|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 12, 2009 20:14:34 GMT -5
Riding along about 35mph and threw the timing chain. Threw it, broke it, dunno.
Problem is that the chain is all down inside the crank case and I cant see it. Don't know if it's broken or what the deal is. Has anyone had one break or come off and have to retrieve it out? I just don't know how to get the thing fished out of there without taking the entire cylinder apart.
Any help would be appreciated.
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Oct 12, 2009 21:08:28 GMT -5
Hey Smorkle after looking at the engine diagram it looks like the only way to take one off and install a new one is to slpit the engine apart and pull the crankshaft!! One thing ya might try is to remove the cam gear and see if you can take like a stiff wire and make a little hook on it and slide it down the case and see if you can get lucky and latch on to it and pull it outward.
What concerns me is the fact that you said the engine all of a sudden just stopped and it's locked up, to me this indicates it is all wadded up around the timing chain gear on the crankshaft!! If so then not good!
How does the chain tensioner look? It doesn't make sense that it came off or even broke unless the tensioner was bad or the chain had a bad spot in it for whatever reason! JRR
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 12, 2009 21:19:10 GMT -5
Chain tensioner looks like it is working fine.
I was able to get some solid #12 electric wire and make a hook on it and I got one end of the chain. It is definitely broken. I can't get it to move though. It's stuck hard, so I'm sure you're right about it being wrapped around the sprocket. I *CAN* move the engine with the variator no problem so it's not actually hooked on the sprocket properly. Just wrapped around it where it isn't supposed to be.
God I don't wanna tear that whole thing back down again. Ugh. Well I thought this was gonna be a winter project. I just didn't think it was going to be a never ending winter project. The timing chain was something that wasn't even on my radar as something to go wrong at this point.
Oh well, now I guess I need to find a timing chain for it.
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 12, 2009 21:30:01 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Oct 13, 2009 3:48:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 13, 2009 9:23:01 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Oct 13, 2009 10:10:37 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 16, 2009 13:57:25 GMT -5
Today I took the entire scooter apart. I pulled stuff off right and left. I totally separated the engine from the entire rest of everything. I was preparing for a winter long project. This means war! But I stopped short of tearing the engine crankcase apart. I decided instead to get the old chain out and have a look-see inside it and see if I could come up with a better solution.
Well I did! I pulled the oil seal that is behind the variator and I was able to get my broken chain looped back around itself and pulled up through that hole. I believe replacing the timing chain can be done without breaking the crankcase apart. It's not gonna be easy, but I believe I can do it.
With that information behind me, I'm gonna order a new 52 link 26" chain, new chain guides, a new chain tensioner and a new oil seal.
I don't believe that the old chain tensioner is bad, but I figure I'll replace it while I've got it out and just know that I have a good one.
Anybody got any thoughts about this?
|
|
|
|
Post by earlwb on Oct 16, 2009 16:19:00 GMT -5
Bummer on the chain breaking. any reason behind it breaking?
it is nice you were able to get it to come out too.
Usually if you set the piston to TDC, then snake the chain through you can get it back up and then get the camshaft and sprocket timed OK. Though it may be a PITA getting the chain back on the cam shaft sprocket, it depends.
The big problem is the timing chain is a endless link design without a master link. So that means you have to break a link somewhere. then you have to press in a new link pin after getting it back in there. That is why most people split the cases to get the timing chain back on the crankshaft. Fortunately, the link pins are standard sizes, so it should be possible to get new link pins, as you cannot reuse a link pin once it has been pressed out with a chain breaker, press tool.
now Syn in Austrailia had done the chain breaking method when he was playing around with the 4 valve heads on the GY6 engines. You might look up the thread on his experiences and see if it helps any.
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 16, 2009 16:32:08 GMT -5
Earl:
I think the chain broke because when I replaced the cylinder head for my big bore kit install I installed the chain tensioner incorrectly.
Also, I think I can get the thing in there without taking the chain apart and without breaking the crank case. Just having trouble finding a chain to fit.
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Oct 17, 2009 1:05:27 GMT -5
Two Questions? How did you put the chain tensioner in wrong?
