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Post by cliftonc on Oct 20, 2012 4:15:10 GMT -5
You get out of China the quality you demand. The Big Four have had engines, even whole bikes, made in China for years, but to their own standards, from metallurgy to machining. My Sunny is just not nearly the quality of my Hondas - sorry, but there it is. I, too, recognize this, and bought the Sunny for a specific purpose, being an around-town short trip bike to run errands, go to coffee shop meets, etc, and to take some pressure off the Elite 250, which is tired at nearly 40k miles. the Sunny requires much more maintenance, adjusting, and general attention than the Hondas, but I expected that, and knew what I was getting. Big Four and Italian scoot owners will know what I mean when I say that the Sunny just would not be acceptable if bought by the same standards. Oddly enough, the Sunny is my second brand-new bike, after the CB350 i bought new in 1972. I generally, like SylvreKat, buy used according to my own inspections, and hang on to stuff. My "cage fleet" is a 1990 Chrysler Fifth Avenue (my daughter calls it the Pimpmobile), a 1993 Chevy S-10 pickup, and my wife has a 2000 Ford Explorer. All of these are in good shape, maintained, reliable, kept rust-free, and trustworthy. When they can no longer be trusted, they will be replaced. Before I got the Silver Wing in 2006, the Elite 250 was my only bike for several years. It has been to rallies etc in four states multiple times carrying luggage, something even I would NOT attempt on the Sunny. Agree or disagree with me, but that is my position, and I am stickin' to it... ;D Attachments:
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 20, 2012 6:23:35 GMT -5
prodigit, my point is I don't need to keep my things together "like welding broken parts...replacing rusted bars...". I'm NOT a mechanic. I have NEVER made that claim. In fact I'm very vocal here about my utter lack of any mechanic abilities. I was excited to find the oil dipstick on my own.
My point is by spending more up front and taking care of my things with normal care, I typically don't need to have those types of repairs. At least not all that soon. Many years from now, perhaps.
My wagon is starting to rust under the left back door. And the headliner is getting little tears from my usual gestures (using the sunshield, reaching for the garage opener button, etc). Nothing I could've done about either, it's just the environment taking its toll. But notice it's taken TWENTY YEARS for these to develop. How long would an equivalent current-Chinese-quality car have lasted?
You, you're happy to spend less upfront and need to go shop for a new replacement in a few years. Me, I'm happy to spend more upfront and not worry about constant trips to a mechanic (in my case 'cause I can't tinker it myself) and not have to look for a replacement for many many years. That's why companies provide cheap products with usually cheaper quality alongside higher-cost products with usually higher quality, so we each have a choice that meets our desires.
>'Kat
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Post by leo on Oct 20, 2012 6:29:41 GMT -5
i might own a manual bike someday but not today. if i can find a 400cc CVT bike then i will probably never own one. |
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 20, 2012 6:30:14 GMT -5
spandi, we had an old b&w tv that I just loved. I think it was a Sylvania? It had three overlapping colour circles for a logo, I remember that. It had these smooth chrome knobs and controls that felt so ultra-cool to my touch. And when you turned it off, the picture zoomed down tiny tinier tiniest until it went dark. Loved that old tv.
Up 'til about my freshman year our colour console had a ROUND picture tube. The fun with that was the signal was usually over-broadcasted and we could often see the end of the mikes at the top.
We still have an old RCA floor console. I'm worries what'll happen when it finally goes, 'cause nobody makes a floor console tv anymore. When you grew up lying on the floor watching tv, that's just the way you want to watch it. Happily it still seems to be going strong, knock on its solid wood cabinet.
>'Kat
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Post by cheapeto on Oct 20, 2012 8:18:18 GMT -5
Great post scootnwin!!
I have no regrets buying my china scoot, it got me back on 2 wheels, as I never would consider the small cc's, always had the HD mindset of 1000 cc's or higher is the only way to fly.
If I had not bought the cheapo, I'd never would found and considered the Honda Big Ruckus, with it's 250cc motor.
I keep my china scoot, for the grandkids to buzz around on, that way they dont ask about riding the Honda!!
No regrets, but no more would I spend the cash on another one, well maybe once someone rides a ScooterCannonball on one, as we just dont see them running in endurence races like that.
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Post by yoshidawg on Oct 20, 2012 10:00:53 GMT -5
The cheapo scoots are a great way to get started, but you will soon become unsatisfied with it's performance. I know someone with a brand new TaoTao already throwing $$$ at it trying to get more satisfaction. For me 50cc is the only way to go my state doesn't require JACK but a DL and eye protection, if I HAD to register my scoots, I would get a shifter bike. Ride free or DIE!
