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Post by czechmate on Apr 19, 2009 21:58:29 GMT -5
Well, the weather in ND got finally decent so I was going to take the scooter for a ride but it won't start. I had previously some carb issues but it seems not to be the case this time.
I removed the spark plug and I got no spark (I touched the body frame with it). The fuel pump, if I'm not mistaken, should be "ticking" when the key is in ON position. I also checked and there's no fuel coming out to the carb either.
I checked and replaced the fuses as well -I found 5 of them but it didn't help either.
It appears to be electrical but I'm not sure where to start and I'd appreciate your suggestions.
Thanks,
Nik
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Post by whenpigsfly on Apr 19, 2009 23:31:46 GMT -5
Hi czechmate, I'm not sure this will be relevant to your situation; however, I recently endured an infuriating electrical problem only to find a severed kickstand shut-off switch wire. It appeared that the wire had been "squashed" at some point (possibly during crating/shipping) yet continued to make enough of a connection to complete the electrical circuit. For 850 miles, my scooter ran flawlessly, until the wire gradually worked itself completely in two. It took me weeks to find the problem.  Like I said, this might not be the problem, but it's worth a quick look. |
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Post by cruiser66 on Apr 19, 2009 23:40:12 GMT -5
Hi czechmate, I'm not sure this will be relevant to your situation; however, I recently endured an infuriating electrical problem only to find a severed kickstand shut-off switch wire. It appeared that the wire had been "squashed" at some point (possibly during crating/shipping) yet continued to make enough of a connection to complete the electrical circuit. For 850 miles, my scooter ran flawlessly, until the wire gradually worked itself completely in two. It took me weeks to find the problem. Like I said, this might not be the problem, but it's worth a quick look. That must have been very frustrating, but you persevered. +1 for not giving up.... 66 |
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Post by whenpigsfly on Apr 20, 2009 12:32:46 GMT -5
Thanks cruiser66, I can't tell you how frustrating it was. When the scooter stopped running one day during a ride, I brought it home and gave it a quick once-over; however, I reached my wits end almost immediately (I'm embarrassingly impatient at times). The problem wasn't immediately apparent, so I gave up and hauled my scooter to a 'mechanic' who kept it for three weeks and swore to me that he'd "looked at absolutely everything." He charged me $400.00 and my scooter still didn't run. I loaded it on the trailer, brought it home, and was ready to park it by the dumpster. To add insult to injury, it just so happened, that I looked down when I was releasing my tie-downs and saw the severed shut-off switch wire. I by-passed the switch, and she started right up! That was a $400.00 lesson that greatly improved my learning curve if nothing else.  |
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Post by allworld on Apr 20, 2009 12:56:09 GMT -5
Hello czechmate:
Do you have lights and horn?
There is a fuse located by the battery in that red rubber block beside the battery. I think it is 20 amp.
Make sure the ground wire is connected.
Check the wire off the back of the cdi unit
Check the kill switch located with the side stand.
Check the screw inside the spark plug boot.
Check the wire off the coil.
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Post by cstephen on Apr 20, 2009 15:10:17 GMT -5
Both times mine died, it was the CDI unit in each instance. One time, it flat out died just like yours did, the second day I had the scooter.
The second time was a couple of months later, and the CDI started acting up intermittently. It would run for 20 minutes, or until it got hot, then it would die and not crank back up for a couple of hours, until the scooter had cooled off completely. That time, I also had the coil replaced under warranty, but it wasn't the coil. Sunright will ship you a new CDI, maybe not under warranty, but they have them in stock.
Eliminate all the other stuff first, but based on my own experience, the CDI is the #1 electrical culprit on these scooters. Mine has been fine since last October when I finally got CDI #3 installed.
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Post by allworld on Apr 20, 2009 15:56:06 GMT -5
Hello czechmate:
Today I left work early because of the holiday, so when I shut my scooter off to open the garage door, and then went to re-start it nothing. What a sinking feeling, then I remembered what I told you, so I check my side kick stand (that little kill switch) sort of let it slam up a couple of times and it then fired right up.