Also I think I know how you are going to get it on without tearing it apart? You will slide a wire down from the top of the engine and then pull the chain from the shaft end since you have the oil seal removed. Do you think it will clear and then will you have enough room to slip the chain back on the crankshaft sprocket? Also with oil seal removed can you see the crankshaft sprocket well enough to make sure it has no damage with the chain being all wadded up in that area? I sure hope so and with all the new parts you are going to put in it should be as good as new!!jrr
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 17, 2009 10:07:53 GMT -5
You're right about how I'm gonna get it in there. But I pulled the head off the engine first. The only damage I could see was to the chain guides. I certainly believe I can get the chain back around the sprocket it goes on. If I can get it in there without taking the crankcase apart, I can certainly get the chain on the sprocket! LOL
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 19, 2009 20:46:36 GMT -5
I ordered the parts from Roketa on Friday. I couldn't find any other site that had all the parts. I couldn't find the chain guides anywhere else. Most of the scooter sites didn't want to help, they just said look what we got and choose from that.
I had no other choice but to order from rocrappa.
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Oct 20, 2009 3:01:53 GMT -5
Man Bummer so lets cross our fingers and hope they all come in soon!! Did you order on line or by phone? If on line then give it about two days and call them especially if they don't send you a conformation number!
One dawg reported they charged his credit card and he hear nothing until he called them and then they got him his parts pronto! JRR
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 20, 2009 7:12:55 GMT -5
I ordered them by phone and they were supposed to have shipped yesterday. I was gonna call them today and see if they have a tracking number.
|
|
|
|
Post by earlwb on Oct 20, 2009 11:40:12 GMT -5
Well please do let us know how it goes.
This is most interesting on the method as to how you plan on getting the new chain on. Please take some pics and let us know how it goes and how you did it.
|
|
|
|
Post by widehide on Oct 20, 2009 13:18:34 GMT -5
I think he might have trained a very small and strong mouse, not easy to do, good luck.
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Oct 20, 2009 14:15:56 GMT -5
Well I know how he is going to try to do it, the main question will be is there enough room so the chain will slide in and not have to bend it?? We'll know when he gets it and if it does it will save a lot of work for sure!! JRR
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 20, 2009 16:48:43 GMT -5
Roketa sucks. They called me on friday and told me all the stuff was available and would ship monday (yesterday.) Today they call me and tell me that the timing chain I ordered (the only item I HAVE to have) that they said they had was broken. I inquired as to how it was broken and the guy told me that he broke it ***Trying to get it off of "another unit."*** They were gonna sell me used merchandise AGAIN.
They told me that I could get another one from china if I wanted to pay an extra $40 shipping, or I could wait up to three months. Needless to say, I canceled the entire order.
This is the last straw for me with Roketa. I will NOT order anything from them again. Even if they're the only ones who have it. Period.
As far as getting the chain in there, I already got the old chain to slide thru there bent over opposite of where it's broken. It WILL go in like that, but not being able to get a chain it may be a moot point. รท\
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 20, 2009 19:43:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by haywire17 on Oct 20, 2009 22:29:37 GMT -5
check with sunright inc. ask for Ronald he has helped me thru all my issues and had every part i ever needed, if he has the time he mite be able to answer some question for you . they have a web site for ordering parts Ronald Ho Sunright International 770-729-9065 ext 12 770-729-0196 fax www.sunright.netPlease copy this link ftp.sunrightservices.com/and paste it in your address bar of your Browser (some Browsers will allow you to just click on the link to follow it) Look for the file you need and save the files to your computer and then you can open them for viewing. they have a order form you can fax part numbers to them check with Ron , and maybe GiGi fast shipper also this is for the 260/300 linhai type engine not the cf 250. engine parts are the same I have vog 260 , body parts are different good luck joe |
|
|
|
Post by JR on Oct 21, 2009 5:21:33 GMT -5
If I was a betting man JCL will have them as the 250A is a carbon copy of the 250B and call these folks because their shop is 20 minutes away form the JCL warehouse, good and helpful people! JRR www.killermotorsports.com/articles.asp?id=137 |
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 22, 2009 16:42:23 GMT -5
Ok.... JCL responded first and the parts I was ordering were $40 + shipping. I figure if they send some of the wrong stuff I've still only spent half of what Roketa was gonna charge. They are going to pull the chain off of a parts bike they have there: A new, but damaged bike. They told me this up front so I'm less worried about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 28, 2009 21:07:09 GMT -5
I got my parts from JCL today. I didn't really have a lot of time to mess with it but I wanted to check the chain to make sure it was correct. I ended up shoving it in the oil seal hole and within 2 minutes I had the chain in there around the sprocket! No need to break the crank case!