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Post by massscoot on Oct 20, 2012 12:11:06 GMT -5
Prodigit a tour is not 50 miles I commute daily nearly that far round trip. 50 miles is a short ride. Touring is a couple hundred miles at a time I tour farther than that on my bicycle. you should at least read before you comment it helps to dispel ignorance and would make you look a little better It is quite a long ride on a chinese 50cc, but if you want to do 100 mile commutes, I'm sure it'll hold out that long as well. I've done a few 100 mile trips on my 260cc, but my ass won't hold out any longer than that, though the bike does. Compare a chinese bike to a jap, and you pay 1/2 to 1/4th the price. You can easily recoup the money by buying 2 to 3 chinese bikes vs 1 jap bike, and ride them just as long, if not longer! Jap bikes ride perhaps 25 years. Chinese bikes ride perhaps 5 years. Buy a new one every 5 years, and you not only have a new bike every 5 years, but you also have an improvement of technology every time, and not even worry about brakepads or changing tires as much as on a jap bike, because you only need to change tires/pads once before the chinese bike is about to retire. Prodigit: You're missing the point here! Yes...You can buy X times the amount vs. a Japanese scooter (less for A Taiwanese), but what happens when you're 30 miles away from your home & your crappy Chinese scooter breaks down? And we know it will! I'm sorry...But I believe in "You get what you pay for" Example: Kymco Super 8 150 can be had (brand new) for under $2300.00 Then you can buy a Chinese 150cc scoot for around $1500.00 I think the extra $800.00 is worth it for peace of mind, plus a real 2-year warranty w/ a dealer network. I think the original poster makes some serious good points! |
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Post by spandi on Oct 20, 2012 12:37:43 GMT -5
spandi, we had an old b&w tv that I just loved. I think it was a Sylvania? It had three overlapping colour circles for a logo, I remember that. It had these smooth chrome knobs and controls that felt so ultra-cool to my touch. And when you turned it off, the picture zoomed down tiny tinier tiniest until it went dark. Loved that old tv. Up 'til about my freshman year our colour console had a ROUND picture tube. The fun with that was the signal was usually over-broadcasted and we could often see the end of the mikes at the top. We still have an old RCA floor console. I'm worries what'll happen when it finally goes, 'cause nobody makes a floor console tv anymore. When you grew up lying on the floor watching tv, that's just the way you want to watch it. Happily it still seems to be going strong, knock on its solid wood cabinet. >'Kat Thanks Kat. I remember being at my uncle's house in Long Island "way back when" with his wife and kids, my family, (and a couple of the neighbors kids to boot) all packed into the living room to see Bonanza IN LIVING COLOR! Like you, on a solid wood console done in "Contemporary" styling! Try telling some young kid that's the way it was, and they'ed look at you like you were nuts. LOL! Sadly, my aunt Ruth passed yesterday morning, but those cherished memories are mine to keep forever. |
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Post by inuyasha on Oct 20, 2012 12:47:35 GMT -5
spandi, we had an old b&w tv that I just loved. I think it was a Sylvania? It had three overlapping colour circles for a logo, I remember that. It had these smooth chrome knobs and controls that felt so ultra-cool to my touch. And when you turned it off, the picture zoomed down tiny tinier tiniest until it went dark. Loved that old tv. Up 'til about my freshman year our colour console had a ROUND picture tube. The fun with that was the signal was usually over-broadcasted and we could often see the end of the mikes at the top. We still have an old RCA floor console. I'm worries what'll happen when it finally goes, 'cause nobody makes a floor console tv anymore. When you grew up lying on the floor watching tv, that's just the way you want to watch it. Happily it still seems to be going strong, knock on its solid wood cabinet. >'Kat Thanks Kat. I remember being at my uncle Ed's house in Long Island "way back when" with his wife and kids, my family, (and a couple of the neighbors kids to boot) all packed into the living room to see Bonanza IN LIVING COLOR! Like you, on a solid wood console done in "Contemporary" styling! Try telling some young kid that's the way it was, and they'ed look at you like you were nuts. LOL! Sadly, my aunt Ruth passed yesterday morning, but those cherished memories are mine to keep forever. Hi I'm so sorry to hear that my friend you have my sincere condolences The day God called you home God looked around his Garden and found an empty place. He then looked down upon his earth and saw your loving face. He put his arms around you and lifted you to rest. His Garden must be beautiful, he always takes the best. He knew that you were suffering, he knew you were in pain. And knew that you would never get well on earth again. He saw your path was difficult, he closed your tired eyes, He whispered to you "Peace be Thine" and gave you wings to fly. When we saw you sleeping so calm and free of pain, We would not wish you back to earth to suffer once again. You've left us precious memories, your love will be our guide, You live on through your children, you're always by our side. It broke our hearts to lose you, but you did not go alone. For part of us went with you on the day God called you home. ~Author Unknown You and your are in my heart my thoughts and in my prayers Take care dearest friend Yours Hank |
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Post by spandi on Oct 20, 2012 12:52:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words Hank.... I'm still pretty Shellshocked.