I know your scooter was running last fall before you stored it for the winter, so I am guessing that is the cause of your problem.
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Post by cstephen on Apr 20, 2009 16:08:55 GMT -5
If that doesn't work, I still vote CDI. That little booger almost gave me gray hair the second time it died, and I'm only 28!
The first time, like I said, it died overnight literally on the second day I had the scooter. Was running fine and then next day, nothing.
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Post by torque on Apr 20, 2009 18:24:44 GMT -5
so I check my side kick stand (that little kill switch) sort of let it slam up a couple of times and it then fired right up. Just where is this kick stand switch located? I have a feeling mine has stuck on me a couple of times too. |
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Post by allworld on Apr 20, 2009 18:46:35 GMT -5
Hello torque:
If you look under the scooter at the pinned end of the side kick stand, you will see a plunger type switch, some time the plunger gets stuck.
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Post by torque on Apr 20, 2009 20:00:18 GMT -5
some time the plunger gets stuck. A little WD-40, maybe? Worked with my sticky brake light switch. |
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Post by whenpigsfly on Apr 20, 2009 21:29:16 GMT -5
torque,
I use white lithium grease on mine. The switch is made to be waterproof of course, so I'm really not sure how much lubrication actually gets into the switch. I'd guess either WD-40 or white lithium grease would either one do the trick, just be sure and work it in by pressing the switch a few times after application. I am able to press my switch by hand, it doesn't take a lot of force to move it.
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Post by czechmate on Apr 20, 2009 22:01:34 GMT -5
I got lights and horn. The start cranks the engine but it won't start. I replaced all the fuses (6 total and I hope I'm not missing any).
Where's the ground wire?
I checked all the wires, cdi unit as well.
I wiggled the kill switch
I didn't know that there was a screw in the spark plug boot.
The wire off the coil looks normal
I'm still wondering if I should be getting the fuel pump working after I set the key in ON position.
Last year the scooter was working just fine until I let it sit for about two weeks. I started it because I wanted to run Stabil through the system and I realized that I needed to open the trunk so stopped the engine. 15 seconds later the engine wouldn't start.
I guess I'll keep looking and maybe I'll find the issue. I'm also going to contact Jim at Sunright and maybe he'll have an idea. They're really nice people to work with.
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Post by allworld on Apr 21, 2009 7:47:26 GMT -5
That has been my experience as well, keep us posted.
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Post by czechmate on Apr 21, 2009 21:27:03 GMT -5
I talked to Jim at Sunright today and I learned that the electric fuel pump should be pumping fuel into the carburetor right after the key in ON position. Mine doesn't. It's an odd think that I don't have spark and no fuel supply from the pump. I just don't know how those to things would be related. I'm really afraid that there's gonna be a split wire somewhere or something like that I'll never be able to find. I'm getting a little bit frustrated...again. I'll keep digging.
Nik
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Post by allworld on Apr 22, 2009 6:31:35 GMT -5
Nik, could there be some wire clip that has come loose under the dash board?
You have light and and horn so the ignition/key is good, from there the wires split off, follow them and see, or start at the fuel pump and trace the wires back to the ignition.
I will keep thinking, and post anything I can come up with.
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Post by czechmate on Apr 24, 2009 8:35:33 GMT -5
Update.
I removed most of the body parts to get good access to the engine area.
I found out that the pump was working and I had spark and a wet sparkplug.
I removed the carb (again), drained it and cleaned it. After I let it sit for about a day I put the carb back in, but I still wasn't able to start the scooter.
I just don't where else to go.
This whole thing makes me realy frustrated and I'm just about to give up on this riding season. I got only 1700 milels on it and I didn't expect to have these kind of problems this soon.
Nik
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Post by whenpigsfly on Apr 24, 2009 10:22:33 GMT -5
Nik,
It really sounds electrical to me. If you have an ohm/volt meter, you can test the reading at your ignition coil to make sure you're getting power to the coil. Unfortunately, tracing electrical problems can be incredibly tedious. Don't give up, you'll eventually find the problem, it's just going to take a little time.
