BACK IN 1954.......IN GERMANY!

[zippadeedudah]

I was attending high school in Germany back in 1954. I was a sophomore and all of 14 years of age. As most of you know, there is no legal age to drink in Germany. Many parents give the babies some beer. Anyway, I would like to make an analogy between Germany and the USA now. When I arrived I was absolutely astonished by the overwhelming number of motorcycles, pedal mopeds and scooters. Back then Germany had just partially recovered from World War II and common folk drove motorcycles, especially with side cars for the wife and children, even on ice!Of course, scooters were very popular. People who were middle class, for the most part, either drove a Volkswagen or a Messerschmit automobile. The Messerschmit pictured below was unusual in that it only had three wheels. If you were really "up there" on the socio-economic ladder, you might have a Mercedes-Benz. You did not see many of them. You will notice that on the Messerschmit you had one front door and if you had a front-end accident you could be toast. We teenagers used to go down to the German bars and get intoxicated and when we left the bar three or four of us would pick one of the Messerschmits up and transfer it from a legal parking place to up on the sidewalk turned at an odd angle. We were lucky and never got caught...lol



Well, some of the trends in America today make me think that our nation may be headed back to the German economy of 1954 and also to very small vehicles. People do not have nearly as much as we once did here. The national debt is out of sight. People owe more than they ever have on credit cards. The Messerschmidt reminds me a bit of the new MP3 scooter. I think there is bound to be a cave in here very shortly. What about the gangs, the pervasive drug use, sex at age 11-12, and what about an almost total lack of patriotism when it comes to maintaining our military forces? Do you know that some soldiers get a bonus as high as $40,000 to join the Army? I got nothing but of promise of three hots and a cott! So, does history repeat itself? Will we now revert slowly to cars of post-war Germany and will we out of necessity have to sacrifice to just have the essentials of life? Are things getting worse for us here? I certainly hope not for the sake of all. I am 67 years of age and to lose my life now would be no great sacrifice, but our younger people and the children need to have a chance at a good life too. Maybe they will, maybe not. What do YOU think? Is the advent of scooters merely becoming something fun to do in this country or becoming necessary due to far less disposable income? Why are so many incarcerated? What in the hell is that all about? Actually, I am for restoring the DRAFT. The draft has made many a child a grown man and served as a catalyst for furture education and success. What is with all this moral degradation and the attitude teens will tell you right fast, "Look man, I don't shiv a git about all that stuff you are talking. I can't even read or write very well!"

[scooterollie]

Certainly an interesting and important topic. Disposable income is shrinking for many folks and our middle class is reported to be shrinking. Twenty-somethings have a more difficult time financially establishing themselves and often live with their parents longer than my generation did because it is not easy to live the life style to which they became accustomed and save money for a home. Fewer employers offer retirement and health care on their dollar, putting most or all of that responsibility on the employee and far more employers aren't interested in career employees. In addition to that, much of the rest of the world is catching up to us, economically, at a very fast pace. As a country, we seem to be shrinking in our old age.

[Andi]

I think you hit the nail on the head, I would add to your comments by saying our remuneration and value system is completely out of wack. Nobody wants to work with their hands anymore, learn a skill, a trade. That used to mean something long ago, a Craftsman or Handyman was revered. Now everybody is after the quick easy and simply don't care to know the basics skills, many can't even prepare fresh food. How could it be right that a person for example making many pairs of shoes per day must struggle many months to purchase only a single pair? A farmer producing food can't afford to feed his family?

One has to have experienced hardship in order to appreciate the basics. My dad is your age and in fact was born and lived in Germany until 1983 as did I. My parents lived through the aftermath of the war and the rebuilding effort, they were diligent and worked hard, appreciated what ever they had and accomplished. I guess we all had it too easy for too long now, we have become lazy, greedy and soft.

Andi

[Enviromoto]

I hope we dont fall so far back that it will criple our country. However I think a recision now is better than a slow fade into nothing. I actualy think it may help wake up the country and get us back to what is important, liberty. Check out Ron Paul he may be our last hope to get this country back on track. www.ronpaul2008.com

Scooters are not only cheap and stylish but now more than ever a necesity for many folks.

