New JCL MP 250A Won't Start

[we350z]

I am having problems starting my new JCL MP 250A for the first time. I have completed the PDI as prescribed:

- Installed Mirrors
- Installed Windshield
- Changed Motor Oil (Castrol GTX 10W-30)
- Changed Transmission Fluid (Valvoline 75W-90)
- Removed Plastics
- Checked Spark Plug OK (NGK)
- Replaced all vacuum lines with quality hoses from Kragen (1/8" ID, 5/16" OD)
- Rerouted vacuum lines running fuel pump directly to top intake port.
- Replaced fuel lines with quality hoses from Kragen (3/16" from carb to fuel pump, 1/4" from pump to fuel filter & tank)
- Replaced stock fuel filter with ACE filter
- Flushed stock coolant with distilled water several times and filled back up with quality coolant (BMW brand).
- Sanded down dirty contacts on battery (TEWE Super MF 6MF8) and trickle charged overnight with my Schumacher 1 AMP 12V battery charger.
- Sanded down frame ground contact point to remove the black paint and re-attached the two ground wires to the bare metal.

I still need to eventually :

- Bleed brakes
- Check and adjust valve clearance
- Silicon connectors and screws
- Sand and paint a few spots on frame to prevent (further) rust.

I am having an issue with low voltage from the battery. Still no luck after charging battery with my battery tender overnight. Voltmeter showed it was pushing about 10V and it quickly drained down from there.

I jumped the scoot with my X5 battery (car was not running - can you kick start these?) and power is good. Strong starter but just keeps chugging and engine just won't start. I have about 2 gallons of fresh 87 gas in the tank. At first I could see the gas in the fuel filter moving a little like it was trying to get sucked up but it doesn't look like it's getting through the ACE filter all the way since I still see some air. I tried rolling the throttle at the same time to no avail. I tried playing with the lines by moving them around even tho they don't look kinked.

What do you guys suggest? I read something about spraying some starter fluid on the air filter and adjusting the idle screw and if all else fails checking the valve clearance. Wondering If I messed up the vacline re-route somehow (but I don't think so since I followed jrr's instructions verbatim).

As soon as I remove the cables the battery seems to be weak again. I need to get this thing running soon as it's sitting at my old apartment right now

I can get a new quality battery no problem or try a diff charger but obviously I have something else going on here too.

Would really appreciate any help here - I really don't want to walk this thing 4 miles through SF hills. AAA won't even tow it to my new place...

Worst case scenario I did find a very friendly and reputable shop close by that works on all Asian scoots and even offers free towing. They charge $75 to diagnose it.

--Thanks Guys!

[yoster]

Is the engine catching at all, or is it just crank crank crank? Spray some carb cleaner or WD-40 down the neck of the air intake. The idea is you want to get it to ignite a few times (start, stall), to help get the gas through the lines and to the carb. Mine came with a little carb primer plastic thing. Never used it since the dealer had it running for me before I picked it up, but I know others here have used it.

Try holding the throttle a bit too while cranking; try about 1/4 to 1/2 throttle (make sure the scooter is on the center stand).

[we350z]

Thanks - no engine doesn't seem to be catching at all just crank crank crank. I have WD-40 but I just picked up some starter fluid. Which one should I use? By the "neck" of the air intake where exactly do you mean? Air filter?

I did try turning the throttle a bit while cranking too. What does the center stand got to do with it?

--THANKS!

[tomcas]

Check and see if it's getting a spark and while you at it see if the plug is wet with gas.

[we350z]

What's the best way to do this? Remove it from the cylinder and touch it to something metal while cranking starter?

I did smell some gas at some point during my starting attempts. I don't see any leaks anywhere either.

--Thanks

Jun 9, 2010 18:55:08 GMT -5 tomcas said:

Check and see if it's getting a spark and while you at it see if the plug is wet with gas.

[cruiser66]

Priming the carb is usually required on these scoots as they are not gravity feed. Sometimes the vacuum fuel pump may have a hard time pumping enough fuel when just cranking the engine over for starting and the carb is dry. It also would have been a good idea to do the valve adjust as part of the PDI since the plastics are already off. It sounds like you have a bad battery which should still be under warranty. We'll be waiting to hear about your spark outcome.

