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Post by termite on Jul 21, 2008 22:52:21 GMT -5
Over at another forum, I posted the response below about license and bike size questions for new riders. I think it would dramatically reduce accidents by teenage motorcyclists/scooterists.
I wish the state DMVs(NOT the feds) would institute a graduated motorcycle/scooter license system based on driver age and bike engine displacement/horsepower.
Such as the following:
Age 15: MSF basic course required, parental approval required, engine displacement limit of 150cc/15 bhp. No riding on freeways/limited access roads, or other roads posted greater than 60mph. Limited to within 25 miles of home of record, unless riding with an accompaning adult on another bike.
Ages 16 and 17: MSF basic course required, parental approval required, displacement limit of 300cc/30 bhp.
Ages 18 to 21: MSF basic course required. No other restrictions.
Age 21 and above: MSF basic course not required, but must demonstrate basic competence in lieu of certificate. No other restrictions.
I think that if the above were instituted, insurance rates would go down, and so would accidents.
Just my $.02 worth.
What say you, scootdawgs? Agree or disagree? Please comment.
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Post by jb on Jul 21, 2008 23:05:15 GMT -5
I disagree. Not on the graduated licensing but on the use of age in doing it. Some other countries have graduated licensing and it's based on how long you've had your license. This makes more sense to me. A guy goes and gets his M license. Congrats go find yourself a 250cc or lower, not some insane 1300cc monster you can use to kill yourself and possibly others around you. After having a license for a couple years it could move up to like 600cc, etc. Basically with age based licensing you don't change anything. I just got my license last month. I'm far from an experienced rider and, yes I'll say it, at this point I'm probably a bit unsafe due to lack of experience. Guess what, I'm 27. With the age plan, nothing has changed for me. I can go right out and get a ridiculously fast bike and the first throttle slip is likely to take out myself and a couple minivans with families in em.
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Post by "Big Guy" on Jul 21, 2008 23:10:25 GMT -5
I have always believed that children should not be allowed to drink, vote, or ride a motorcycle until they are of responsible age - 21 in my opinion and based on my experiences riding since 13 (14 legally). The M/C accident rate among children under 21 is disproportionate as compared to the industry as a whole.
On the other hand, I am also against excessive government regulations for anything and weighing one against the other, I would ultimately have to choose against any new regulations.
It is not the government's duty to protect us from ourselves... it never works as intended. Responsible parents will raise responsible children, and in a perfect world, the family units will protect our children.
-Rich
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Post by mortar235 on Jul 22, 2008 1:09:05 GMT -5
I like the idea of it being based on experience rather than age. I got my class M license using my 150cc scoot and even I thought it was rediculous that i was then qualified to drive ANY size motorcycle even though i don't know how to shift or handle a heavy bike lol.
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Post by termite on Jul 22, 2008 2:20:22 GMT -5
Rich,
Calling 18, 19, and 20 yr olds "children" is a bit of a misnomer. Except for purchasing alcohol and handguns, they aren't.
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Post by termite on Jul 22, 2008 2:45:38 GMT -5
I'm far from an experienced rider and, yes I'll say it, at this point I'm probably a bit unsafe due to lack of experience. Guess what, I'm 27. With the age plan, nothing has changed for me. I can go right out and get a ridiculously fast bike and the first throttle slip is likely to take out myself and a couple of minivans with families in em. Based on that statement, I'll agree with your assessment of yourself. But you will not "take out a couple of minivans" with the first throttle slip. You MIGHT take out one. If you go ride a super-bike a bit, you will know that. Yes, hit a deep pothole and accidentally twist the throttle to the stop on a ZX-10 Ninja in second gear, and you may find yourself bouncing down the road on your a$$ wondering what just happened. The point I am trying to make is that we treat minors differently from adults. In America, we have the right to go and do really stupid stuff as adults, as long as the only person we endanger is ourselves. I know that there are certain rules concerning this, but we really CAN'T save stupid adults from themselves in the end. And if you believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution, eliminating the very stupid from the gene pool isn't really a bad thing. Much of Europe has a graduated license system concerning minors. What I posted was not a mirror image of Europe's system, but similar, yet allows adults the freedom to become motorcycle organ donors if they wish. We could carry your scenario over to cars, and say that a 30 yr old man who drove Honda Accords from 16 till 29, can't buy and drive a Lamborghini Diablo(assuming he could afford the thing). Where do we draw the line? Good luck getting your system in place. Expect tremendous resistance, especially in the southern and western states. What I am suggesting is that we start with minors. In Louisiana(and many other non-nanny states), once a 16 yr old has a motorcycle endorsement on their license, they can jump on a GSXR-750 and see how fast it will go(nearly 170, BTW). This is a bit foolish, IMHO. My proposal would help eliminate this in minors(unless they ignore the laws). As for adults, they're on their own. That's why we call them adults. EDIT: In case you haven't noticed, I have somewhat of a libertarian streak in my political views.
