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Post by jtl on Jul 26, 2008 11:44:56 GMT -5
I have never owned a scooter, but been trying to learn what ever I can. Initially I was going to get a 150cc until I learned that it now requires (as of July 1st) taking a $250 15 hours safety class in order to get a license. Since both my wife and I would be riding that means $500 before I even make a purchase. So Now I am looking at 50cc scoots and I am very concerned about the slowness of a 4 stroke vs a 2 stroke. What would be a reasonable scoot to start with that maybe I could mod later on to enhance the performance? I like the retro stye more than what I call the "racing" look. Thanks any help.
John
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Post by kaintuckdave on Jul 26, 2008 11:56:54 GMT -5
See if you have a SYM dealer anywhere near. They are from Taiwan and just as reliable as the Japanese scoots but not as expensive. I'm pretty sure the 'Fiddle' is a 2-stroke. I've got a DD 50 but it's more the racing style where the Fiddle is retro, but they have the same motor. I just put a performance exhaust on mine and it's a super solid 35 mph now even up hills. You really don't want a 50cc on any road above 35 mph anyway. Good Luck in your search!  |
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Post by troj4nm4n on Jul 26, 2008 11:59:27 GMT -5
not much you can do with 4 strokes other than upgrade things like getting a 72cc kit ... 2 strokes you can get more power with not a whole lot of $$$ take out the restrictions , larger jet and free flow filter and change out the exhaust ... mine registers 50 and was doing 35 when i got it ... now minus restrictions it does right at 50 with no other performance parts
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Post by rerun2 on Jul 26, 2008 12:21:52 GMT -5
Welcome to the pound jtl!!! Kaintuckdave shares my high regard for the SYM line of scooters, regardless of the size you would like to have. I am of the opinion that the SYM quality is every bit as good as ANY of the European or Japanese machines. A quick review of SYM as a company should show anyone that these people are super at what they do, and more likely than not have built a large percentage of Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki 'main ingredients' for a lot of years! No, I do not own a SYM nor have anything in connection with them, just think they have great products that are VERY under priced at this time. OK, I would suggest that you buy ALL the power you want in the stock bike from the start. Mods are great, but can get expensive and just the downtime can be considerable. I had a 50cc with about all the mods you could think of, and it would really haul out... but it was working hard to to perform as a 150cc will do 'out of the box'. And the initial price of the 50cc and 150cc models is not a lot different, $100? A good cylinder kit for a 50cc will cost twice that just for the kit, and the bike will not get but an additional 5 mph. max. I think the used market can find you a larger displaced machine from a major company, and have a lot of service life in it. (most cycles are bought for recreation, like boats, and rarely see the anticipated use the buyer imagined). OK, the two stroke machines will outperform the 4 strokes of the same displacement, and are somewhat less costly to hop up. But be aware that once anything is done to make the machine above the 50cc threshold, it is then the same under the law as a 150cc. A ton of 150cc bikes are used in the 'stealth mode' just as if they were standard 50cc bikes. Most of them cosmetically are the same and few in law enforcement are all that concerned about it. Just as an FYI, not recommending anyone break the law. But if one were so inclined, operating a 'stealth' machine would avoid the cost to the school. However, I am a huge believer in going to the safety courses, you cannot put a price tag on all you get from one. So regardless of the displacement size, I do suggest that you take the course when it is feasible for the budget. Good hunting! and again, welcome to the pound.  |
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Post by jtl on Jul 26, 2008 12:59:08 GMT -5
Rerun and others thanks for the input.
I totally agree about the safety classes. I was all for taking the inexpensive online course, kind of a rules of the road thing for $20, but now they are making a big deal of this because the local license offices no longer want to do the "road test". Safety is a HUGE issue for me. Having said that how I could I disguise a 150cc to look like a 50cc? A local dealer told me not to worry because it was not likely I was going to get stopped. I really don't want to chance that, my record is A++ and I want to keep it that way. I one were to get stopped and they ask for registration isn't that going to be a dead giveaway or how about the something on the engine?
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Post by rerun2 on Jul 26, 2008 13:54:56 GMT -5
You do not need to really disguise anything in most cases... some have a decal that says 150 on the bike, some folks just cut away the '1', leaving the 50 which would indicate a 50cc bike. Of course you can opt for taking the whole decal off too. I think most of the decals on these things are ugly anyway! ;d
Yeah, a lot of cops don't know the actual laws, or even care as long as you are not reckless and dangerous, but getting gigged for no registration, no tag, no inspection, and no valid operators ticket can be pretty dang costly... so I would not 'hope' that a 150 sign on my ride would just be ignored, just to easy to remove it!
Not all 50cc scooters are the wee little tiny ones... mine (prior to its running away from home) was the same dimensions as the 150cc bikes (most Chicom scooters are the same thing under the plastic), parts are pretty much universal... 50cc engines are invariably what is known as the QMB139 design (Honda of the 1960's), the 150cc engines are GY6 designs (again Honda '60s vintage design)
I don't know how folks can actually ride some of the 50cc bikes, I am a little guy and those small one cramp even me!
