25, 2012 20:49:04 GMT -5
Yep, I can remember when "made in Japan" was junky stuff you got in a gum-ball machine for a nickel.
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Post by quest4fire on Oct 26, 2012 7:38:56 GMT -5
They learned that high quality stuff sells better. And Sochiro Honda existed. Servicemen in Japan wanted good stuff, not junk.
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Post by naseqp on Oct 26, 2012 11:26:04 GMT -5
Yep, I can remember when "made in Japan" was junky stuff you got in a gum-ball machine for a nickel. Nickel hell! Try a penny! Cokes were a nickel. lol Only problem i was too young to drive anything other than by bicycle. |
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Post by loncindawg on Oct 26, 2012 13:00:37 GMT -5
Like many Mexicans, I didn't expect much from Italika until I got one of their scooters, and couldn't appreciate what made them different until I read this and other threads on this forum. Billionaire Ricardo Salinas Pliego -- owner of the second-largest television network in Mexico and a few of the larger retail chains -- struck a deal with Loncin some years ago. This guy has beaucoup vision and, apparently, he envisioned a need for affordable, reliable transportation within the country. Loncin's scooter and motorcycle components are assembled at Italika's large, modern facility in the state of Toluca. By all accounts, there is a great deal of quality control, with Italika engineers traveling to the Loncin factory for frequent consultation and onsite inspection. One can download well-written, Spanish-language manuals from their Web site, in case you've lost the one that came with your scooter, motorcycle, or quad. They include glossaries, since folks in different parts of Latin America have different names for some vehicle parts. Yes, Italika re-exports its finished products to Central and South America. Also, through their site, you can order highly affordable replacement parts for your ride. These arrive quickly via one of the many national and international couriers that operate within the country (the postal service isn't used, though it has slowly improved over the years). You can also order from the authorized Italika service centers that blanket the country -- albeit with that particular independent operator's considerable markup tacked on. Even my little border town has one -- right down the street from where I live, so if my scooter ever failed to start (hasn't happened yet after a year and a half of ownership), I could just roll it on over there and have my buddy Moisés, the Italika-trained head mechanic there, have a look at it. New Italikas come with a one-year warranty. In order for it to remain in effect, one must adhere to the schedule that is outlined in the professionally edited and clearly written service log that comes with every Italika. During that first year, each required service is dirt cheap -- usually less than twenty dollars. Our service center is prompt, courteous, and respectful of one's ride. My scoot was always ready in a couple of hours. Moisés would call me on my cell phone when it was ready. There are also Italika-branded spark plugs, lubricants, and batteries. Moisés prefers NGK plugs, and quietly puts those in. Recently, I mentioned in this forum that my stock battery was beginning to fail. Well, Moisés charged it up for me in a couple of hours for around three dollars and it's been like new ever since. Thanks to this amazing forum, I've become a GY6 enthusiast and have been gearing up to do my own maintenance and modifications (my Haynes manual has become my reading material of choice). I have even contacted NCY and it seems that I might be able to become their distributor in this region, though I still have lots to learn before I can do that. I love Vespas, and these can be purchased 25 miles away in San Diego, but I can't afford one and taking it in for scheduled service would be tough, since I have my English school to run and can't wait around until the service is complete. Besides, tinkering is lots of fun, and I might even start doing mods and maintenance for locals, though few people ride Italikas here. They are highly affordable at Walmart and at Salinas Pliego's own Elektra stores, but there is the stigma of "Mexican" attached to them. Also, it doesn't help that people notice that Elektra's bill collectors ride Hondas, as do most of the fast-food delivery guys. But in Veracruz, Mexico City, and other parts of central Mexico, scooters are very popular and, apparently, reliable. Teenagers abuse the hell out of them, but others -- tuneros, they call themselves -- turn their Italikas into pretty slick rides. Italika itself sponsors races that are at once funny to watch and somewhat impressive (see video links below). As far as what my scooter has to offer, back in February of this year, I was still too ignorant to know that you can't just slap Pirelli tires on a GY6 and expect to ride to Parker, Arizona and back -- 400 kilometers each way with a long, steep climb on the return trip -- over the course of a weekend, but that's what I did and Ilse had no problems whatsoever. It's funny what you can accomplish when you don't know any better. Ignorance has taken me all over the world in spite of my limited resources. For my next trick, I will recondition a 23-foot sailboat with an appropriate keel and expect the currents to deposit me in French Polynesia; but that's not possible, is it? youtu.be/52BvYiK45o0youtu.be/DrR-jMKrhVMyoutu.be/n7E6VesUvOYSalinas Pliego uses his considerable marketing might as owner of TV Azteca and the Elektra retail chain to promote Italika in Mexico and elsewhere: youtu.be/RLPNEmKUZyY |
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Post by quest4fire on Oct 26, 2012 20:10:05 GMT -5
The first Honda I saw was in 1960 or '61, when one came into a gas station near the house, while I was there with dad while a tire repair was going on. I was just a kid, probably a 2nd grader. The bike was, I found out later from magazine ads, a Honda Dream 305, with the pressed steel frame. Red. I thought it was the best-looking motorcycle I had ever seen, and in a way, still think so. I still remember the station owner, when asked about it, said "It's one o' them Jap things. I ain't heard of Honda, and don't 'spect I will again". HAHAHAHA! I can't help but wonder if one or more of the Chinese brands will turn out the same way. In the 1930s-60s, every European bike maker used NSU engines of some kind in their small bikes. In the future, Znen maybe? I bought a 1966 Honda 305 Dream in 1969, and drove it several years. Even drove it from VT to Phoenix. A fine machine, very fast, 80 mpg. Rugged, too.  Attachments:
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Post by yoshidawg on Oct 26, 2012 20:13:32 GMT -5
Had no idea Mexico had a scooter brand, and a nice looking one too.