I didn't take any pics, but I'm gonna fake some with the broken chain to show how I did it. It was easy. I don't have time this weekend as I have my kids for Halloween this year so I gotta spend as much time with them as possible. Probably the following weekend I'll get it back together.
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 29, 2009 16:42:52 GMT -5
I took some pictures on how to replace the timing chain in the 250B. I already have the head off, but not the cylinder. I also have the variator off and the oil seal behind the variator off. I looked all through my pictures and I do not seem to have a picture of the oil seal on, but I will make one when I get it re-installed. To begin with I pushed the top of the chain over the oil seal hole around the shaft and started to slide it in:  Push the top of the chain down and inside towards the cylinder:  I made myself a tool to fish the chain up through the cavity out of a piece of #12 solid copper wire. You could use a piece of tie wire or maybe even one of those parts retriever magnets or grabbers. Here is what I used to make a hook:  I shoved the copper wire up through the cylinder and grabbed the timing chain:  I grabbed it and was able to push it in through the hole while pulling it out with the wire:  I then pushed the chain down through the oil seal hole with a screwdriver. It was tight but I tapped it lightly and inspected it after the fact to make sure it had not been damaged. I tapped it very lightly so I was not very concerned.  After that, pushing it up over the sprocket was very easy.  With this level of engine tear down you will also need to replace the head gasket and the oil seal. I also replaced my chain guides because they were slightly damaged when the chain broke. Adjusting the chain tensioner is very important! I will take some pics of how it goes back in when I get there. |
|
|
|
Post by widehide on Oct 29, 2009 17:54:03 GMT -5
Good job smorkle, thanks for these valuable pictures and your process. here is a bone.
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Oct 29, 2009 21:36:13 GMT -5
Another new page in the history of the 250B written by Smorkle!!! What a go buddy!! Threw ya a bone your way, now can't wait to see ya riding down the highway again!! JRR
|
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Oct 30, 2009 13:06:26 GMT -5
I got the engine back together today and took a couple of pictures of stuff I wanted to share. Once again, the engine ran first try. It's making a "ticking" noise around the oil fill side of the crank case area. Dunno what it is yet but I'll figure it out. Here is a picture with the oil seal in. This oil seal is the old one as JCL sent me the wrong one. It didn't seem to be leaking oil after I ran it, but I'll still change it after I get the new one.  Now here is the place on the cylinder where the timing chain tensioner fits. Make sure it is clean and free of debris.  In this picture see the chain tensioner is fully extended. You MUST take the screw off the top and fully press it in before installation.  Here is what it should look like before you put it in.  Replace the gasket around the chain tensioner. I didn't have one so I used gasket maker RTV sealant.  Put the tensioner in with the spring sticking out.  Then put the screw/cap back on and you're finished. At least you're finished with the timing chain!  |
|
|
|
Post by smorkle on Nov 5, 2009 18:18:39 GMT -5
Ok... had the day off today and was able to get the bike back together and take a test ride.
The oil seal is a necessary thingy as it is leaking oil out around it. Other than that, the valves are still clattering a bit and I may think about adjusting them again, but I put some new gas in it and I wanna see if that stops it first.
It's making some other noises that I don't like, but maybe I'm paranoid since the timing chain broke. Didn't get further than 5 miles form the house because I *AM* paranoid! LOL
Gonna take a ride with some guys this weekend and see how it reacts. The piston still needs to be broken in so I can't gun it too much. Will see....
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Nov 5, 2009 20:16:41 GMT -5
One thing ya might considre since it's getting colder is to go to a 10W/30W oil for beak in. Remember .004 on intake and .006 on exhaust. Just got through with the valves on both of my scooters. JRR
|
|