Good luck, and happy motoring! (showing my age with that one) ;d
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Post by kaintuckdave on Jul 26, 2008 15:06:08 GMT -5
Well, I got pulled over by a cop the other day and he was really adamant about making sure my scoot was under 50cc. I finally found a little spec sticker under my seat. He asked me about every question in the world and had me call the county attorney to sort the legality. Attorney said she was gonna send out a memo to all cops about under 50cc scoots. In the end, I think the cop just wanted to check my scoot out. He asked how much I paid and where I got it and what's that got to do with legality? Ha ha. ;D
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Post by jtl on Jul 26, 2008 15:36:23 GMT -5
Kaintuckdave,
That is exactly what I am concerned about. You get pulled over for whatever reason and then you need to prove you are legal. Maybe we need to mfgr some stickers that say 50cc and paste them on the body somewhere for the "stealth" scoots. It is so temping to go with the larger motor. Even a local dealer was trying to encourage me to not worry about it. He said what are the odds of getting stopped because I really didn't fit the profile (age I guess). I just wish the safety class wasn't so cost prohibitive just to occasionally use a scooter. Where I live we have a high ratio of cops to citizens and it is a very small town (Venice, FL). Geez, I just signed up the other day and I am already negative bones, whatever that means.
John
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Post by troj4nm4n on Jul 26, 2008 16:32:27 GMT -5
cant they look at the code above the exhaust ? mine says ....50... a friends says 150 of course with the other #s
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Post by rerun2 on Jul 27, 2008 1:47:02 GMT -5
That metal tag in the under seat box is what the cops want to see if you do get stopped. It would be an easy task to change the tag from one taken from a wrecked 50cc. I really believe that a cops curiosity about what you are riding is the biggest risk factor in getting stopped, seems that was the only reason he had to stop Kaintuck, man I would hate that, no 'probable cause' I just don't know the laws I am hired to enforce.... shhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz
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Post by 90GTVert on Jul 27, 2008 11:07:03 GMT -5
But be aware that once anything is done to make the machine above the 50cc threshold, it is then the same under the law as a 150cc. I'm not sure how true that is. I put a 70cc kit on my 2 stroke 50. I wanted to use it to take the skills test for a motorcycle license, so they said I needed it tagged. They refused to let me tag my 50cc scoot, so I told them it's a 70cc now and just as fast as the 150s that can be tagged. They said it didn't matter, it started as a 50 and that's all that matters. If I was ever pulled over on mine I would never tell them it's a 70cc. The ID tag is all they need, and even if they suspected it to be 70cc they couldn't prove it on the side of the road. They would need to verify bore and stroke (pull the engine apart) to know for sure that it is a 70cc. It's not like my cylinder has 70 engraved on it or anything like that. This was in Maryland, btw. |
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Post by jtl on Jul 27, 2008 13:00:43 GMT -5
What are the opinions on a TGB 50cc two stroke? What would be a good price for a used, one owner with 4,000 miles? I should have mentioned it is a 2006 Key West model.
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Post by jtl on Jul 27, 2008 15:48:00 GMT -5
If not the TGB how about the Daelim or the Baccio? Want a reasonably priced 2 stroke to mode down the road. I guess my main concern is finding the parts.
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Post by rerun2 on Jul 28, 2008 0:26:07 GMT -5
jtl, the three scooters you mention all have very limited discussion on this forum. The Daelim has the most that I know of, their scooters seem to be of quite good quality, definitely a generally better product line than those coming out of China. There is some discussion that they may not have any representation in the US, when or if I really don't know... but it would be a good thing to know if parts are a concern, and sooner or later they will be a requirement on any vehicle. The ones owned by members and posted about are very positive.
TGB is not a bad line of scooters, again considerably higher quality than the Chinese stuff. They have been around a fairly long while, and do not lack for dealerships, and parts support, at least that is not been an issue I have seen mentioned.
Baccio is a complete unknown, don't think I have ever seen anything at all about them.
A good idea might be to use the search feature, type in the word Baccio in the search topic space, go down and set the 'days to search' to something like 350 and then the number of posts to 100 or as many as you care to read... hit search and you will be given each post that has the term mentioned in it. The same can be done with TGB, but you must have 4 characters so maybe TGB scooters might get stuff up... and Daelim for data on those.
Good luck, holler if we can assist, we can always try!! ;d
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Post by jtl on Jul 28, 2008 11:15:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the help. I have decided to skip the Baccio and concentrate on the Daelim Cordi and the TGB Keywest. From what I have been able to determine they are both good scoots. The Daelim would be new and the TGB is used with 3800 miles. I am concerned about buying used although the seller appears to have taken exceptional care it. I kind of wonder if that is a lot of miles (2006) and what is the most likely thing to go wrong. If I had to rebuild the entire engine would that be expensive and could I do it myself (I am handy with cars) but maybe there are specialized tools that I don't have. I think I would be able to purchase the TGB for under a grand (new they are $1750) and a new Daelim is about $1550. I planned to do some modifications at some point and may even put on a larger cylinder kit. Your comments are really appreciated.