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Post by loncindawg on Oct 26, 2012 20:23:11 GMT -5
Had no idea Mexico had a scooter brand, and a nice looking one too. Yes, the WS series is cool ... Zuma knockoffs. |
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Post by bobbyb on Oct 26, 2012 20:45:08 GMT -5
loncin
We went to Puerto Penasco a couple years ago fishing. We went into
a store with a bank in it to to get some peso's. They had Italika scoots
for sale. They were nice looking, 2 stroke 125cc's if I remember. If my peso
conversion was correct, $900. Wish I coulda brought one home.
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Post by loncindawg on Oct 26, 2012 20:52:22 GMT -5
loncin We went to Puerto Penasco a couple years ago fishing. We went into a store with a bank in it to to get some peso's. They had Italika scoots for sale. They were nice looking, 2 stroke 125cc's if I remember. If my peso conversion was correct, $900. Wish I coulda brought one home. You walked into an Elektra store. Salinas Pliego also has his own bank, Banco Azteca, which conducts its business inside the stores, as you saw. He also has an insurance company which is very competitive. Here in Baja, you now need to show proof of insurance to renew your tags every year. That includes scooters. |
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Post by bobbyb on Oct 26, 2012 21:03:07 GMT -5
loncin
Bingo. That was the bank. Kinda funny to see scooters in the same area
as clothing. But, it was a small store. I never noticed scooters in Rocky Point
until recently. Now they are everywhere. I love it lol.
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Post by Blueboy5000 on Oct 30, 2012 8:03:43 GMT -5
Well, would any of our now seven chinabombs hold up to touring? Yep, now, after extensive inspection and PDI and basic parts swaps.
Are Chinabombs truly a discounted price, factoring in all the PDI, part swapping, basic maintenance, and expensive titling/ registration? No. It works out to being a lot of nickle and diming that quickly raises the cost to the level of a Japan bike.
So if you do not possess lots of mechanical skill and tools (and a chunk of free time) a Chinabomb is not for you. You will wind up spending a nice piece of change. And the learning curve is really steep as parts are increasingly low quality, and without other running bikes to compare them to, you'll spend a lot of time scratching your head on your first bike.
However, once you work on one GY6, the next one you fix will be cake.
These bikes are not for anyone except a wrencher, and a patient wrencher at that.
All of that said, with a stable of 7 bikes, I don't see me stopping with the Chinabombs. I've grown to love these POS bikes. And after you work out the bugs, they are fine, dependable bikes that you could easily ride for 150 miles a day without any problems.
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Post by prodigit on Oct 30, 2012 17:19:32 GMT -5
Seems like a lot of the poorer countries are picking up in quality, and the richer countries are picking up in debt and bankrupty LOL!
But what is that with Mexico, and Lincoln and Italy? They just twist a few letters to make it appear that they have good quality?
Perhaps I should go for a mexican Chervolet, or Dogde, or Fodr! Lol!
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Post by fishead on Oct 31, 2012 14:38:03 GMT -5
After reading through these posts I really feel almi st like it's a racism post this is my take on all of it
I bought a Chinese scooter because thats what I wanted. I look forward to getting to know my scooter when it brakes and gets sick.
I will take pride in her even though she isn't the "best money can buy" if you tell me that my scooter is junk I may agree with you depending on the day but I don't have a monthly payments interest rates.
I feel I can honestly say as long as I take care of her she will take care of me.