[zippadeedudah]

Enviromoto.... We all have priorities which influence our votes in Presidential elections. It is very difficult for me to judge the merits of the war in Iraq, as I am not the Commander-in-Chief. A person who has never felt the weight of that office on their shoulders and the vast amount of clandestine information he has access to daily, would be hard pressed to criticize any sitting President. I visited the website of ronpaul2008 and he seems to have very favorable positions. The only thing that has stopped me from supporting his recent surge fully is his support of the "Fair Tax". I do not want the fair tax. I will not go into detail about it now. Suffice it to say that I have seen how it operates in other foreign countries and there was just as much disgruntlement and mayhem there as there is here now. As I said, everyone has their own priorities. For an old foggie like me, it tears me apart to see these young kids return from the Iraq war mangled and disfigured and with other wounds such as irreversible brain damage. I served two tours in Vietnam and the wounds there by and large were not nearly as traumatic as in Iraq. Therefore, I want that candidate, regardless of party, who will do (not just promise) the most to help our wounded warriors and give disabled veterans a decent standard of living. So, we all have our "ruthers" and that is why we vote differently. In addition to that, many young people of today have little or no moral compass, no sense of direction, no clear focus on success, and they are unmotivated and do not move about smartly as though they have any keen sense of purpose. As I am sure you know, many like to sit back on their glutes. In Georgia the average High School graduate reads at the 7th grade level. Now, ain't that sweet? The parent blame the school and the school blame the parents...a never ending cycle. I have had young high school graduates come up to me and ask me how to spell the most simple of words, such as say the word "put". Can you imagine that? To get out of high school I had to know how to do square root by the long method and many here will tell you it ain't no fun. Ok, off the soap opera. A Karma for your remarks. Joe

[flhtri]

These are truly scary times. Particularly for the younger generations. I am recently retired and have had a good life and accumulated enough to live comfortably the rest of my life. But I wonder if that will be possible for my children. When my wife and I bought our first home it might have been equal to 1 years pay. Now a new home is probably equal to three or four years pay.Gas was 18 cents not $3 ,and on and on. For many generations most adults were prepared for caring for their aging parents. Now I wonder if the aging parents like myself may have to care for their children. I feel truly blessed to have lived when I did. The future scares the hell out of me!

[zippadeedudah]

"The future scares the hell out of me!" >>>>>>>>>

Flhtri....I too have accumulated "enuf" to live comfortably for the rest of my life. While I come from a long life line in terms of years lived by my biological parents and grandparents, I am not so sure that is a blessing anymore. I do not want to be real old, say 85, and in a nursing home these days relying solely on certain medical doctors and registed nurses, the likes of which I have known. I know the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. But I would like to decide when my life is no longer meaningful and qualitative and when it is time to check out from this planet and perhaps leave more than just memories to those who follow. They are sure doggone gonna need it in my humble opinion. Joe

[Enviromoto]

Moral compass? The moral compass has been broke for over 100 years, how does one fix it and who determines the way? Also if you dont mind, which canadate are you looking at and why. Thanks and a karma right back atcha!

[zippadeedudah]

Enviromoto.... I will give you my views. Nothing is ever going to get done until we get a good President in office who has sound judgement and will be an effective leader, i.e. Kennedy or Regan. However, even if we had such a person at the helm, unless his particular party controls at least two-thirds of the Senate and the House of Representative, doodly squat will ever get done. We have seen that from the last general election when the Democrats gained many seats, but failed to gain enough to ram through anything that the President could not veto. So, I think the ideal political relationship between the Presidency and the Congress is one in which the President and the overwhelming majority of the Congress are from the same party. Once can make a case that if the Presidential party differs from that of the people who control Congress, that it provides a good cross-check on everything. I do not subscribe to that theory. All you get is quagmire just like we have now. Therefore, I need a crystal ball to be able to see who will control Congress after this next election to decide first the party of the President I will vote for. I do not hesitate to tell you who I am seriously looking at on the Republican side. It is Mitt Romney. On the democratic side I favor Hillary Clinton at this time. But I would not even bother to vote if I KNEW that it would be a two party struggle like we have now again. So bottom line, using my line of reasoning, one really never knows who to vote for, although in the coming election it does appear that the Democrats may make enough gains to regain control the Congress, but that is really NOT knowable. Oh shucks, we could talk this subject adnausaum...lol. Take this Karma and run to the end zone with it. Thanks for sharing your views! Joe

