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Post by nitrogary on Jan 10, 2011 2:33:31 GMT -5
hey everyone, new to this site and i come with a problem in hand, first off, im pretty mechanical, just swapped a gy6 into my ruckus so im not afraid to tackle most things. i picked up 3 velocity scooters the other day. 1 150cc and 2 50cc the guy sez all theree are very hard to start (wow,all three  ) ive taken one of the 50's into my shop and charged the battery and here is what happens, btw they are 2008 models with new batteries and fresh gas....remember the guy i got them from sez they have been no start/hard start from day one, the one im working with today has 61 miles on it my eyes are tired from searching on here so before i go to bed here is the deal engine cranks and starts then after a few sceonds just peters out and stops. if i leave the key on and crank and crank and crank, nothing else happeens, turn key off, come back 5 minutes later and it starts then dies, come back 10 minutes later and itll run for a few extra sconds then again dies...i did remove the alarm system as i read on here those can be trouble and all three scoots do in fact have the alarm/autostart, i have swapped cdi's,no change. the wires on the enricher are pink and green and were backwards, i didnt think it mattered but i swapped them so they match up in the plug but that in fact had no effect. i have diconnected all the plugs and tried as best i could to make sure the connections are secure, still no change. since fuel is obviously present. im trying to proceed with the idea that the same thing may be wrong to allthree scoots,1 of which is a 150 gy6 which i eventually want as a donor scoot for a ruckus swap...but i i guess i really need to figure out this scoot and then make that the first thing i check on the others thanks for any help any of you can offer Gary anyways, these were bought from sunny sports for like 3000 for all three, the guy who i got them from was jsut tired of seeing them sitting in his garage |
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Post by relaxinrob on Jan 10, 2011 8:10:24 GMT -5
I would start by flushing the tanks, put into new fuel, new filters, check for fuel flow, then clean the carbs. A hotter plug may help too. Then adjusting the carb should get you the rest of the way. May want to check valve adjustment too.
I had one scooter that I did all this to and it still bogged. Had to raise the needle in the top of the carb. That did the trick.
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 10, 2011 8:32:30 GMT -5
thanks relaxinrob, i dont really see a problem in doing what you suggested, what do you think is happening to cause this issue ? when it does fire up it seems like it runs quite well, just to the point where it reaches normal idle speed then it just shuts down like the key was turned off. yes i could check valves but at this point in the diag why do you feel that could be a factor ?, there isnt any abnormal noises and the prior owner has got a 30-40 miles on the other two...arrrrgggghhhh !! hmm just went out to the shop and fiddled with the idle mix screw, no change though  |
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Post by scootercapecod on Jan 10, 2011 15:35:24 GMT -5
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Post by buiditright on Jan 10, 2011 18:45:00 GMT -5
I had 12 of these in my garage and the problems you are discribing has a lot to do with the valve agjustment. The best thing you did was take off the cheap alarms.. You said the fuel was fresh and the carbs cleaned I think.. So, that said did you change the fuel filter?? You should change that as with a new plug.
They come from the factory with the A/F mixture ALMOST CLOSED OFF. Check all your plugs and grounds.. Just for kicks I would still clran the carb really good one more time.. Also make sure you check all vacum lines the ones that come stock are trash. That is a good start and just so you know the ones you have are probably made by Katung manufacturing very poor quality scooter I will never sell them again..
Bill
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Post by felliott on Jan 10, 2011 18:51:48 GMT -5
I agree with builditright, Adjust the valves with engine cold.
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Post by edfr on Jan 10, 2011 18:55:40 GMT -5
Sure sounds like your Pilot jet passages are clogged if it only runs at idle when cold which means your Enricher is working. Once it heats up the Element and extends the Plunger it shuts off the Fuel and then it is up to the Pilot Jet and or the Air/Fuel Mixture to keep it running. In front of the Butterfly and a little back of the butterfly you will see about 4 holes in a diamond shape configuration. Those are the holes that the Pilot Jet allows gas to come out of for idleing as well as feed a little all through your throttle range.
That is why when you turn your IDLE SPEED screw Clockwise you are opening the Butterfly a little and EXPOSING more of the tiny Pilot Jet holes therefore your rpms go up because your allowing more gas in.
Lefty
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 11, 2011 0:27:30 GMT -5
edfr...it only runs for a few seconds then dies, i think i wasnt clear the ive never seen this thing idle for more than a few seconds before gently dying builditright...can you advise on what is actually happeneing since you recc adjsuting the valves, i just dont understand how it will start smooth for a couple seconds then die...i think that misadjusted valves would affect drivability and issues once running but im not even able to keep it running, it appears to want to start once its sat a few minutes @scootercapcod...you realize i cant get this thing running at all, hence not able to adjust fuel/air mix worth a damn im cleaning the carb currently, ive got the pilot jet out and all else seems to be free and clear EXCEPT the pilot jet, it does flow air through it if i put it in my mouth and breath hard but oddly the passage through the lenght of it is not straight thru, i cannot put a small wire through it from one end and have it protrude to the other end...is this normal ?