66

[we350z]

What is the procedure for priming the carb? I have heard spraying starter fluid on the air filter and/or spraying some wd40 or carb cleaner down the neck of the air intake (where is this point located?)

Also how do I test the spark plug? Hoping it's something simple. I don't really have time to do the valve adjustment right now - someone mentioned cutting the battery box to be able to do this later? Otherwise I'll just take the plastics back off when I do it.

If the intake or exhaust valves are too far out of spec will it prevent the engine from starting or just make it run like crap?

--Thanks

[we350z]

bump. anyone?

[Gary]

Yes, sounds like a bad battery for one. But the scoot should start when jumped by you car battery. I'd try starting the scoot with the scoot jumped to the car battery and the car running. This won't hurt the scoot. If that doesn't work, I might start by removing the spark plug and making sure it is clean and not wet with gas. With the plug out and clean you can test it by connecting the spark plug wire and touching the body of the plug to ground (I think this is how you do it - I've never done it myself) With the scoot cranking you should see spark across the gap. If the spark is good and clean, reinsert it and try restarting the scoot when connected to your car battery and the car running. Don't roll on any throttle as that usually floods the engine. If the scoot doesn't start, try spraying carb cleaner in the air cleaner, or remove the duct from the air cleaner to the carb and spray there. Hopefully that will do it. If not, well, I give up...
Gary

[kczukiman]

I don't mean this to sound like you don't know what your doing but did you make sure your kill switch was on the run position? I have been guilty of this..

[fubar05]

and also you asked what does the center stand have to do with it? if it starts on the side stand it will lerch forward and fall over

[we350z]

Yeah. Scoot didn't start when jumped. I've read that you should not jump the scoot with the car running as the voltage is too high (14.4V vs 12V). Besides the starter seems to be spinning just fine. Do these scoots have alternators? My R6 had a stator (wet alternator).

I tried shooting some carb cleaner into the upper intake port, replacing the hose real quick and hitting the starter. I attempted this 3 times, no luck. Not sure what's going on.

That method for testing the spark plug seems correct from what I remember doing on my car a while back when I was troubleshooting a dead cylinder.

I tried rolling the throttle a little as some had recommended (also in manual) doesn't make a diff. Hopefully I didn't flood it but I don't think so because it looks like the fuel hasn't gotten past the fuel filter (tho I should have removed the carb side and checked to see if there is fuel there.)

I didn't try starter fluid although I also hear that is bad for the engine.

I gave up yesterday, sick of dealing with it and no time to do so. I do feel a little defeated. I called a local shop near my place that's very friendly and reputable. They are also one of the only ones around that will work on Chinese scooters. They got some pretty glowing reviews on Yelp and they have free towing.

mrscooter.biz
www.yelp.com/biz/mr-scooter-san-francisco

I'm sure they will get it up and running and dialed in probably better than I would. Probably gonna cost me ~$200 at $75/hr. At least I did most of the PDI myself.

Jun 10, 2010 22:54:32 GMT -5 Gary said:

Yes, sounds like a bad battery for one. But the scoot should start when jumped by you car battery. I'd try starting the scoot with the scoot jumped to the car battery and the car running. This won't hurt the scoot. If that doesn't work, I might start by removing the spark plug and making sure it is clean and not wet with gas. With the plug out and clean you can test it by connecting the spark plug wire and touching the body of the plug to ground (I think this is how you do it - I've never done it myself) With the scoot cranking you should see spark across the gap. If the spark is good and clean, reinsert it and try restarting the scoot when connected to your car battery and the car running. Don't roll on any throttle as that usually floods the engine. If the scoot doesn't start, try spraying carb cleaner in the air cleaner, or remove the duct from the air cleaner to the carb and spray there. Hopefully that will do it. If not, well, I give up...
Gary

[we350z]

Nope checked that - starter is working.

Jun 11, 2010 23:11:15 GMT -5 kczukiman said:

I don't mean this to sound like you don't know what your doing but did you make sure your kill switch was on the run position? I have been guilty of this..

