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Post by jwalz1 on Sept 21, 2012 13:43:27 GMT -5
Just got back from a trip to Europe and saw tens of thousands of scooters over the last couple weeks. A few things really stood out from what I saw.
First, I was surprised to see that Chinese scooters seemed almost non existent in the two big scooting cities I was in. Paris and Rome have countless thousands of scooters but I MAYBE saw a dozen that had no badging and looked chinese. I am not sure if there is an import restriction, or if maybe there is an emissions requirement that the chinese do not meet. If it is an import restriction, it does not apply to Japan because their machines seem to dominate.
Second, I was really surprised to see that far and away the most popular single model in Paris (and by model I am including several engine sizes) is the Piaggio MP3 three wheeled scooter. They are EVERYWHERE in Paris and really stand out. I am not sure if the rainy weather makes then an attractive choice, or if they appeal to the average person who is scared of two wheels but ok with three. In any area where 20 scooters are parked, you are likely to see three or more MP3's.
Maxis are also the style of choice in Paris. I would guess well over half are maxi-style because I suppose they are expected to carry a workload sometimes. Piaggio had a two wheeled maxi that was also very popular, but then the one represented in lage numbers were (in no particular order) a couple models of french Peugeot maxis, Burgmans, Silverwings, Majestys, and Yamaha TMAX and Xmax are probably near the top after the MP3's. Though in not as great a number I did see several Sym GTS models, both one headlight and new two headlight. Other than that I did not see very many Sym or Kymco models, but they would be sprinkled in at random. I only spotted one of my beloved Downtowns in france. I thought Citicoms would be popular, never saw a single one anywhere.
Italy seemed to have a much different taste. First of all, maxis are not the most popular, 150 step through models represent at least 60% of the scooters, and far and away the Honda SH 150 is the most popular. I am exaggerating, but it almost feels at times as though they make up half the models on the street. You can go down a street with a couple hundred scooters parked on the and see SH 150's parked four to five at a time, then a couple other models, then more Hondas. I know they make then there, but it was really surprising with Vespa, Piaggio, Aprillia, etc all Italian companies, that Honda is the number one choice.
There were lots of SH 300's as well and some Swings. Again TMAX and Xmax were huge. The TMAX seems to be the badboy scooter and they are everywhere. As for Aprillia, I saw only some Sportcitys, but the were generally looking old and beat up from the sun as though they have not had a production run in a few years and there were not that many. A lot fewer Vespa's than you would think to. I saw one moped with Ducati badging. Again Burgmans were popular and about 90% are 400's. A few Majestys. But in total, well more Japanese scooters that Italian. Just a couple Sym spotted. Many more Kymco in Italy than France, saw a dozen or so Downtowns as they are hard to find, but it appears that at one time the People 250's were popular because they are plentiful. I easily saw three times as many People 250's as I saw Aprillia SportCitys. Saw a few of the new Kymco People GT's 200's and 300's. I could see that as a popular model there because it seems to fit the style preference.
And lastly, neary every scooter sports a top case, and almost all of the step through styles have bolted on cheap windshields. Some mopeds, but not the norm, 100cc's and up probably because lots of traffic on the city main arterials is 40mph+. Between the two tastes for different scooters between the french and the italians, the one they both seem to like was the Tmax. And while the French love the Italian 3 wheeler, the Italians don't seem to have anywhere near as many. Oh, and PCX's were doing well in both countries, but lots had custom windshield and accesories that made it hard to tell what they were at first.
I only took one scooter pic that I may post later, basically a street with a couple hundred scooters parked on it.
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Post by spandi on Sept 21, 2012 16:15:25 GMT -5
They use scooters a lot more over there for business purposes. I read an article of an American woman living in Paris who had to get used to her boss going on his scoot to meetings (with her on the back) as they get through the snarled Parisian traffic much better.