[Enviromoto]

Very interesting, thank you for sharing.

[fulltimerart]

Thanks, guys, you have expressed my feelings quite well---something like "going to hell in a handbasket". Guess that about gives away my age--I am 65--and I also feel very fortunate to have lived in "the good times". It is getting real scarey now and about all us plain folk can do is pray for the best. My wife and I are full time RVers and love the lifestyle and the freedom it provides, plus it is quite a bit more economical than living in a house. We are not the rich retirees in a big motor home, tho. I was talking to my brother the other day (on the phone)-he lives in New England and he said he had just filled his heating oil tank --almost $600.00 at $3.50 per gallon and that would last about a month. Luckily he has a good job, but that is rediculous---how is an average family supposed to keep up? Art

[bunnii]

Being of the twenty-something younger generation, I feel like I need to add something here that will initially seem completely off topic, but I assure you makes sense.

I am a feminist...and as such I believe in equality. But being that I believe in that, if there were to be a draft (latching onto the thing about the initial post that bothered me) I would expect it to not be limited to males. I am excused from pretty much anything to that effect being diabetic, but at the same time, there is nothing I fear more than a draft.

What incentive does someone have to fight in a war they didn't want started? Why should a person join when they're guaranteed to end up in a great deal of danger? Patriotism? Where does that come from? Does it not come from unity? How can we be unified if no one is willing to say "ok, I accept your beliefs, I disagree, but lets try to work together and see if we can make things happen." It doesn't work that way now. Very rarely are people willing to sit down and honestly listen to the other side and if they still don't agree, agree to disagree.

We don't need a draft. We don't need forced patriotism and fear. We need understanding and compassion. In the past, people didn't lock their doors because they trusted their neighbors. It's not like that anymore. You can't trust anyone anymore.

Personally I think the first step to improving life for everyone is for everyone to try to earn that trust back...because that's the only way I see for people to come together. You have to trust someone before you can work with them...and trust isn't just given, you've gotta earn it.

[ronnath]

bunnii said:

Being of the twenty-something younger generation, I feel like I need to add something here that will initially seem completely off topic, but I assure you makes sense.

I am a feminist...and as such I believe in equality. But being that I believe in that, if there were to be a draft (latching onto the thing about the initial post that bothered me) I would expect it to not be limited to males. I am excused from pretty much anything to that effect being diabetic, but at the same time, there is nothing I fear more than a draft.

What incentive does someone have to fight in a war they didn't want started? Why should a person join when they're guaranteed to end up in a great deal of danger? Patriotism? Where does that come from? Does it not come from unity? How can we be unified if no one is willing to say "ok, I accept your beliefs, I disagree, but lets try to work together and see if we can make things happen." It doesn't work that way now. Very rarely are people willing to sit down and honestly listen to the other side and if they still don't agree, agree to disagree.

We don't need a draft. We don't need forced patriotism and fear. We need understanding and compassion. In the past, people didn't lock their doors because they trusted their neighbors. It's not like that anymore. You can't trust anyone anymore.

Personally I think the first step to improving life for everyone is for everyone to try to earn that trust back...because that's the only way I see for people to come together. You have to trust someone before you can work with them...and trust isn't just given, you've gotta earn it.

for a "twenty something" you've done your homework and nailed it exactly. Trust went in the sh!thole with Gingrich and the republicans taking control of congress in 94.

Bunnii For Congress Now!

when you hit 35 it'll be........

Bunnii For President!