[Bluefront]

Crap.....a little starter fluid squirted either directly in the carb or into the air cleaner won't hurt a thing. These scoots come with a completely dry carb, and maybe a stuck float needle. All they need to start is a little fuel of some sort....... Save yourself $200 and try the starter fluid (carb cleaner works the same).

[we350z]

Too late they already towed it away and are working on it. I was told specifically no starter fluid. I did spray carb cleaner in the upper intake vac line port, not in the air filter. This didn't work.

I tried 3 times replacing the hose quickly and hitting the starter, same result in that the starter just kept spinning and the engine wouldn't turn over.

["Big Guy"]

I think you made the right decision... we can usually diagnose a no-start issue in under 10 minutes.

For others reading this post, it is very easy to prime a carb without a primer kit. Just turn the small 90 degree breather hose on the side of the carb so that it points up. Then, with an eyedropper, squirt 2 or 3 shots of gas in it and then hit the key - works like a charm.

Starter fluid or ether is a definite no-no, don't do it.


-Rich

[we350z]

ahh wish I knew this little trick before so I could have tried it. Oh well It's out of my hands now and in very capable ones. I'm sure they will button it up and I'll get some education from them on what I missed.

Jun 15, 2010 20:24:41 GMT -5 "Big Guy" said:

I think you made the right decision... we can usually diagnose a no-start issue in under 10 minutes.

For others reading this post, it is very easy to prime a carb without a primer kit. Just turn the small 90 degree breather hose on the side of the carb so that it points up. Then, with an eyedropper, squirt 2 or 3 shots of gas in it and then hit the key - works like a charm.

Starter fluid or ether is a definite no-no, don't do it.


-Rich

[Bluefront]

I find some of these "no-nos" humorous......like don't use ethanol-blended gasoline. Like how do you avoid it when the whole state mandates the stuff? And how is it millions of people use it all the time w/o problem.

Same with starter fluid in gasoline engines.....just what do you think it was designed to do? It's not like you're soaking the carb in the stuff over-night. We're just talking about a few squirts into the carb, followed by cranking the engine over. Carb cleaner as the same effect on an engine with a dry carb....that's probably how the mechanic will "fix" the start-up issue, and then charge you for it.

["Big Guy"]

Jun 17, 2010 5:27:32 GMT -5 Bluefront said:

I find some of these "no-nos" humorous......like don't use ethanol-blended gasoline. Like how do you avoid it when the whole state mandates the stuff? And how is it millions of people use it all the time w/o problem.

I said ether, not ethanol...

Same with starter fluid in gasoline engines.....just what do you think it was designed to do? It's not like you're soaking the carb in the stuff over-night.

Really? So diagnosing the problem is not the way to go?

Carb cleaner as the same effect on an engine with a dry carb....that's probably how the mechanic will "fix" the start-up issue, and then charge you for it.

Uh huh... these guys are really unscrupulous aren't they? Thanks for your great advise! I had a good laugh as well!


-Rich

[Bluefront]

I don't find this particularly unscrupulous at all. If somebody brings you a brand new scooter that simply won't start/has never started....you spray some carb cleaner in the carb intake, and crank the engine over.

If it then starts up and runs ok after a few minutes......how much more diagnosis is necessary? You could let it sit over-night and start it again to double-check your work......maybe tell the owner to run some Seafoam through it for a few tankfuls. That just may be all it needs.

Now if you're really unscrupulous, you remove the carb and clean it out before you do anything else......charge the guy accordingly. This may be necessary in some cases, but certainly not all. Bet that's what happens in this case......

[we350z]

Now now boys. I tried the carb cleaner in the carb intake port - no go. Normally I would keep searching and doing whatever necessary to get the damn thing running but in this case I ran out of time. Not to mention I didn't and still don't have an adequate environment to work on it in my old apartment garge (I miss having my own stall) which I had to be out of (though I did change my X5's water pump there). I also didn't have any (inexpensive) way to get it to my new place. AAA doesn't tow motorcycles/scooters, and a Uhaul trailer or renting a truck or a commerical towing would have been $$$. I could have walked it 4 miles up and down hills but that prob wouldn't be the brightest idea.

I don't think I did a proper diagnosis because I'm not sure what that is or even where to start - that's why I am here :-) Dissasembling and/or cleaning the carb or checking the numerous various other related systems shouldn't be too difficult.