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Post by sonnybadbutt on Jul 22, 2008 8:00:52 GMT -5
Rich, Calling 18, 19, and 20 yr olds "children" is a bit of a misnomer. Except for purchasing alcohol and handguns, they aren't. Have to disagree people these ages ares still kids. I remember when I was that age wasn't near as smart or mature as I thought I was. They may not be children in the sense of size but still kids in many ways.
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Post by jb on Jul 22, 2008 8:04:57 GMT -5
Your analogy is a bit off. Assuming the info given your 30 year old has 13 years driving experience. That's plenty of wheel time to handle a Diablo. It's not the 16 year olds I worry about. Here in Texas we already have tiered licensing for minors. For someone under 18 to get an class M, they have to do several hours of Driving Safety classes, plus the MSF, and the written at the DMV. If they do all that, they can get a 250cc or under. For most this is more pain than it's worth and they don't bother. No I worry more about my buddy who went to the MSF at the same time I did. He's 30, has less than a month of riding experience, a drinking problem, and while I bought my little Hensim to learn on, he bought an 1100cc BMW sport tourer. I fully expect both of us to drop our bikes at some point while learning. For me that will probably be at 40MPH or less on a side street. For him, it's likely to be at 160MPH in the middle of the freeway.
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Post by gottascoot on Jul 22, 2008 10:37:25 GMT -5
wish age had alot to do with it,however I have a guy that lives across the street from me,told me over and over how many times he fell on a bike when he was a little kid and how he would not ride one . well the next thing I see he trades his boat for a 1100 yamaha,in his 50`s going thru his second childhood.no fool like an old fool.I`m seeing alot of guys that couldn`t afford a motorcycle when they were young getting on one for the first time in thier 50`s&60`s,hope they understand the traffic is faster and thier reactions may be slower(I`m pushing 60yrs ) so I can say that without getting in trouble with the old guys.scoot SAFE !!
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Post by WarrenS on Jul 22, 2008 12:55:50 GMT -5
I think the young 'uns should not be allowed to drive a 4 wheeled vehicle. They can hurt more people with those things than with a scooter. ;D
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Post by gottascoot on Jul 22, 2008 14:11:58 GMT -5
the problem we are having here in n.e. Ga. is the guys on the sport bikes think they are playing a video game(150mph on mtn. roads)however there is no reset switch and its not the same as playing a video game down at the game-room,you cant just put a token in and start over.---they think its fun on the xbox it must be more fun for real--they need to understand life is NOT a video game !
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Post by scootennewbie on Jul 22, 2008 14:41:01 GMT -5
I think if we start regulating who can do what and when, people need to pass both a physical exam, as well as mental (Not sure how the exam should work, not my line of expertise being I consider myself crazy). At the age of sixteen I had my solo's license and was flying Cessna 150's. My daughter on the other hand, at the age of 16 when all teens want to drive, she is scared to death of it. Of course it doesn't help, me being the great role model I am, and having a bumper sticker on the truck that says "Drive it like you stole it" Granted youth is a variable that should be considered, I don't think it should be the only consideration.
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Post by phaze on Jul 22, 2008 16:18:41 GMT -5
no thanks on the regulations. all my girls have been on motorsports at 4 yrs of age, my girls are very good drivers. the oldest takes after dad to much but thats what lawyers are for lol.
i think the problem is the city kids that have never seen something like this and dont respect it.
the younger they are the better as they will learn faster and youll have something to take away when they screw up. i know my daughter would be devastated if i take her freedom away. thats her scoots name i guess. besides shes my evening ridin partner.
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Post by jb on Jul 23, 2008 14:36:19 GMT -5
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Post by termite on Jul 23, 2008 22:48:58 GMT -5
Two thoughts:
#1. Do we know his riding experience level?
#2. He was 28 yrs old, an adult by ANY age standard. Lane splitting for motorcycles is legal only in California, and only when traffic is stopped. He was riding in an incredibly foolish manner. He paid the ultimate price for his foolish behavior. Darwin won.