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Post by teddy554 on Sept 21, 2012 17:31:56 GMT -5
Yeah i am so jealous of the scooter they have and the street legal 50cc dirt bike   |
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Post by gregw on Sept 21, 2012 18:36:24 GMT -5
Great post jwalz1. Interesting read.
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Post by spandi on Sept 21, 2012 19:46:38 GMT -5
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Post by sctrpop on Sept 21, 2012 19:55:15 GMT -5
I was in Germany for 4 years and scoots are common there. You can ride on the road or on any bike path.
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Post by rockynv on Sept 21, 2012 20:30:30 GMT -5
In Europe they have the Euro3 standard for noise and air quility which I understand is tougher to meet than EPA. That alone probably reduces what can be brought in from China quite a bit. In some areas that are environmentally sensitive they will not let you in if you don't have a Euro3 compliance certification on your ride.
With the cost of fuel being what it is the smaller bikes will be more popular in Italy. The SH150 is likely enjoying popularity because it is different but it's capacity is limited compared to what Piaggio offers as far a load rating. Most Piaggio based bikes will carry over 460 lbs. Not sure if Honda dumped their scooters below cost to dominate the market but time will tell.
Three wheels on slippery when wet cobblestones is probably not a bad idea either. Piaggio owns Vespa and Aprilia so they are basically the same company using common engine packages across the three brands stylizing and doing their own tweeks with Aprilia probably being the most performance and bang for your buck line.
It gets interesting when you see the ones with lap blankets attached to the bikes sending engine heat around the riders for winter riding up in the mountains. Freezing temps with cobble stones, snow and ice on 2 wheels must be interesting.
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Post by tinstar on Sept 21, 2012 21:58:49 GMT -5
Good read! Thanks for posting.
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Post by jwalz1 on Sept 22, 2012 9:10:26 GMT -5
Also forgot to mention the Gileras of course. Also an Italian scooter, very nice looking too.
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Post by spandi on Sept 22, 2012 9:18:45 GMT -5
Hey rocky, I put in a British alarm that had to meet the Euro standard for..... noise pollution! LOL! (it was for the "tweeting" sound when you arm or disarm the unit.)
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Post by imnts2 on Sept 22, 2012 10:18:29 GMT -5
In Europe you have to realize that a scoot is much more practical around town than a car. It is often near impossible to park and distances are rather short. Even in big towns like Paris or Rome. (few department store or Wallyworlds) So scoots or either the car or the second car. No one wants a car that requires constant fixing. Scoots can go just about anywhere a bicycle can including to the front of a line of cars stoped at a red light. Fuel is now well over 10 a gal- even diesel. so a scoot is not for fun or may not even be for econamy. I can run an errand ona scoot even in small towns a long way from big cities- in a fraction of the time it takes with a car or a bicycle or a bus.
Different way of life.
Cheers
lefty2
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Post by prodigit on Sept 22, 2012 22:00:36 GMT -5
I've lived in Belgium for the most part of the year, which is like 100 miles from Paris.
It seems that Europe pays extra (kind of like compensation) import taxes from China, or any other low paid country, so that products coming from there cost nearly as much as products created in most western worlds (including Japan).
A second reason is that Europe is currently the top of the world (no longer USA). The quality and craftsmanship in european products is staggering and remarkable.
I've noted something ever since I came to USA.
In Belgium, the products you find in supermarkets and stores, generally exceeds those you can find online (save for brand items).
In USA I have found a lot of stores carrying lower grade products than the ones found online for similar prices, or, if you want to buy something in a store of internet quality (meaning amazon, ebay, home depot, Loewes...) you tend to pay a premium for it.
In Belgium (and germany too), supermarkets try to make sure they offer only the best, and items better than found in most online stores. In USA they generally look at cheapest priced items.
That's my experience...
