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Post by scootdudeman on Jun 9, 2011 5:59:25 GMT -5
It is in my opinion that 150cc scooters with 16" tires are safer than motorcycles.
Points:
- Scooters have no gas tank in the middle nor do they have any obstruction between the rider's legs. This means that scooter rider will avoid a pelvic injury that a motorcycle rider will usually incur in a head on collision. Also, any side collisions on a scooter has a less chance of causing a leg injury as where a motorcycle will most likely suffer leg trauma.
- With no obstruction in the middle of your legs give an option to the rider to jump off the scooter and do a tuck and roll off the side of the road. You do not have this option on a motorcycle.
-If you incur loose gravel and the scooter or motorcycle falls over the scooter rider will likely avoid any leg injury as where the motorcycle rider has a high probability of incurring a leg injury.
- Scooters have a lower center of gravity so this makes them less prone to loss of control and balance, especially 16" wheel scooters.
-Scooters have auto transmissions, one less thing to worry about when making split second decisions.
(Btw, I'm not factoring in highways, which I believe no 200c and under scoot should be on)
Can anyone add to the list or not agree on some of my points?
Examples:
Here is a scooter that is rear ended on the highway. Scooter driver comes out of this almost unscathed, had this been a motorcycle, the rider would probably on his/her side eating pavement or ejected forward. The scooter rider can almost jump off the scooter and land on his/her feet.
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Post by Bluefront on Jun 9, 2011 7:00:38 GMT -5
That lower center of gravity thing......questionable. I'd say something with a higher center of gravity is easier to balance than the same thing with a lower center of gravity.
Example.....try to balance a broom on your hand with the handle up. Then try to balance the broom with the handle down.....much easier. Whether the same principle applies to a scooter.....?
My Norton 500 with a tall single cylinder (heavy) engine, always felt more stable in all riding situations than my 500cc flat twin BMW. Just my experience.....
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Post by bullet on Jun 9, 2011 7:28:24 GMT -5
Take an MSF course and read Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough. It teaches you how to not get rear ended or t-boned. After 46 years on 2 wheels even this old dog learned a few new tricks.
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Post by scootdudeman on Jun 14, 2011 13:40:30 GMT -5
bullet you still can't control what cars will do. People will run red lights, go through stop signs, change lanes with notice, cut you off, etc. Bottom line is that if you fall on a scooter your leg will not be trapped under the bike like a motorcycle and that could save your life b/c you can almost jump up and run away or bail to the side of the road.
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Post by califmike33 on Jun 14, 2011 15:40:23 GMT -5
bullet you still can't control what cars will do. People will run red lights, go through stop signs, change lanes with notice, cut you off, etc. Bottom line is that if you fall on a scooter your leg will not be trapped under the bike like a motorcycle and that could save your life b/c you can almost jump up and run away or bail to the side of the road. But if the motorcycle is moving your leg isnt going to get trapped, just sitting on it and it tipping over yes, but doing 30mph your not going to get your leg trapped under the motorcycle. The bike will take off and slide and you will slide but not under the bike. If your just sitting on it yes, or super slow speed maybe. I dont find a scooter really safer than a motorcycle, scooters dont have the power or acceleration to get you out of trouble like a motorcycle does, most passes on a scooter above 40mph your going to have to drop back and pass, instead of go around a car. I have ridden motorycles for years and years, and have had some scooters, i feel much safer on a motorcyle than a scooter, just my opinion. I havent rode a scooter with 16" i imagine it handles a little better and takes bumps better. I also find scooter braking to be nowhere near to par with a good motorcycle, and no benifit of downshifting. The video of the guy on the scooter and got rear ended looks like he just cut right in front of that car, look like the scooters fault all the way. |
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Post by scootdudeman on Jun 14, 2011 19:24:30 GMT -5
I've ridden both and I feel safer on a scooter. I don't know about your scooter but my scooter is pretty quick and I pass cars quickly often. A 250 motorcycle is not much more powerful than mine b/c you have to factor those motorcycles as heavier as well. My disc brakes work just as good as any motorcycle I've ever ridden.