I figure If I can install new fuel rails/injectors, change CV boots and the waterpump in my cars I should be able to get this thing running. I don't have much experience with small engines, and unfortunately I'm getting the information too late in the game. Well there will always be a next time and I just hope to learn from my experiences and mistakes.

Jun 17, 2010 7:59:07 GMT -5 Bluefront said:

I don't find this particularly unscrupulous at all. If somebody brings you a brand new scooter that simply won't start/has never started....you spray some carb cleaner in the carb intake, and crank the engine over.

If it then starts up and runs ok after a few minutes......how much more diagnosis is necessary? You could let it sit over-night and start it again to double-check your work......maybe tell the owner to run some Seafoam through it for a few tankfuls. That just may be all it needs.

Now if you're really unscrupulous, you remove the carb and clean it out before you do anything else......charge the guy accordingly. This may be necessary in some cases, but certainly not all. Bet that's what happens in this case......

[JR]

Jun 17, 2010 7:59:07 GMT -5 Bluefront said:

I don't find this particularly unscrupulous at all. If somebody brings you a brand new scooter that simply won't start/has never started....you spray some carb cleaner in the carb intake, and crank the engine over.

If it then starts up and runs ok after a few minutes......how much more diagnosis is necessary? You could let it sit over-night and start it again to double-check your work......maybe tell the owner to run some Seafoam through it for a few tankfuls. That just may be all it needs.

Now if you're really unscrupulous, you remove the carb and clean it out before you do anything else......charge the guy accordingly. This may be necessary in some cases, but certainly not all. Bet that's what happens in this case......

Unscrupulous? Hmmm Now that's funny from a guy who buys all his scooters second hand off Craiglist, works on them for days and days to repair all of the broke things on them, condemns folks who buy online scooters which is what he bought second hand off of Craiglist, tried to buy one sometime ago with no title and didn't even know the requirements in the very state he lives in, hasn't even seen, sat on, or put a wrench on one of these 250's trying to tell someone who owns a scooter dealership, works on 100's and 100's of scooters including this particular one about the how to's and what's of what's good and not good! Wow!

Now we'll start your education on ethanol;

zfacts.com/p/436.html

Yes remember I lived in Mizzou and know it's been around up there forever, that's one of the reasons you see more cars in the junk yards up there too. I buy non-ethanol gas 5 miles up the road from me, 5 cents a gallon cheaper and point blank runs better and gets better mileage in EVERYTHING I ride or drive.

Ethanol very unscrupulous indeed. JRR

[Bluefront]

^^^^^WOW.....JRR and Lovelace sure do know everything about everything. Let me write this all down.

[JR]

Lovelace? You turning funny on me? You really don't need to write it down as you've known it all along! LOL

Kind of funny for someone to try to help folks on the 250 site who rides hand me down 50 and 150cc scooters and trying to act like they know something about any of them! LOL JRR

[we350z]

Isn't ethanol mixed gas common at least during the summertime months in most states?

[we350z]

OK - feeling pretty stupid. Apparently I didn't plug the Capacative Discharge Ignition (CDI) unit (little black box) back in and that's probably why it isn't starting. I had to remove that to get the plastic seat box out. At the time I didn't know what it was or what it did. Without that unit the spark plug will not get power - so there would have been a lot of value in checking the spark. Damn it.

[we350z]

Got my scoot back today. $304 including a new battery. Drove it home and seems to be running fine. Just glad to have it back and finally be riding.

[maxiscooter]

I could tell from your descriptions it wasn't getting spark. It was either a switch or something disconnected. Glad to hear you are back on the road again.

[we350z]

doh! Wish you chimed in sooner People had suggested after a while to check the spark and I just ran out of time and had to get the bike outta there. Oh well - I'm not moving anytime soon if I get in a bind again.

[kelhen]

I have a MP 150B JCL that I just bought. Its a 2007. cold start seems to be draining battery. I tried cranking the 4 stroke and it started once then I put the side kick stand down and it acted like a kill switch...lol. I knew this but I was going to close my garage door....lesson learned.

I need to know where the battery is located. I waNT to try and charge the batter to see if i can charge it to giver my starter more juice. Do you think this will work and where is the battery?