As Glenn Beck says, "It sucks to be him". Personnally, I'm not going to try to save all stupid 28 yr olds from themselves.
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Post by Aerostudent on Jul 25, 2008 0:37:02 GMT -5
Lane splitting is legal in CA, and I don't think that traffic has to be stopped either. What I was told (by CHP officer) was that it is legal and you have right of way up to 10mph above the flow of traffic, but that if you are going more than 10mph faster than the flow of traffic, it is still legal, but you give up your right of way, and any accident resulting will be your fault.
That is what I understand, though I haven't checked the DMV officially, though I think I will right now. ;D
Aero
BTW, I like the M class for minors thing, but I don't think a tiered system like this would work, plus, how many more people are you going to try to save from themselves. If we undid all safety laws regarding self-protection (seatbelts, helmets, etc) we may just have the solution to the world population problem ;D Dark? Yes. True? You bet.
But, if you insist on trying to "save" everyone, how about this? For the first year after getting your license, no bike over 500cc, period, end of story, no matter what the age.
Aero *goes to check DMV.*
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Post by phaze on Jul 26, 2008 10:33:03 GMT -5
i agree with aero, with the max size, but in auto test they must, train them more on motorcycle laws and safety if they were to emphasize more on that then other non essential info it would help dearly.
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Post by gfrphoto on Jul 28, 2008 16:39:32 GMT -5
My MSF instructor was telling us how important it is to know your bike and its capabilities. Something around 50-60% of accidents are occuring within the first 6 months of getting on a bike - and this is not the FIRST time riders. This includes people who buy a new bike. It can be as extreme as going from a 50cc scooter to stepping up into a 1300cc super bike and assuming things will be the same. But likewise this could be said for any bike change. Going from a sport bike to a harley cruiser will have its differences.
This being said. A tiered license system based on experience gaining you more engine cc driving ability is only giving you another 6 months of learning each time you have to upgrade to get you the bike you want. Rather than tiered learning based on time perhaps a class. Class A, 250cc and lower, Class B 450cc and lower, Class C-F, etc F could be 1000-1600cc bikes. Whatever - like wise with CDL licenses and all. Sure you got your driver's license when you were 16, but this doesn't make you capable.
Now this doesn't mean you have to take Classes A-through-F you can go and take Class A which say is 250cc and less coupled with basic rider's course. Then you can go up to F. But for someone who only wants a scooter or small bike, this would be all they need. You basically need to take the class per bike you wish to own. If you are out eyeballing some Harley 650cc bikes take the respective class for that... With Florida becoming mandatory with the MSF Basic Rider's Course - I'd imagine more places will be offering the class. The Harley store in town offers the class - and so if you were going to buying a certain bike - and you didn't already have the license for that class - you could take it there before purchase.
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Post by jb on Jul 28, 2008 22:17:47 GMT -5
I hate being pedantic, but I can't help myself sometimes. There isn't a Harley 650cc. The lowest displacement Harley these days is 883cc's, conveniently named the Harley Davidson 883. Unfortunately America and Japan have all but given up on the low displacement market.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2008 23:01:29 GMT -5
... Unfortunately America and Japan have all but given up on the low displacement market. They've given up in the U.S. market. There are tons of low/medium displacement Japanese bikes available elsewhere in the world.
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Post by gfrphoto on Jul 29, 2008 9:47:51 GMT -5
I hate being pedantic, but I can't help myself sometimes. There isn't a Harley 650cc. The lowest displacement Harley these days is 883cc's, conveniently named the Harley Davidson 883. Unfortunately America and Japan have all but given up on the low displacement market. You can be whatever you want, but I own a 150cc scooter for a reason. I don't do the Motorcycle thing. Sorry for crossing any eyes, minds, or whatever about mislabeling an HD displacement level.
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Post by phaze on Aug 2, 2008 6:55:56 GMT -5
gr photo you might want to tell your scoot, that it isnt really a m/c cause i think it is lol.
when i was 17 some one said your not an adult yet but several of my friends are in army riskin theyre lives yet they cant smoke vote drink i say let the adults fight well see how bad our country is then. this is just my opinion.