[flhtri]

Dear Bunni: I totally respect your right to have your opinion. But maybe you need to hear a differing view. I served three years in the Army with one tour in Vietnam. There has never been a more unpopular war in our nations history. Did I agree with the war? No. Did I like the idea that I was drafted? No. Did I have any incentive to be involved in that war? No. Did I like to be in a great deal of danger? No. Did I like to be shot at? No. Did I want to shoot at somebody else? Some times,when my life may be in danger. Was I patriotic? YOU BET YOUR ASS I WAS! I served because it was my duty. I served because my country wanted me to. I served so that people like you could be feminists or chauvinists or what ever title they would like. I served so that you would have the right to disagree with your government. I served so that we all can be unified in one nation under god. If you think I was a fool or our troops now are fools that is your right. And that is why all of us are or have served, so that your right to feel that way is preserved. Sincerely a Proud and Patriotic ex soldier.

[zippadeedudah]

Hi Bunnii.... Since I first posted something about the reinstatement of the draft, and it was that post you took issue with, let me just say this.

First, you are correct in the assumption that you would likely never be drafted due to your developmental affliction with diabetes mellitus. I can also understand why you say there is nothing you fear more than the draft. That is a normal feeling. Few ever liked the idea of a draft. As far back as World War II, the draft has been implemented in times of war and conflict when needed. During World War II millions of men were drafted. While there were many volunteers back in those days, including females, most men feared receiving that letter beginning with, "Greetings from the President of the United States". It meant their local draft board had selected them to serve in one of the branches of our armed forces. But the letter in and of itself was not final. There was the required physical examination and there were certain mental requirements before one was ordered to actually report for active duty. Millions of men fought in World War II and subsequent conflicts that you and I might have the freedoms we enjoy today. No one likes the idea of dying from a bullet between the eyes, but unfortunately many did.

In the Korean and Vietnam conflicts, the draft was used to maintain the forces in those theaters at an operational level determind by the President and his military staff.

Elvis Aaron Presley was drafted just as his career was taking off. It was an inopportune time, but he chose to serve his country. He did not object to it. He was offered a soft job in Special Services entertaining the troops with his music. He rejected that and was assigned to a tank. He later was promoted to Sergeant in Germany to tank commander after just two years. Conversely, Cacius Clay (a/k/a/ Mohammed Ali) contended that he was conscientiously opposed to war based on his religion, and was exempted from service. He was not the only one who was exempted from service. Many movies stars and important people were drafted and went voluntarily. The draft registration mechanism is with us today and men over the age of 18 must register for the draft by law. There is an actual "draft office" ready to draft people. It is rather skeletal, but the draft could be implemented rather quickly.

Moving right along to today! The draft is certainly not politically popular. Instead our goverment is doling out up to $40,000.00 per man to certain individuals who will agree to enter the Army "at once". I believe that with the deficit this country has now, we can ill-afford that. Moreover, they are now paying military retirees and active civilians who work for the Army, a "bounty" of $2,000.00 for each young man or woman they can influence to join the Army. Why is this? It is because we do not have enough volunteer troops to keep our wartime base sustained in Iraq and they are desperate for troops. The troops who have been there three and four times are just burned out and are suffering latent psychiatric disorders that will cost the government billions in disability benefits for years to come. The merits of the war in Iraq can be argued one way or the other. I do not personally try to second guess our Commander-in-Chief about the necessity of war. I neither have his knowledge nor do I have the broad overview of world affairs and intelligence he has.

I believe that an armed force should be truly representative of ALL segments of society. It should contain rich kids, kids who come from medium income families and from the very poor. I do not believe in having a mercenary type of armed force where you pay people to place themselves in a position to make the ultimate sacrifice. I believe that women should be allowed to serve voluntarily only and in non-combat positions. There were many women who served in all of our wars and conflicts, and did so as nurses, administrative positions, etc., in order to free up soldiers who ordinarily would have had to perform those duties and make them available for combat. While no woman should be forced to fight in combat units involuntarily, I beleive they should be able to volunteer for such duties and receive them.