The point I'm trying to make is that a scooter has NOTHING in between you and your legs, you can dive off of it and do a tuck in roll as where a motorcycle you are stuck like chuck. Also, if a car catches you off guard and t-bones you your leg will be a prime target on a motorcyle. On a scooter your legs are tucked in the center so if you are t-boned the vehicle will hit the scooter, on a motorcycle the leg will be hit first and smashed up against the motor. Most motorcycle accidents involve leg injuries. I've never really heard of people getting leg injuries on scooters
What do you think would have happened in that accident video had it been a motorcycle? The guy on the scooter actually braked when he changed lanes, if a motorcycle would have made the same error do you honestly believe the rider would do better than the scooter guy did in the video? I don't think so.
Like the thread title says, I'm referring to scooters with big 16" wheels (w/disc brakes). I think small wheel scooters are bad b/c road imperfections can jar the hell out of you on the little wheel scoots.
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Post by WarrenS on Jun 15, 2011 8:18:28 GMT -5
My Burgman has 13" wheels and can travel at much higher speeds than your 150. Skinny tires can get caught in ruts so diameter is not the only consideration. I have had motorcycles and a Honda Passport which had large diameter tires. I did not find the larger diameter tires to have any advantage unless you are off road.
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Post by ericrockstar on Jun 15, 2011 11:08:46 GMT -5
Video was Hilarious! Almost swallowed a big wad of tobacco LOL!
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Post by califmike33 on Jun 15, 2011 11:39:06 GMT -5
I've ridden both and I feel safer on a scooter. I don't know about your scooter but my scooter is pretty quick and I pass cars quickly often. A 250 motorcycle is not much more powerful than mine b/c you have to factor those motorcycles as heavier as well. My disc brakes work just as good as any motorcycle I've ever ridden. The point I'm trying to make is that a scooter has NOTHING in between you and your legs, you can dive off of it and do a tuck in roll as where a motorcycle you are stuck like chuck. Also, if a car catches you off guard and t-bones you your leg will be a prime target on a motorcyle. On a scooter your legs are tucked in the center so if you are t-boned the vehicle will hit the scooter, on a motorcycle the leg will be hit first and smashed up against the motor. Most motorcycle accidents involve leg injuries. I've never really heard of people getting leg injuries on scooters What do you think would have happened in that accident video had it been a motorcycle? The guy on the scooter actually braked when he changed lanes, if a motorcycle would have made the same error do you honestly believe the rider would do better than the scooter guy did in the video? I don't think so. Like the thread title says, I'm referring to scooters with big 16" wheels (w/disc brakes). I think small wheel scooters are bad b/c road imperfections can jar the hell out of you on the little wheel scoots. |
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Post by califmike33 on Jun 15, 2011 11:52:03 GMT -5
First off most motorcycle injuries involve collar bones, then leg, injuries.
I think you feel safer on a scooter cause its giving you a false sense of safety because its not as fast as a motorcycle, and that makes you feel safer. I dont know really which techincally is safer, all i know is there both very dangerous and can kill you, dont under estimate a scooter 45mph crash is same as crashing 45 on a motorcyle your going down.
Now as far as you flying by cars and passing them, i dont think so on a scooter bro, in a 35mph zone i could buy it, in a 45mph zone i dont buy it, its a scooter, not a motorcyle. I dont doubt your scooter moves pretty well, but its still a scooter.
The other thing is a 2009 and up Kawasaki ninja 250 will blow the doors off your scooter bro with ease, run complete circles around it, that i would bet my house on. Beat you in every test you can throw between your scooter and a Ninja. Lets stick to comparing scooters, cause now your going overboard.
Dont take it wrong Scooterdude, i like your scooter, wish i had a 180cc in mine.
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Post by WarrenS on Jun 15, 2011 16:00:14 GMT -5
I was behind a ninja 250 with my Helix and nearly run into him every time he shifted.