I completely understand your frustration, I was ready just to dump my scooter after having trouble finding my electrical problem. We're able to ride almost year round here in West Texas, so all I could see was my riding time slipping away while my scooter was in the garage.
I know you'd mentioned contacting Jim with Sunright, he was always very helpful when I was trying to trace my problem. Jim Johnson at Bandit was also great (I bought from Bandit, so of course he was willing to help a customer). Just prior to finding my problem, Jim J. was arranging to have his mechanic call me to trouble shoot over the phone. Since the sales season isn't in full swing, you might give Bandit a call and see if they'd be willing to help, they're really nice guys.
Best of luck, I know your 'ah ha' moment is just around the corner.
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Post by allworld on Apr 24, 2009 10:24:15 GMT -5
Hello Nik: Take a deep breath........... If there is fuel and a spark, what is left? Is it getting to much fuel and is flooding? Could it be the valves (exhaust valve, lower) is shut. Air take blocked?
I will post anything else I can think of.
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Post by czechmate on Apr 24, 2009 12:58:58 GMT -5
Guys, thanks for your support!
Yes, there's spark, the fuel is flowing. The carburetor was taken apart, drained and cleaned. I'm charging the battery and I'm going to try starting the scooter again tonight. I was thinking about the valves as well but that should be the issue after 1700 miles. I wish I could test different parts...the pump, coil, carburetor to troubleshoot the problem better. I don't know how much fuel the pump should be pumping. I had carb flooding right after I got the scooter but I was able to fix that.
It's snowing in ND again so I wouldn't be able to ride the scoot anyway. I'll keep working on the scoot and maybe I'll get lucky.
Nik
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Post by allworld on Apr 24, 2009 13:48:39 GMT -5
I will keep thinking an ask a few people I know if they have any thoughts as to what could be the problem.
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Post by czechmate on Apr 24, 2009 16:13:14 GMT -5
Allworld,
Thanks again for your help.
I hate being unable to ride, but on the other hand, I enjoy digging in the scooter and I think I know it pretty well by now.
I know that when this problem is solved I'll have to work on another. I know that there's at least one other member with the same problem. Whe I try to start, the starter motor gets stuck with a loud metal clunk noise. I have to try it 2 or 3 time to start the scooter. I notice it's getting worse. Well, there's always something.
Have a great weekend and fun and safe riding.
Nik
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Post by realitycheck on Apr 24, 2009 18:20:42 GMT -5
Czech, you might want to look at the wire on your coil closest to the engine.(rear of coil) I had an issue last summer with mine that just so happened to pop up again today. I was topping a hill and my scoot just shutdown, coasted to the bottom. I immediately removed the lower panel only to find my coil wire dangling, where it had broke at the terminal. That wire is extremely thin, make sure it is in the connector good, otherwise you will crank all day with nothing to show for it but a dead battery.
The first time it happened, the wire was loose in the connector, this time it just broke off.
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Post by torque on Apr 24, 2009 20:08:03 GMT -5
Whe I try to start, the starter motor gets stuck with a loud metal clunk noise. I have to try it 2 or 3 time to start the scooter. I notice it's getting worse. Well, there's always something. Have a great weekend and fun and safe riding. Nik Wait a minute -- Am I reading this correctly? Your scoot will start after 2-3 tries? Starter gets stuck with a metal clunk? Mine does that 2-3 times per week. Usually only "thunks" once before I get it started. Does the scooter run ok after you start it? I think someone told me they thought this "clunk" was a compression issue if remember correctly. Can't remember what thread that was. But if you're getting it to run after 2-3 tries, then the spark and fuel supply must be working, right? If that's so, then doesn't it sound like more of a starter issue? |
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Post by torque on Apr 24, 2009 20:12:09 GMT -5
or timing?
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Post by czechmate on Apr 25, 2009 16:53:46 GMT -5
Torque,
I think that you're not reading that post correctly. I say that there's another problem after I solve the starting problem -the metal clunk before the scooter starts. Although both problems are related to starting the scooter, they're completely different. The scooter right now won't start at all.