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Post by teddy554 on Sept 22, 2012 22:39:16 GMT -5
Yeah we are for sure trying to save a buck country, especially me. I feel we are a country thats is for how much money we can make and how little we can spend, not talking about the government in that sentence
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Post by jwalz1 on Sept 23, 2012 9:51:19 GMT -5
Oh one other thing, helmets must be mandatory because I don't remembers ever seeing anyone without one. And since these bikes are some people's primary transportation, I saw a couple parents with 5 or 6 year olds on the back getting a ride to or from school. Never saw a kids motorcycle helmet before until now. Watching the rider weave in an out of busy traffic with little kids on the back can make you a little nervous though.
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Post by prodigit on Sept 23, 2012 10:20:18 GMT -5
The good thing is USA gets more on taxes that way. It makes more sense to them to buy 2 'crappy' bikes, than one good one that'll last more than 5 years!
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Post by SylvreKat on Sept 23, 2012 16:50:28 GMT -5
Not everyone is a "try to save a buck" shopper.
I just ordered three books from the local bookstore (local in this case meaning not a chain, seeing as they're a good half-hour away). Could I have bought them from B&N or Amazon for cheaper? Probably. But this way I'm supporting a neat little shop that is more willing to try meeting my needs.
Besides that B&N seems to rarely have any floor help, and those few unwilling to actually help.
It's your choice folks. But keep in mind when you strive to save that buck from online, you're contributing to the closing of the store up the street.
>'Kat
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Post by teddy554 on Sept 23, 2012 19:38:11 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with saving money, i also support our downtown small business all the time buy shopping local but i still going to try to save a buck whether online, at wal mart or buying second hand
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Post by prodigit on Sept 23, 2012 20:37:51 GMT -5
I think most people are trying to save a buck. It's like we're paying taxes and insurances, and get virtually nothing in return.
So I can't blame anyone for going chinese!
Besides, a chinese bike makes an excellent first bike!
You'll learn from them, and can crash them worst case; your loss will be less.
Then upgrade to a Jap/USA model bike; the big guns. That way you'll have more experience, and will know what to appreciate in the quality increase you pay for.
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Post by gregsfc on Sept 26, 2012 18:00:39 GMT -5
Someone at another forum posted a link showing top scooter model sales for Italy for 2010 where nearly everyone owns one. I can't find the post or the link, but it went something like this:
1. Honda SH300
2. Honda SH150
3. Honda SH125
4. Piaggio Beverly 300
5. Yamaha XMax 250
I think since that time, the new Beverly 350 has helped Piaggio gain ground, and Yamaha has gained as well, and they may surpassed the two smaller Hondas, but I believe the SH300i still rules that huge, highly-competitive scooter market.
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Post by massscoot on Sept 28, 2012 12:28:50 GMT -5
Jwalz1: That was an outstanding thread! One of the best (so far) I have read in this forum. Very interesting! It's too bad Honda pulled the SH150i from the states after only one year, but it was expensive for a 150cc scoot. I think the PCX150 fills-in pretty well @ $3449.00
Italy LOVES their 16" tires! No question. It's just the opposite here in the states. Do you notice that as well? Aside from the Kymco GT300i & the Piaggio BV350 & The SYM Citicom 300 (soon to come back to the US) there isn't really many 16" scoots. Yes...There are a few Chinese 16" (Peace 890, Puma Falcon & the BWS Kerrigan T-150)
Great post! I really enjoyed reading it!