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Post by shalomdawg on Jun 15, 2011 21:07:56 GMT -5
howdy, safer on a scooter? i doubt it. with the scooter you have nothing to grip with the knees to help keep your body center of gravity lined up with the scooter. having the tank there actually helps give you three points of contact. the larger diameter tires make some difference but not in stability as much as they don't go as far down into holes in the pavement or ripples in gravel roads. the triangular frames of most motorcycles give more rigidity which helps keep the frame flex to a minimum and therefore keeps all the geometry of the components where they were designed to be. the motorcycle is easier to see parts which might need to be tightened or are leaking or otherwise not up to spec.
all in all, i think the motorcycle to be safer and easier to maintain.
lotsa miles and smiles to ya
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Post by Premier Scooters on Jun 15, 2011 22:14:38 GMT -5
All 2 wheeled vehicles are dangerous. Motorcycles give you more more power if you ever have to get out of the way. I was riding a CBR1000RR on a 3 lane hwy in the center lane in pretty heavy traffic and I had a car behind me and to the right of me and all of a sudden a car come flying up the left lane next to me and changes lanes into my lane. I couldn't hit my brakes because there was a car behind me and I couldn't swerve to the right because the was a car next to me. I gunned it and went forward to avoid getting hit by the car. If I was on a scooter it would have been a bad day. At the same time that extra power can get you into a lot of trouble if you don't respect it. I love riding scooters and you just have to be more careful not to put yourself in those kind of situations.
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Post by mainepeace on Jun 15, 2011 23:28:26 GMT -5
I hear that argument all day long by Harley riders who stop by the store (I'm in the basement of a wine/beer shop) and ask about the scooters.
Sure, if you have the extra power then that becomes one of your "get out of jail" cards when disaster looms. If you KNOW you don't have the power to accelerate, then you start formulating alternative exits, as well as a DIFFERENT situational awareness where you wouln't get into that situation in the first place...
What happens if the one moment you NEED the extra power to accelerate and your engine dies? What will you do then? Do you have an alternative safety plan?
Personally, I would have never let myself get into a "boxed in" situation in the first place where I rely on other drivers actually following the road rules and driving defensively. I normally "get outta there" first and assume the driver is going to f'up.
Greg
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Post by scootdudeman on Jun 15, 2011 23:39:33 GMT -5
First off, I would NEVER ride a scooter on a highway, at least not a 150-250cc scooter.
You guys are only looking at from one point of view, being able to go faster when in a tight siitaution. That point is only valid on a highway or a high speed multi lane major road.
being stuck straddled on a motorcycle gives no options, other then the option of being able to go faster in a tight situation as listed above. On a scooter you have several options. First off, a smart person will not ride a 150-200cc scooter on a highway. Second, YOU CAN JUMP OFF OF A SCOOTER LIKE A DIVING BOARD if you are in a dire situation. Third, as stated above, your leg will not have to be scraped off the engine like you would on a motorcycle. Many people feel safer not being straddled in a fixed position, that's why they feel safer on scooters. Also, you forgot to factor in the better safety of having an automatic transmission as opposed to shifting gears. Although most people who have a manual tranny on a motorcycle, it's second nature shifting gears BUT IT"S STILL AN EXTRA STEP THAT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN IN ORDER TO RIDE THE MOTORCYCLE AND FACTOR IN WHEN MAKING SPLIT SECOND DECISIONS. What if you miss a gear or stall the bike when in a bad situation??
Bottom line, there are more safety pros then safety cons for scooters when you compare them to motorcycles.
Think about it, the only viable safety pro you have for motorcycles over scooters is speed, which only really pertains to driving on highways which a 200cc and under scooter should not be on in the first place. If you look at the scooter guy in the video above, when he got hit he landed on his feet. If he were on a motorcycle he would either be thrown forward down or on his side eating pavement, no way possible could he land on his feet like the scooter guy. Look at my points with common sense and not biased b/c you guys like or ride motorcycles.
@califmike - I almost ran into a 250 ninja the other day while he was shifting gears. Those things are as slow as turds considering it's a sport bike. They weigh almost a 100 lbs more than my scoot with only 70ccs more than my 180cc scoot. I bet you I could beat a ninja off the line 0 to 40 mph.