Who cares what you ride love it and live in the moment.
Sorry to hear Chinese scooter aren't for you glad you found a ride you like.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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Post by kluge on Oct 31, 2012 17:45:28 GMT -5
A pretty savvy guy once pointed out to me that there's "builders" and there's "buyers." A "buyer" probably won't be happy with a Chinese scoot - he'll want to spend more to get something that will minimize the chances he'll have to get his hands dirty or be stuck by the side of the road. A "builder" wouldn't be as happy with anything but a Chinese scooter, because if you own one you're pretty much going to have to learn how to change your oil, replace your belt, and be ready to swap out your CDI, coil and plug, at the least. But that's not a negative if you're a "builder" type - it's really part of the experience.
Neither is right or wrong - just a different preference for how to deal with the world, that we're most likely just born with. Seems like a lot of these threads are just builders and buyers talking past each other.
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Post by moe4070 on Oct 31, 2012 22:40:33 GMT -5
Kluge -
Kudos and Ah-ha! Therein lies the additional 'dimension' of chinese scoot owners...we love (as a hobby or a necessity) the challenge of keeping these things going. In fact, there is a huge segment of this forum devoted to helping each other out in doing just that. Could I have afforded a brand new Honda? sure...but the savings and enjoyment of buying a Chinese scoot knowing that I would be the one to keep it on the road is part of the deal. I will never complain about this part being sh!t or that part crapping out...because I know that comes with the package, and the repair and problem-solving is part of the pleasure (if you will) of ownership. Chinese scoots to Japanese scoots is oranges to damned dragon-fruits, and it is NOT FAIR to compare as apples to apples for most owners. The issue lies with the ignorant/naive person who buys Chinese EXPECTING Japanese/Euro quality.
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Post by rockynv on Nov 1, 2012 12:08:47 GMT -5
Then there are the pragmatic that realize that if we spent a few hundred additional dollars up front and bought a $2,999 name brand bike instead of a $2,699 clone we would save 10 oil changes, 3 belts, 1 clutch, etc, etc per year ending up with more time to ride while lowering our chances of becoming unemployed due to missing days or showing up late for work from breaking down on the way to work.
I still have fun wrenching on my Aprilia but it is for adding sport fairings, gps mounts, top cases, FatDuc performance electronics (Ducati Engine Electronics work on Aprilia Scooters), Gold Valve fork adjusters, MotoGuzi fork braces, Resevoir shocks and the likes.
It is how I perceive value. I could have saved $400 on a clone and then spent $1,000 to upgrade the bike to reliable or go the cheaper route and get the Aprilia with a 4 year warranty added on. I went the cheaper route and got the Aprilia.
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Post by jlee on Nov 1, 2012 12:32:20 GMT -5
A pretty savvy guy once pointed out to me that there's "builders" and there's "buyers." A "buyer" probably won't be happy with a Chinese scoot - he'll want to spend more to get something that will minimize the chances he'll have to get his hands dirty or be stuck by the side of the road. A "builder" wouldn't be as happy with anything but a Chinese scooter, because if you own one you're pretty much going to have to learn how to change your oil, replace your belt, and be ready to swap out your CDI, coil and plug, at the least. But that's not a negative if you're a "builder" type - it's really part of the experience. Neither is right or wrong - just a different preference for how to deal with the world, that we're most likely just born with. Seems like a lot of these threads are just builders and buyers talking past each other. This is the best piece of wisdom I have seen in the entire thread. Kudos! |
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Post by loncindawg on Nov 1, 2012 14:51:42 GMT -5
A pretty savvy guy once pointed out to me that there's "builders" and there's "buyers." A "buyer" probably won't be happy with a Chinese scoot - he'll want to spend more to get something that will minimize the chances he'll have to get his hands dirty or be stuck by the side of the road. A "builder" wouldn't be as happy with anything but a Chinese scooter, because if you own one you're pretty much going to have to learn how to change your oil, replace your belt, and be ready to swap out your CDI, coil and plug, at the least. But that's not a negative if you're a "builder" type - it's really part of the experience. Neither is right or wrong - just a different preference for how to deal with the world, that we're most likely just born with. Seems like a lot of these threads are just builders and buyers talking past each other. I agree, and that's a big part of the attraction for me; but here in Mexico, as in Vietnam, scooters - in particular this Italika brand - are relied upon on a daily basis for commutes and errands and they are largely dependable ... there are as yet few "builders" here (I'm trying to change that). Even modifications of sorts are undertaken by authorized Italika service centers. Case in point: Late last year, when I was still completely oblivious to the kinds of issues that all of you address on this forum, Moisés, the head Italika mechanic here, informed me of a "recall" of my model and that it concerned the clutch. He even showed me the official directive. I was instructed to take my scooter in and that the problem would be corrected free of charge. When I went by to pick it up three hours later, he showed me three little yellow springs (I now know what they were) like the ones he installed. He said that this would correct issues concerning acceleration (i.e., it wouldn't be so sluggish on takeoff). Since joining this forum, I've become aware of the main differences between owning a GY6 scooter here and in the US, and it makes wonder if "builder" culture will ever thrive here. |