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Post by inuyasha on Oct 20, 2012 13:01:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words Hank.... I'm still pretty Shellshocked. Hi Its never easy to lose a loved one If i can help in any way please dont hesitate to ask Take care dear friend Yours Hank |
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Post by spandi on Oct 20, 2012 13:20:15 GMT -5
Thanks again Hank, but as you know, it is time that will heal this.
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Post by prodigit on Oct 20, 2012 14:35:11 GMT -5
It is quite a long ride on a chinese 50cc, but if you want to do 100 mile commutes, I'm sure it'll hold out that long as well. I've done a few 100 mile trips on my 260cc, but my ass won't hold out any longer than that, though the bike does. Compare a chinese bike to a jap, and you pay 1/2 to 1/4th the price. You can easily recoup the money by buying 2 to 3 chinese bikes vs 1 jap bike, and ride them just as long, if not longer! Jap bikes ride perhaps 25 years. Chinese bikes ride perhaps 5 years. Buy a new one every 5 years, and you not only have a new bike every 5 years, but you also have an improvement of technology every time, and not even worry about brakepads or changing tires as much as on a jap bike, because you only need to change tires/pads once before the chinese bike is about to retire. Prodigit: You're missing the point here! Yes...You can buy X times the amount vs. a Japanese scooter (less for A Taiwanese), but what happens when you're 30 miles away from your home & your crappy Chinese scooter breaks down? And we know it will! I'm sorry...But I believe in "You get what you pay for" Example: Kymco Super 8 150 can be had (brand new) for under $2300.00 Then you can buy a Chinese 150cc scoot for around $1500.00 I think the extra $800.00 is worth it for peace of mind, plus a real 2-year warranty w/ a dealer network. I think the original poster makes some serious good points! The funny thing is, I keep hearing people say this same thing 'what happens IF...?' Well, let me tell you, I have almost 2k miles on my 260 (one of the reasons I got a 50cc scoot, to relieve it a bit), without a single breakdown. Breakdowns can happen like you say, suddenly, but quite more often there are warning signs to this before it breaks down! A belt can snap and leave you stranded, or a tire may break, but so can it with a jap bike! But if your front brake disc caliper breaks down, you can still scoot around, and get home safely. Or if blinkers, lights, speedo break down, you could still get home. And those are more likely to break down, than an utter mechanical failure, unless you're taking the engine where it wasn't made for! More often than not, before a bike leaves you stranded, there will be a warning sign; like a funny noise, or odd vibration. And those things need to be heeded on any bike. So you want to ride in town? The big brands have 100 and 125cc bikes. I'm afraid on a chinese bike you'll need to get a 150cc to get the same performance, but really? Is it that bad? You want to go on the highway occasionally? The big brands 150-200cc's can go on the highways, with the chinese you'll need a 250, or 300 when you're traveling with a companion. You want to cruise long distances on a scoot? The big brands have 250cc to 300cc scoots. The chinese don't have yet many bikes for long distances, so get an expensive bike. But the majority of the people needing a bike, need it for cruising around town, or going from one to the next town. Few people actually buy a bike to cruise long distances. And imho, the 260cc I have, is more than enough to go on the highway, doing 70mph, to cross between counties; a good 100 mile is about good enough for a china scoot trip! Not too many people buy china scoots and need to do more than that, however if you live in colder area's, like canada, I'm sure a 250-300cc scoot can drive you 200-300 miles in half a day, and back! Just don't expect to do it on a 50, or 150cc, like the big brands may be able to... Besides, I can get a 250 for $1600 easily, and a 150 chino scoot for $1000. |
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Post by scootnwinn on Oct 20, 2012 15:40:04 GMT -5
You really should try reading the original post Prodigit before you comment further the whole point was the math your using to figure things is fundamentally flawed. You seem to be pretty smart read it and think about it then support your position
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Post by capucine on Oct 20, 2012 16:27:21 GMT -5
I have a honda elite 1986 that will last the rest of my life. The scooter has 25000kilometers and still looks like new with hardly no parts replacement in all those years. I dont think any chinese products can live that long. I am new to this forum and still have to figure how to post a picure.