John
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Post by jtl on Jul 31, 2008 10:49:18 GMT -5
Well it looks like I am going to get a 2006 TGB 50cc manufactured in Taiwan. TGB which stands for Taiwan Golden Bee (long story behind that name) has been supplying parts to Vespa, Piaggio, SYM and Peugeot since 1978. This has a Morini engine and a Mikuni 13mm carb. The service manual claims 5.0ps @7500 which if true is about 4.9hp. I am buying it for about 1/2 of msrp and it has 3800 miles and all scheduled service has been performed. If well maintained how long do 2 stroke engines usually last before need major repairs which I assume is a new cylinder, piston and rings. Also how long can I expect the tires to last, I heard maybe only 4000 miles for the rear. It doesn't appear to be an easy DYI job when they are tubeless. Thanks for your previous comments and suggestions.
John
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Post by 90GTVert on Jul 31, 2008 12:37:29 GMT -5
Not sure exactly how long a 2 stroke will last. Mine's 4000+ miles on a 70cc big bore with no engine issues. Even if the engine does wear out, you can pop a 70cc cylinder kit complete with gaskets, piston, and rings on for a shade over $100 and make more power than before... not exactly a terrible thing. The carb may hold you back if you plan to mod, unless it is replaced. Some have a 17.5mm carb stock, and you can throw a 70cc kit on still using your stock carb with good results that way.
My tires don't last long. I ride my 50 on the shoulder a lot around here and I get so many flats the tires have no chance to wear. In the last 4000 miles I have had 1 Sheng Wei (something like that) front tire, 1 Michelin Bopper front tire, 1 Sheng Wei rear tire, 1 Kenda rear tire, 2 Michelin Bopper rear tires, and I think 3-4 plugs/patches. If you can avoid debris, you should get at least 5000 miles from a good tire, hopefully more.
Good luck with it, I have heard plenty of positive opinions on TGB scoots.
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Post by jtl on Jul 31, 2008 13:37:03 GMT -5
What would be a reasonable figure to replace the tires w/ labor? I guess I need to offer some information to get some Dawg Bones. Maybe if I get this scooter that will happen. I have been on a VW car site for years and initially I was reluctant to do anything to my car, now I am actually giving advice.
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Post by 90GTVert on Jul 31, 2008 14:38:53 GMT -5
The local scoot shop charges $10-15 depending on who I get per tire.
I wouldn't worry about the bones. We get a theif around now and then stealing them anyway. I try to be helpful but no one ever thinks so according to the bone system lol.
Here's a bone to get your pile started anyway.
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Post by gusset on Aug 2, 2008 0:56:27 GMT -5
I totally agree about the safety classes. I was all for taking the inexpensive online course, kind of a rules of the road thing for $20, but now they are making a big deal of this because the local license offices no longer want to do the "road test". Safety is a HUGE issue for me. Having said that how I could I disguise a 150cc to look like a 50cc? A local dealer told me not to worry because it was not likely I was going to get stopped. I guess it's time for me to say something to lose a few bones, but jtl, I think you're going about it wrong. If you're not willing or able to spend the $$$ to learn how to keep yourself in one piece once you hit the road, then perhaps you should wait a bit until you can. On a small scooter, you're harder to see than any other vehicle on the road, 2 wheels or 4, hence even more vulnerable. Knowing how to handle the bike, and how to ride defensively, is something that should not be put on a shelf, and there's an awful lot of it that isn't intuitive or natural. The issue is about learning the things that you don't know you don't know. Pretty sad what the dealer told you; I guess it's more important to get the sale than to provide decent advice. Personally, I wish all states had a law similar to yours. It's needed now more than ever, what with gas prices driving folks to get scooters because "they're so easy to ride, there's nothing to it". Sorry if I sound harsh, but I hate to see dawgs hit the road without taking the time to learn how to keep themselves safe. |
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Post by jtl on Aug 2, 2008 8:00:59 GMT -5
Gusset,
I won't be taking your bones for giving an opinion, especially one regarding safety. I purchased a 50cc scooter to test the waters, if I like scootering than I will move up in size and take the mandatory class. For now I intend to be defensive on my scooter just as I am while driving. Unfortunately accidents can happen regardless of how safe we try to be. Florida doesn't require a helmet, but that doesn't mean I won't be wearing one. The change in the law which essentially got the local drivers license offices off the hook for give the physical drivers exam is going to force a lot of people to skip the test because of the two day time commitment and $250 fee. My guess is many of the dealers are encouraging people to get the bigger cc scoots and telling them not to worry about the law. This is wrong but I bet it goes on all of the time. Anyway I appreciate your concern.
John
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Post by jayhawk on Aug 2, 2008 10:27:54 GMT -5
FWIW - I have an ADLY/Lambretta Due 50 (rebadged ADLY panther). It's a 49cc 2 stroke and it easily hits 40 mph plus (it is derestricted). I'm still in the break in phase, so I haven't tried to go any faster, but for local traffic all the roads I travel on are 35 mph max so life's good. ADLY is another Taiwanese company who makes OEM parts for other companeis like Bombadier and Arctic Cat. Just another option, and since they're newer to the US market they're priced cheaper.
Eric
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