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 11, 2011 0:33:07 GMT -5
@scootercapcod...i just reread my post that i think i have misled you, what i meant to say was that though it fires up, it has in fact NEVER continued running for longer than 3 seconds...at this point my goal is to get it idling...i can definatly fine tune from there including rejetting if needed
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Post by edfr on Jan 11, 2011 0:45:35 GMT -5
Nitrogary, Valves, if they are to tight they will cause you to loose compression because they are not closeing to seal it when the piston comes up on the power stroke. To check if its your rings, take a compression test first, if its low then put a table spoon of oil down the Spark Plug hole and take the compression test again, if the compression goes up its your rings that are not sealing. Your right you cannot get any wire through the Pilot jet passages only through the Jet itself. But you can take out the Air/Fuel Mixture screw and Blow some air through it. Now when you take out the Air/Fuel Mixture screw there should be a Spring,Washer and a Tiny Rubber O-ring in that order. If you can blow air or Carb Cleaner or anything through the Air/Fuel Mixture hole You should see something come out by the butterfly. Here is where the Pilot Jet and Air/Fuel Mixture passages come out. If you do get spray out of those holes then, I would check your compression and or valves. Lefty  |
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Post by keetarider on Jan 11, 2011 0:51:02 GMT -5
The pilot jet often comes with a cross hair. I strip back a piece of electrical wire, then bend all but 2 of the thin copper wires back, and twist the remaining two together, and go at it with that. Won't go all the way through, but seems to work.
Soaking them overnight in carb cleaner, helps too. Compressed air or even a can of the compressed air for cleaning computer keyboards will come in handy as well.
Seafoam
I'll say it again.
Seafoam
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 11, 2011 8:30:13 GMT -5
edfr, i need to run this by you again, and i appreciate all the info and help from everyone, i cant seem to push a few strands of twisted copper wire through the jet itself, i can blow through it though, this jet is not the main jet which i assume is the one in the center of the float bowl which has a removable numbered jet (ive always thought this was the main jet (MJ). right now im holding the other jet about is a little over an inch long, i belieive this is the pilot jet (PJ), anyways air will flow through it but i cant get any strands of wire to pass from one end to the other, i just stuck right now thinking this should be a clear passage and not restricted, if this is normal, how the hell did they machine it that way ? lol
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 11, 2011 8:42:49 GMT -5
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 11, 2011 10:16:22 GMT -5
question: edfr, you say you CAN get a wire through the pilot jet and keetarider, you say that you CANNOT gedt a wire through the jet, i need you guys to agree one way or another on this point lol....i dunno if this is ultimately the source of the problem anyways but i dont wanna put the carb back together without being sure
thanks guys
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Post by edfr on Jan 11, 2011 13:58:20 GMT -5
Nitrogary,
I did not say you can get a wire through the pilot jet. If you can I could never fine one thin enough to do it either. But What I do is put it in my mouth and blow through it into your the palm of my hand. You WILL feel the air on your palm of your hand. Yes the long one is your Pilot Jet, take Carb Cleaner, they come with that RED Long small straw and spray into it and the spray should come out the bottom. Also cover the bottom of it and spray into and spray should come out the tiny little holes around it. That is what I do.
Lefty
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Post by fireyopal on Jan 11, 2011 14:33:06 GMT -5
Had a similar problem with my scooter, took almost 3 months for me to diagnose... After going thru the carb repeatedly, adjusting valves, replacing cdi etc. I read that the coil on these scoots can sometimes work fine when cold and then fail when warm. Replacing the coil fixed it right up...
Try swapping one of your spares in.