I'd like to find the thread about it -I remember that somebody mentioned it some time ago.
How would the timing be off? What kind of compression issue?
Thanks,
Nik
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Post by harrywr2 on Apr 25, 2009 17:11:43 GMT -5
I was thinking about the valves as well but that should be the issue after 1700 miles. The greatest movement in valve gap occurs in the 1st 1,000 miles. Early 1980's Honda Civics(quality cars right) had to have the valve gaps adjusted at 500 miles. It's no so much a wear issue as a breakin issue. Or go over to the Burgman USA forum and read the gazillions posts of people with pre 2007 Burgman 400's whining that they needed the valve gap adjusted at 1,000 miles. here's one...guy claims it's an 8 hour job... www.burgmanusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13460 |
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Post by cstephen on Apr 25, 2009 17:30:39 GMT -5
Well, according to him, he has spark. If the wire was loose, I would think there would be no spark?
Mine has done this from almost since when it was new. Someone also told me that this might be a compression issue and I know other Linhai owners have this problem. It doesn't bother me, because mine always starts on the second try, if it clunks on the first try. It doesn't seem to be getting worse, it's the same as it's always been.
Czech, my scooter has over 3,500 miles on it and I've not touched the valves. The scooter runs perfect and starts up strong (except for the occasional clunk) and never stalls or dies while I'm riding. Scooter Ollie checked his around 3,000 and if I recall correctly, said they were dead on spec. Allworld checked his awhile back and said the exhaust valve needed adjusting. I'm going to wait awhile longer to adjust mine, I am at least going to ride through the summer. I will do it around 5,000 miles unless something happens sooner that requires me to adjust / check it.
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Post by torque on Apr 25, 2009 20:39:09 GMT -5
czechmate,
Have you tried seafoam? I had an instance about 2 weeks ago -- scoot had set for a few days. Started it up to warm it up for the morning ride. Started and ran fine. Stopped it to load it for the ride to work. 10 minutes later -- wouldn't start! Cranked, but not firing. Tried 6 or 7 times -- no go. By that time I had flooded it (I could smell it.)
Put the charger on it for about 20 minutes to get the battery all juiced up. Put an ounce of seafoam in the tank (I only had about a gallon of gas left in her). Pressed the starter -- it cranked a few times and vrooomm! All good again.
Since then, whenever it seems to get a little finicky, I run some seafoam thru it. I think there must be some gasoline out there that it doesn't particularly like. Or maybe I've got a gas station around here with a dirty tank or something. I still need to replace my plug, but so far, this has helped.
If you haven't tried it yet, it might be worth a shot!
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Post by czechmate on Apr 25, 2009 22:13:46 GMT -5
Here’s an update.
My father-in-law and I looked the scooter again and we found really interesting thing.
At first I thought I didn’t have the pump working and spark. We tested the spark plug and the pump and neither of them worked.
But…and this is the interesting thing. AFTER I released the start button with the key in ON position, I got spark and the fuel started pouring of the fuel line. Weird!
We tried repeating that process at least three times with same result. Nothing was happening when I put the key in the ignition and turned it to ON. Then I hit the brake lever and start button and still nothing, only the starter motor was turning the engine. After I released the brake and start button, the pump started pumping fuel and I got spark. I think this is pretty bizarre.
I also noticed last year during a time the scooter was running just fine that the pump was ticking after I killed the engine. I never left the key in the ignition long enough to be a problem (flooding). I just don’t think, anymore, that it was normal.
I’m assuming that there’s an electrical problem. I hope it’s just a bad switch and not a shorted wire. I will contact Sunright about this problem and I hope they’ll be able to help.
Thank you guys for help! This has been very frustrating for me and I’m glad I’m getting somewhere. This last winter was incredibly cold and long with so much snow. I was just ready for some good riding but I got to wait a little bit longer. I hope the scooter will be fixed soon.
Thanks,
Nik
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