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Post by jim63 on Nov 1, 2012 15:01:18 GMT -5
As a former owner of Chinese scooters and current owner of a higher end Taiwan built scooters, and in the "buyer" class of bikers, I agree with the original poster. For us peace of mind when riding and touring (talking multi-state, 2000+ mile trips) is a primary concern. We had fun on our Chinese scooters, but are more of a gas-n-go with scheduled maintenance, with a local dealer network for our needs, instead of relying on the internet or more distant shops for our maintenance and parts needs. Oil changes and routine stuff still done in the garage. Days of tearing bikes apart to chase down gremlins not something I care to do anymore. That being said we now tour on a Honda Goldwing. We enjoy riding the open road and being carefree, so we pay for our peace of mind. I dont think I would ever be comfortable taking my roketa on a multi-state ride. We live in a more rural area so, we tend to travel longer distances than city or suburban people do.
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Post by yoshidawg on Nov 1, 2012 19:41:14 GMT -5
Problem is that a lot of "buyers" aren't told before-hand that the 700$ TaoTao their looking at will turn out to be a "builder" purchase. Some will adapt to the builder life, others will seek out Craigs List. Then you have "buyers" who can't grasp that a more expensive purchase will in fact be more rewarding in the long run, and possibly cheaper after time.
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Post by SylvreKat on Nov 1, 2012 22:12:50 GMT -5
Yoshi, then there's folks who get into it with very little knowledge. And not a lot of internet searching background.
And not all of them are lucky enough to have a Harley friend looking out for them, who warns them to stay away from the Chinese scooters 'cause they're not capable of the work those bikes require. Or a friend who already owns a scooter who sends them to the Piaggio dealer (yes, for a solid, reliable bike that doesn't need the work they're not capable of).
See, I was lucky. I had those friends who knew what I could--and more important, absolutely could NOT--do. If I hadn't, I would've probably ended up on a Schwinn 'cause Mom's bicycle is a Schwinn, and I wouldn't have known any better. Not 'til afterwards. 'Cause I still don't always think of searching the 'net for info.
>'Kat
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Post by prodigit on Nov 1, 2012 23:20:29 GMT -5
And then you have those like me, who actually buy a Tao, just for the heck of it, because it seems a great deal, and drive with it for miles of fun, and never really have an issue with it; and they find websites like these, and gain scoot knowledge rapidly.
And with the little tools they have, intimidated by changing the spark plug at first, learn from youtube vids on how to do it, and actually find, that all those maintenance issues aren't such a great deal after all, once you see how to do them correctly!
I'm one of those people.
On my first Chinese moped, I learned to mount the front wheel, handle bars, windshield and plastic front.
On my second bike, I've learned that a 250+cc bike is too heavy to uncrate with 1 person, and I've learned to do an engine oil change, and CVT oil change.
On my third bike, (cheaper 50cc scoot) I've learned to open the tupperware, and check the hoses, open the CVT case, air filter, and check the spark plug. I've also messed around with some items for tuning. I've installed a separate windshield, and ordered parts for my scoot to modify it.
All in all I was very happy with my Tao Tao, it's well tuned, and very little things I can do to it to improve it's performance.
I mainly bought it because it's cheap, and if I messed it up, I can always go back to my big (260cc) scoot.
I bought it to learn from, so that some maintenance things I can learn to do on a cheaper scoot. Once I know how to do them on the cheaper scoot, I won't be as afraid to do them on the bigger scoot.
So far I have over 3500 miles combined on 3 scoots, and counting. They all still work!
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Post by jlee on Nov 2, 2012 2:21:07 GMT -5
Problem is that a lot of "buyers" aren't told before-hand that the 700$ TaoTao their looking at will turn out to be a "builder" purchase. Some will adapt to the builder life, others will seek out Craigs List. Then you have "buyers" who can't grasp that a more expensive purchase will in fact be more rewarding in the long run, and possibly cheaper after time. The builder/buyer analogy simply explains why the two exist. Whether you are a builder or a buyer, if you don't research a purchase first, then you deserve what you get. That goes way beyond just scooters. |
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