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Post by quest4fire on Oct 20, 2012 19:35:33 GMT -5
I think something to remember here is that this is a forum primarily for owners of Chinese scooters. I don't have one, but I already have some old scooters I am fond of. I like this group. There is a lot going on, and we are a helpful bunch of people. I think the letter that started this thread is interesting, the arguments well supported, but it is kind of like throwing a bomb into a tavern. We are having a good time here, some of these characters are ingenious and resourceful. I guess a Chinese scoot can be an interesting hobby.
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Post by medman1952 on Oct 20, 2012 20:13:07 GMT -5
I think something to remember here is that this is a forum primarily for owners of Chinese scooters. I don't have one, but I already have some old scooters I am fond of. I like this group. There is a lot going on, and we are a helpful bunch of people. I think the letter that started this thread is interesting, the arguments well supported, but it is kind of like throwing a bomb into a tavern. We are having a good time here, some of these characters are ingenious and resourceful. I guess a Chinese scoot can be an interesting hobby. It never ceases to amaze me when people come here and start pointing out how inferior Chinese scooters are. Lets make one thing totally clear. This forum was started to help the owners of Chinese made scooters at a time when there was precious little out there in the way of help for people who were unfortunate enough to have bought a scooter off the internet from a dealer that had no after the service help at all. So if you just have nothing good to say about the judgement of people that have bought one I would suggest joining a Honda scooter forum and have fun there. If you want to come here and be helpful, fine but people do not need the negativity. |
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Post by scootnwinn on Oct 20, 2012 21:24:52 GMT -5
Who are you talking to? The only negativity here didn't come from me. I own a Chinese scooter all I did was share the thoughts I had when I bought my next scooter (which wasn't a Honda) I didn't think this was an exclusive site in fact I believe the 250 and up mentions a Japanese scooter. If I lived in town I might stay on Chinese scooters. I like to think the majority of my posts are helpful and I have never said anything bad about anyone on here. Never said anyone's post was bs or anything like that... I have never been on a forum where a mod told someone to leave for calmly stating an opinion
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Post by spandi on Oct 20, 2012 22:45:49 GMT -5
I for one am glad I have a Chinese scoot. It's something different, not the run of the mill chocolate-vanilla-strawberry flavors from Japan. It's a solid little machine (ok maybe not so little) that has put me on the cutting edge of motor scootin' of the future. (this must have been what the early adopters of "Japanese Junk" had to go through in the late fifties-early sixties) It's also fun explaining to folks just what a "Znen" is. (I figure I won't be doing that for very much longer.)
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Post by scootnwinn on Oct 21, 2012 8:25:36 GMT -5
Well folks apparently this thread is insulting to some. Sorry to those who where offended. I will refrain from posting further on this thread or others like it. Take care scooter folks I will see you all on the road
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Post by yoshidawg on Oct 21, 2012 9:32:06 GMT -5
My Chinese scooter is the best thing I've ever purchased. Ever!
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Post by WarrenS on Oct 21, 2012 10:23:20 GMT -5
I came here in 2006 with an interest in Chinese scooters. I have avoided being too negative toward them since I never owned one until I got the electric one. I believe that the Chinese scooters are making great strides in quality as they progress into fuel injection.
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Post by massscoot on Oct 21, 2012 11:01:30 GMT -5
I came here in 2006 with an interest in Chinese scooters. I have avoided being too negative toward them since I never owned one until I got the electric one. I believe that the Chinese scooters are making great strides in quality as they progress into fuel injection. Warren: You make a very soild point. Chinese scoots have gotten much. much better then just 5 years ago. Example...Bintelli Scooters (Znen built) is making one fine scoot. Bintelli Link: www.bintelli.com/But other companies have moved their factories away from Japan & Taiwan & are now many are built on mainland China. The Honda PCX150 is built in Thailand! These companies (Honda, Kymco, Yamaha etc.) knew that they must manufacture their scoots where the labor cost is less expensive. Look @ Kymco's USA line-up, only 6 models are made in Taiwan now. All the rest (10 our of 16) are made in China. 4 years ago only two scooters were made in China (Agility 50cc & the 125cc) Here is a problem....As Chinese scooters become more reliable (& they will continue to get better, trust me) the labor costs will go up. Next up will be Vietnam or even an African country will be next. It's all about the labor costs, period. |
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Post by prodigit on Oct 21, 2012 13:32:54 GMT -5
Not only the higher quality ones, but even the low quality chinese bikes have increased a lot in performance, and reliability!
They got rid of cost cutting items that broke down fast, and replaced them with items a few bucks more expensive that will last (eg: Some cheap chinese scoots come with belts almost as good as a Jap version; tires that last several thousand miles, as opposed to the latex tires of the early years, and lots more of improvements!).