A draft, or some form of mandatory public service, would be good for young men and women and the entire nation, with the draft taking precedence. It would convert these young people into mature adults. It would give them a sense of being, a sense of belonging, a sense of contribution, and allow them to mature much faster. It would save our national treasure which is being squandered only so the politicians and generals can say we have an "all volunteer force". Americans owe a debt to this society, and two years out of their lives is not that much to ask for really. If there has to be war, I want rich kids to serve right along with poor kids and yes, face the same dangers. After all, we are all Americans and in the boat together when it comes to maintaining the freedom of our country we love and appreciate so much. Shouldn't we all do our part? Joe

[scooterollie]

Flhtri very eloquently stated my views on this issue. I also believe it is naive to think that the type of enemy we are up against today has any interest in negotiation and compromise. They have no desire to give up anything or to just get along. Even if they would participate in talks, it would not be with the intention of achieving peace, only to appear to do so. We are dealing with an enemy who places no value on human life and has only one goal - to defeat us, at all costs, and dominate the world. "Why can't we all just get along?" is a question asked by many in our country today and, IMHO, represents a view out of touch with the reality of situations in our world today. I was of age during the Vietnam conflict but was never called to serve. If called, would I have - YES! Many in my family did so during WWII. My son enlisted in the Air Force last year. Am I concerned? You bet but I feel proud that he thinks enough of his country to want it to survive in a vastly changing world.

[medman1952]

First I want to point out that this forum does not condone political arguments, I hope this does not head that direction, it would lead to the thread being deleted.

I'm not yet in my 60's but do quiet well recall the 1960's and have a slightly differing opinion.

We were not a rich family, my father was a mechanic that worked very hard, he worked long hours including Saturday mornings, we lived in a modest house that cost him $12,000.00, gas was 25 cents a gallon most of the time and minimum wage was 65 cents an hour. I remember the minimum wage because I felt cheated when I was paid 27 cents an hour for working very hard for a man, but I was a kid and had no recourse to my knowledge. We never had a new car, my mother made most of my sisters clothes and some of mine, as well as her own. Mother also made things to sell, she did take in children for daycare.

I remember the Cuban missile crisis, JFK's assassination and there was this nagging thing on television every night called the Viet Nam war ( I got so tired of hearing the death toll) along with coverage of the peace protesters and draft dodgers. The first time I remember being told about this war I think I was in the first or second grade and I actually said to myself that I would not have to worry about it because I'm so young it will be over when I get out of high school, it took a few more years than I thought it would. Thank You presidents Kennedy and Johnson for sending so many of us over there and thank you president Nixon for pulling us out of that.

The good old days, those were the best years of our life. I had a teacher in high school that asked us once, "what are the best years of your life?" we answered back some age, his reply was, these are the best years. We said you mean our high school years? He said no the best years really are the ones right now, no matter what your age. I think he was right, because no matter what the conditions are, they could always be worse and they also could always be better.

Are we in a post WWII Germany environment, I don't think so, I see too many people that are indeed doing well and I live in one of the most depressed areas of the country.

Life tends to be what you make of it so make a good life for yourself, there is always a way.

Happy New Year and God Bless you all

[geetee]

Had a little time so was surfing the threads I haven't read yet. Came across this one. Am more than pleasently surprised. Members have asked why they keep coming back to this forum. this thread is a perfect example of why. There are some thought provoking, heartfelt, intellegent comments made here. And the willingness to open up and let it out without fear of being smacked is testimony to the equal level of the forum.

Here we are, a bunch of people who really enjoy riding, of all things, motorscooters, showing how deep our keels really go. As far as I'm concerned, we are a cross section of what this great country is and wants to be. My hat is off to all of you. GT

[zippadeedudah]

GeeTee.... I must commend you on your broad perspective relating to matters of this sort. Openness, transparency and broadmindedness, as well as peace and harmony, are the strengths of all well regulated forums and businesses. How can your fault those precepts? Please accept this Karma and my personal support of your views. Joe