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 11, 2011 15:07:51 GMT -5
fireyopal...thanks for the tip, i actually have already done that....darn, i wish it was that easy ! this little POS is really a challenge so far ! I.....WILL.....WIN.......EVENTUALLY  |
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Post by buiditright on Jan 11, 2011 15:22:26 GMT -5
Nitro, Have you tried to adjust the valves? ?? I can tell you that if they are not within the limits and too tight your scoot will run and run good then stop or not start it will give you all kinds of problems.. I know I have been in the same place you ARE... It is not that hard to check them and if they are ok then you can go on to other things.. If they are ok then I was wrong and I will not go on.. But if they are too tight or bent then you have wasted a lot of time and money on other things that you have already found out that they are not your problem.. Seafoam is good so they tell me.. I have used it and used other products and I have better luck with the other products. But a lot of people live and die by Seafoam.. Hope you get them fixed like I said I had 12 in the garage then like a dumb---- I got 12 more.. The first ones mostr were ok had some like you are having then the second 12 seemed to be a little better.. But out of 24 scooters I had to adjust at least 10 of them.. and other troubles but the valves were the most trouble.. Bill |
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 11, 2011 18:55:34 GMT -5
builditright....i will adjsut the valves asap my friend, if your that adamant about it and your a scooter pro then id best trust your wisdom...what are your thoughts regading the passage way on the pilot jet not being "straight through" on one of my recent posts ? id like some clarification before i throw the carb back together if possible
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Post by buiditright on Jan 12, 2011 0:54:32 GMT -5
Nitro,
I am not a scooter pro just someone who has had enough trouble with these scooters that I would check the valves before I go any further. They will mimick so many things. You can change all the things you said and check the valves finding that they were too tight.
I had one that was doing the same thing that yours are doing. We replaced everything then ckecked the valves just to find that they were too tight.What they were doing was when they were cold they would start, sometimes and run good. When they would get hot they would close. As for the pilot jet if you have air running through it then put it back together.
Now check your valves and make sure they are ok. I use 004 for both. Yes everyone will jump on that and say it should be this and that but I have mine set at that and my scooter runs fantastic.
Bill
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 12, 2011 1:32:23 GMT -5
thenks bill...bieleve it or not...out of all the tools i have, a friggen feeler guage isnt one of them hahaha
ill bring one home from my shop tomorrow
again thanks to all for thier advice...much appreciated...ill post back after the valves are set...i watched a couple vids on doing this and it looks easy enough..most just a pain in the ass lololol
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 12, 2011 2:21:56 GMT -5
couldnt wait to post this revelation...put the carb back together and installed...i dont have a feeler guage yet as its just a little while after my last post but i couldnt help but pull off the valve cover and flywheel cover and set the timing marks for it and the cam sprocket to the correct position and guess what, those damn rockers are so f/n tight you cant budge them...if this isnt THE problem it surely is one of them i guess ill set them and see if she runs tomorrow night...now where does that extra vacuum line go to ? hmm maybe i shoulda marked them all hahaha no worries |
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Post by edfr on Jan 12, 2011 14:12:28 GMT -5
Nitrogary,
That is what I said if the valves are to tight you will loose a lot of compression because they will not close up and seal on the power stroke. I think you will now hear sweat music when you press the start button. I can hear it already purring like a kitten , after that it will just be minor carb adjusting.
Lefty
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 12, 2011 18:15:22 GMT -5
lefty...you just may be right ! lol
spent a whopping 3.99 at harbor frieght for a much needed feeler guage at lunch time...im so stoked to get this friggen scoot rolling that a i cancelled a date just so i can adjust these valves...apparently i am the reason i have no life !!! lol
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Post by edfr on Jan 12, 2011 18:29:26 GMT -5
Nitro, BUMMER!! Now that is what I call dedication. Hey why not invite your date to the shop order out some McDonalds and make a day out of it If she balks about being in the shop you will already know you will have to keep looking  Lefty |
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Post by medman1952 on Jan 12, 2011 18:38:14 GMT -5
Lets see, scooter, ....Date, scooter, ...... Date, scooter, ....Date. SCOOTER!!!!
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Post by edfr on Jan 12, 2011 18:49:06 GMT -5
GOOD ONE ;D
Lefty
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 12, 2011 19:26:07 GMT -5
picture that dog from the pixar cartoon movie "UP" where the dog sees a squirrel and suddenly focuses on it in mid sentence with the human and shouts "SQUIRREL" !!!
now picture ME rolling down the street and another scooter goes by in the opposite direction and my head immidiatly snaps and i yell "SCOOTER" !!!
again...i am the reason i have no life !!! but i dig scooter chicks
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Post by nitrogary on Jan 12, 2011 22:51:19 GMT -5
.................now picture this................get home,change clothes,spend 10 minutes adjusting valves (hey its my first time ) put it back together.....crank crank crank (remember the carb is empty from the cleaning task) crank some more and VROOOOOOOM she is friggen running ....yeeeehhhhhaaaaawwww
thanks everyone for your comments,knowledge and moral support....go ahead and send me your paypal addys so i can reimburse every one of ya for contributing your much appreciated "2 cents worth" lol
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Post by edfr on Jan 13, 2011 2:12:22 GMT -5
YEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! Didn't I tell you I could hear it purring like a kitten. GOOD JOB NITRO. Now on to the OTHER 11(HEHE).
Lefty
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