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Post by inuyasha on Sept 28, 2012 12:46:42 GMT -5
Not everyone is a "try to save a buck" shopper. I just ordered three books from the local bookstore (local in this case meaning not a chain, seeing as they're a good half-hour away). Could I have bought them from B&N or Amazon for cheaper? Probably. But this way I'm supporting a neat little shop that is more willing to try meeting my needs. Besides that B&N seems to rarely have any floor help, and those few unwilling to actually help. It's your choice folks. But keep in mind when you strive to save that buck from online, you're contributing to the closing of the store up the street. >'Kat Hi Kat I agree 100 % i would rather pay more for high quailty items now then pay even more in the long run repairing or replacing lower quality products. Take care and ride safely dear friend Yours Hank |
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Post by teddy554 on Sept 29, 2012 7:39:35 GMT -5
I am not say you have some great countries and some great thing in eropue but we aint that bad off,
Not to along ago Bill Gates gave 30 billion dollar away, yes away to some Africa aid charity, and Gmc is the number 1 car company in the world again, and our 150,000 vet would whoop almost any over price car you have, has for the Concorde we have the f-22 so bad word the concorde
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Post by spandi on Sept 29, 2012 9:50:55 GMT -5
"We" (meaning the USA) did not build the Concorde, the British and French did. Our SST project was cancelled for environmental and operating expense reasons. (Exactly why the Concorde itself was eventually shutdown.)
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Post by skuttadawg on Sept 29, 2012 21:16:21 GMT -5
I have seen pictures and videos of Europe and scooters and WOW they have more riding them than in the USA . I guessed Vespa would be the most popular in Italy and Peugeot in France .
Do the ride Chinese scooters in China ? And for Japan which I think Honda would be the most common
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Post by prodigit on Sept 30, 2012 17:45:34 GMT -5
USA is certainly not bad off (compared to other countries), but it just hasn't grown as much lately.
Europe had. And as far as just Germany, there are many more countries in the Eurozone that have a great economy, like almost all the scandinavian countries, which make up almost 50% of the Euro. Then there's Poland, a super poor country before the Euro, now becoming a solid contender because of the Euro; in many fields.
But going back to scooters, another thing the Euro is ahead of US on, is the regulations. It's regulations are stricter (about on par with California's laws, in emission). So crappy products can't and won't survive in Europe.
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Post by chromestarhustler on Sept 30, 2012 18:16:33 GMT -5
european towns are also much more suitable for scooters, many are 400 years old or more, they are tightly packed because everything had to be with in walking distance or a carriage ride away, american cities are centered around the car, a 20 mile trip from the suburb to the city center isnt crap and amble parking was usually built in.
you work with what you got.
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Post by prodigit on Sept 30, 2012 21:30:34 GMT -5
AND, the gasoline is anywhere from $7 to $12/gal.
Imagine that in USA!
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Post by jwalz1 on Oct 2, 2012 9:15:40 GMT -5
Jwalz1: Italy LOVES their 16" tires! No question. It's just the opposite here in the states. Do you notice that as well?! I would venture a guess that the larger wheel sizes are due to their huge amount of rutty cobblestone streets. Most of the roads in Rome are really bumpy in the city if they are not a main arterial. Highways are fantastically wide and smooth, main roads are good, any sedcondary street looks like it was built by Emperor Nero. It gives the city an intoxicatingly charming look, but can probably rattle your gonads off with ten inch wheels. |
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Post by rockynv on Oct 2, 2012 10:12:22 GMT -5
When I had my Lance Vintage with the 10 inch wheels I rode it in Old St Augustine and the ride was so bad on the cobblestones that I had to bungie the top case to keep the lid shut at speeds over 5 mph.
The Piaggio BV 350 with as much power as a 400 to 500 cc bike while getting 80 mpg is a very nice bike. I am considering that engine in my next bike. By the time I am ready to trade up on my Sport City 250 I am hoping that Aprilia will be allowed access to that engine by Piaggio.
The Honda 150's in this country still sell for more money than you can get the $2,999 Aprilia 250 for so the price base or incentive must be different in Italy as I can't imagine a good Italian (yes we can be cheepskates) paying 20 to 30 percent more than the Aprilia 250 costs to get a Honda 150.
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Post by prodigit on Oct 2, 2012 10:20:21 GMT -5
Probably also rainfall (water on the road), and snow in the winter could be a determining factor.
If I where to only drive in sunny days, and on racetrack quality roads, the tire size won't matter much. Unfortunately for some Europeans, a scoot may be their only way to go about their business...
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