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Post by Globs on Oct 21, 2012 14:36:34 GMT -5
A good post, I think people rarely realise quite how much their chinese bikes are costing them. It's not because they are chinese, it's because they are cheap and assembled without care or quality. I bought a SYM - well two actually, and quality is fantastic: they Just Work. I have a total of 9000km on them now and not a single breakdown. I'd have to look at a Burgman 400, but for me the lighter SYM GTS300i (RV 300i) ticks all the boxes - so only a huge amount of extra storage would swing it for me  |
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Post by rockynv on Oct 22, 2012 12:04:52 GMT -5
To me the biggest factor on switching to an Italian bike is that I commute 1,000 mile per month. On a GY6 style scoot with no oil filtration that was 24 oil changes required per year on a $1700 150cc Znen bike however on my $2,999 Italian 250 it is 2 oil changes per year.
Value has to do with more than initial cost and includes maitenance and suitability to your usage. For me it was just costing too much to keep the 150cc GY6 going in the semi-tropical heat where I live (missed work or was made late too many times with the GY6 acting up in the hear).
The Chinese are getting closer especially now that the Itallians and Japanese are tutoring them toward building better quality products. When I am ready to part with my Aprilia I may be looking toward a Chinese bike as the quality in another few years is hopefully going to keep on improving but for now as a long distance commuter the Chinese bikes are still not quite there.
Right now with the cost of the better Chinese 250's being only a few hundred dollars off from the Italian Factory Incentive 250's it is not a difficult choice and just makes good sense. If you have out grown the GY6 150 and are considering an upgrade to a Chinese bike costing $2,500+ then it is in your best interest to see what competative offers are being made by the other manufacturers. I am really glad that I looked as the Aprilia Sport City Fuel Injected 250 is really worth the extra 200 to 500 dollars it costs over the Chinese 250's available to me locally.
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Post by cliftonc on Oct 22, 2012 14:37:09 GMT -5
Not just dissing on china bikes here; I ride one.
As I pointed out before, you get out of China the quality you demand, and they *are* getting generally better. My own China scoot (Sunny branded, made by Dong Fang) is, I think, and example. The price was low - the frame is solid, the engine seems fine. The issues I have had have been with "supplier" parts, and they are strictly lowest-bidder - tires, light bulbs, brake pads, bearings in the front wheels, fuel pump, etc were rubbish, but the basic bike is fine. I have offered a bunch of advice for folk buying these things - I have the much-maligned D150TKA reverse trike, and have offered what I can about front-end alignment, etc. I would hesitate to travel on it, but it is just not built to that purpose; it is an around-town machine, and that is what i got it to do. It is oversized, overweight, and underpowered, and suited to local stuff. Saying so does not constitute "trashing" the bike, I am just, in the forum environment, conveying what I have found, to help others. The quality issues are there, but with the mainland Chinese bikes not made for the major labels, we are looking at 1/2 or less the cost of the big brands, so that is the difference.
I am not trying to pee in anybody's Cheerios, just conveying knowledge and review.
The point was made, however, that as general quality improves, so will general price, so soon we will likely see the end of $800 150s anyway. Many offerings are getting *much* better for the given price. It's a gettin' better...
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Post by Globs on Oct 22, 2012 16:29:02 GMT -5
I'm sure there are ways to keep chinese bikes alive for a low cost (like welding broken parts together When I'm in between a couple of trucks at 50mph and hit a big bump I don't want to be on the type of bike that needs welding back together!! My life relies on stuff carefully welded together in Taiwan and subject to a myriad of quality controls - I'm not sure I'd really want to risk it all falling apart at the wrong moment!! |
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Post by qwertydude on Oct 22, 2012 16:40:25 GMT -5
Anyone who think China bikes will equal Japanese bikes is likely right. They will, eventually, but the price will rise to be comparable. If you want an example, check out the Taiwanese or Korean bike brands. They're good, but not quite as good as Japan and they're priced accordingly, nearly as expensive as the Japanese for just about equal quality.
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Post by Globs on Oct 22, 2012 17:58:18 GMT -5
Anyone who think China bikes will equal Japanese bikes is likely right. They will, eventually, Before they do that they need to actually care about quality. The Japanese quality wasn't due to time passing, it was due to a fanatical attention to quality, something that the british and US car and bike industries discovered when as 'time passed', their own quality didn't get any better. Japan still has quality but has huge problems with cost, but South Korea and Taiwan are now fanatical about quality and their costs are much lower. If and when china starts getting serious about quality we'll get some usable stuff. In fact I hope they get into quality before they build too many nuclear reactors too... |
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