How do you figure a 100lb heavier motorcycle with only 70cc more WITH A MANUAL TRANNY smokes my scoot to pieces??? Top end yes, but on roads with 45 mph less I don't see where it would smoke me.
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Post by Bluefront on Jun 16, 2011 5:12:58 GMT -5
This "safer" thing is a subject without any definite answer. The number of possible situations where you get crunched riding any 2-wheeler, is endless. That "I can go faster" thing doesn't even apply to a scooter rider who stays off the highway, or away from situations where the traffic is going faster than his scoot is capable.
But are you safer off the highway and away from speeding cars......quite debatable, vs. in town riding with all the cell-phone morons, and their screaming kids in the back seat.
That 16" wheel thing.....I'd say it's safer than smaller wheels. The times I've hit pot holes, far outnumber the times my thinner tires might have fallen in a crack of some sort. A cycle with 18" wheels handles pot holes even easier....
Overall.....I feel safer on my 16" wheel scoot, than my 50cc scoot with 10" wheels, and wider tires. Trying to compare to a big motorcycle as far as safety is concerned....too many variables.
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Post by scootdudeman on Jun 16, 2011 11:13:36 GMT -5
I agree Bluefront but you cannot deny being straddled to a motorcycle can cause a plethora of safety issues when compared to a scooter where you have total freedom of movement. I wish they would do a study on this b/c I can almost guarantee there are benefits to having freedom of movement with a scooter.
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Post by sparkn on Jun 29, 2011 7:20:59 GMT -5
Just bumping this back up to the top so everyone can see once again how dumb it is to change lanes then look to see if it's clear while coming from the opposite side of the lane you're in just inches off the car in front of you moments after passing a tow truck carrying away a car that looks like it was just in a horrific accident.
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Post by bullet on Jun 29, 2011 11:12:29 GMT -5
First of all, how many of you could react in time to bail out, lay it down or do any of the things talked about on this post and not do them premature. Average reaction time from the time you recognize the danger to the time you do something is 3/4 of a second. If you think you can figure out what to do and be right in that short of time span, good luck. Even at 30 mph things happen quick and you cover a lot of ground per second at that speed. If you don't believe me hop off a scooter at 10 mph and see what happens. Always leave yourself an out. Learn to recognize a possible dangerous situation before it happens. If I am coming up on a blind intersection I will slow, move to the left in my lane and cover the brake. True, you cant control other drivers but you can control the situation they may put you in.
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Post by scootdudeman on Jun 29, 2011 11:30:32 GMT -5
All you have to do is review the video above to see how the freedom of movement a scooter offers helps tremendously. There is no way that guy in the video would be able to recover the way he did if he were riding a motorcycle. Sorry, but it's common sense.
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Post by bullet on Jun 29, 2011 14:02:46 GMT -5
OK I admit I didn't watch the movie, but now that I did I have changed my opinion. I assumed he got rear ended when stopped. But noooo that moron pulled in front of that car wearing shorts and flip flops. He did a head check AS he was pulling in front of that car. If you ride like that you had better have God on your side. He got lucky! And he got hurt. Don't kid yourself. He didn't bail. He got thrown off. IMHO its the scooter riders fault. Proper training, practice, and the right equipment can go a long way in being safe. He should try it sometime.
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Post by sparkn on Jun 29, 2011 18:33:51 GMT -5
Watching that movie over and over again (I'm addicted), I see no compelling evidence that a scooter is safer.
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Post by DanK on Jul 6, 2011 16:24:50 GMT -5
"Common sense" that he was safer in a scooter? What empirical evidence besides your opinion do you have that it was better for him to be on a scooter than on a motorcycle in that situation?
Me personally, I don't think it being a scooter or a motorcycle would have made any difference to the outcome.
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Post by scootdudeman on Jul 6, 2011 18:46:27 GMT -5
^^^Well he would not have the opportunity to land on his butt and hop back up on his feet the way he did. If he were on a motorcycle he would be scraping his skin off the ground and road rash all on the side of his body. Even more dangerous he could have been ejected off his motorcycle and laid out on the ground.
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Post by bullet on Jul 6, 2011 19:17:57 GMT -5
If he were on a motorcycle chances are he would have had a MSF course (and done a head check first ) and be properly dressed for riding. Sorry my friend, if you think he wasn't hurt or he jumped to his feet IMHO and with all due respect, I think you are wrong.
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Post by scootdudeman on Jul 6, 2011 20:30:13 GMT -5
^^ Re-watch the video, the guy did a head check before he made a lane change, he just happened to put on his breaks at the same time. lol I never took a MSF course but I have common sense to know to wear proper riding gear. The question is what would have happened if the guy was riding a motorcycle instead of the scooter in this accident, not what action he would have done differently if he had taken a MSF course. Understand the question before you answer. Thank you sir.
PS- There are many people here in OH who attended the MSF course and still ride with shorts and flip flops b/c they are idiots and know better. I wouldn't be surprised if this guy attended a MSF course.
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Post by kmrinpa on Aug 13, 2011 18:42:18 GMT -5
I'm NOT here to argue the good vs. bad on motorcycle vs scooter; I own a Piaggio BV 250 that has 16" wheels with a 110 tire up front and a 140 tire out back; the fuel tank is mounted low in the frame and the overall stability feels good to me; I don't like the entire shifting thing with a regular motorcycle, so the scooter to me has another advantage for low to moderate speeds; I know that I won't be able to keep up with most motorcycles, but that's not why I bought it; the same skills that I was taught in the PAMSP (MSF for PA) are applicable to motorcycles and scooters...the main difference is the lack of shifting with a CVT transmission-equipped scooter;
I watched the video...OUCH!!! thankfully the rider was wearing a helmet, but armor/padded/leather gear is a great idea for further protection; I am currently in the process of expanding my safety gear (helmet(s), armor jacket, hi-viz safety vest for now...as time goes on I will get some pants and better footwear); whatever you choose to ride, please do it safe and remain alert!!!
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454ltd
New Puppy Dawg
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Post by 454ltd on Dec 25, 2011 17:00:10 GMT -5
I have experience crashing on both.
The scooter I flew off of when I braked too hard, I don't like how I'm just sitting there on a seat instead of straddling a saddle, don't feel too connected to the machine. Guess the best thing is to avoid being in a situation where one must brake hard, I might have locked the wheel - I'm not sure. The brakes on the scooter where more responsive than on my old motorcycle which are impossible to lock up.
On the motorcycle if I have to stop fast I might slide up the tank a little but I don't feel like I'm going to just get launched off, feel much more connected to the machine with it between my legs. I crashed the motorcycle once by running off the road in a curve, the front tire went into a ditch and I was throw off and down next to it. My leg and ankle hurt but not too bad, not sure exactly what happened to them. I got back on the motorcycle and limped home.
My uncle was stopped at a red light and a lady overshot her turn and plowed into him, nearly took off his leg. Took months and months to recover, they almost took it off at the hospital. If he was on a scooter I doubt it would've been this bad, his leg wouldn't have been pinched between a bumper and a 500lb machine.
I guess it depends on the circumstances of each accident, hard to stay which is safer - wish there was a real study on it.
I always where a leather or padded mesh jacked, gloves, and a full face helmet being accident prone.
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Post by reynoldston on Dec 25, 2011 21:23:55 GMT -5
I would sure like to see this jump off and tuck and roll at 50 MPH. Are you nuts, you would kill your self.
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Post by quest4fire on Dec 25, 2011 22:12:37 GMT -5
The big disadvantage in the suspension of nearly all scooters is the inertia of the rear wheel/motor unit. The whole thing pivots and it doesn't move fast enough. Lots of unsprung mass. Larger scooter wheels add to that particular problem. Motorcycles don't bounce their motors, so the suspensions are quicker than on scooters. The difference is more noticeable on rough roads.
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