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Post by harrywr2 on Aug 2, 2008 9:59:49 GMT -5
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Post by danw on Aug 2, 2008 10:40:42 GMT -5
That document says 3 really important things: 1) In 2005, 41% of the single vehicle crashes involving motorcycles had a blood alcohol level .08 or higher. 2) 45% of those killed did NOT wear a helmet. (Evidently good judgment under the influence) 3) 1 out of 4 had invalid licenses at the time of the crash. Soooo, it would seem to me, If I avoid driving under the influence, always wear my helmet and only ride with hot passengers, (oh I'm sorry, got the last one wrong), and dont ride with an invalid license, I can reduce my chances of dying on a motorcycle quite a bit.
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Post by WarrenS on Aug 2, 2008 14:41:39 GMT -5
If 45% did not wear a helmet that means 55% did wear a helmet. ???That's the trouble with relying on statistics.
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Post by snappo on Sept 5, 2008 5:59:34 GMT -5
Over at another forum, I posted the response below about license and bike size questions for new riders. I think it would dramatically reduce accidents by teenage motorcyclists/scooterists. I wish the state DMVs(NOT the feds) would institute a graduated motorcycle/scooter license system based on driver age and bike engine displacement/horsepower.
Such as the following:
Age 15: MSF basic course required, parental approval required, engine displacement limit of 150cc/15 bhp. No riding on freeways/limited access roads, or other roads posted greater than 60mph. Limited to within 25 miles of home of record, unless riding with an accompaning adult on another bike.
Ages 16 and 17: MSF basic course required, parental approval required, displacement limit of 300cc/30 bhp.
Ages 18 to 21: MSF basic course required. No other restrictions.
Age 21 and above: MSF basic course not required, but must demonstrate basic competence in lieu of certificate. No other restrictions.
I think that if the above were instituted, insurance rates would go down, and so would accidents.
Just my $.02 worth.What say you, scootdawgs? Agree or disagree? Please comment. Seventeen or twenty one, accidendents don't discrimate.
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Post by katbowls2 on Sept 5, 2008 12:25:11 GMT -5
Tiered motorcycle licenses based on experience is good. My friend (who the state said was qualified to be my babysitter because he went to MSF school & was licensed for 3 months) was just killed 2 minutes after we split up to go to our homes, due to a STUPID mistake he made. I was on my scooter, he had just bought a Harley 650 sportster, we had just finished an 80 mile ride. A piece of chrome loosened up on his bike, he leaned over & back to "pop" it back on, lost control & slammed into a pole, he died enroute to hospital. His 15 yo grandson was on back and got road rash & bumps/bruises. (he shouldn't have been there to begin with, but that's a whole different issue.) My friend was a state certified legal driver...no experience, but licensed to become road kill. Ive been riding motorcycles for 40 years & he was my babysitter until I got my license. Makes sense to me. NOT!!!
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Post by katbowls2 on Sept 5, 2008 12:34:19 GMT -5
Sorry guys, Jeff's Harley was an 833...He wanted a 650 but they don't make anything smaller than an 833. He admitted it was too big & powerful for him...but continued riding on it anyway, his words - I took the Safety Course, so I will be okay. Jeff was not a kid - if he had started on a smaller bike & gotten more than 3 months of experience, maybe he would still be here.
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Post by pukame2 on Sept 5, 2008 19:52:11 GMT -5
Having a tiered system is nice but not feasible in Hawaii.
At the present time, there is only 1 MSF offered in the whole State of Hawaii on Oahu. There's talk about adding 1 on Maui, but it's just that for the last 2 yrs.
At 16, you're required getting an automobile license, Class 3 first, after which, a Class 2 for gas-powered motorcycle over 2hp. Highschool-aged persons must take Drivers' Ed before getting a driver's license.
Would be nice to have an MSF course with an advanced version as a sort of refresher for older folk. Just wishful thinking.........
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Post by deaconblues on Sept 6, 2008 5:06:51 GMT -5
I think I'm for the tiered license concept based on experience. Granted, it's not the government's job to protect us from ourselves, and usually it ticks me off royally when legislation is passed that does so. But things like calorie content in restaurant foods really only affect me, and if I want to have an 8-pajillion calorie burger at Red Robin, I should have that choice. It could be argued that if I have a heart attack from eating too many of them and insurance covers it that raises the cost of insurance overall and thus affects everyone, granted. But something like that affects other people mostly indirectly. On the other hand, if I'm driving a cage and a drunken crotch rocketeer or Harley poser with 2 months riding experience winds up in my lane and thus my windshield, that affects me a heck of a lot more. It could mean medical bills for my family and I, it could possibly mean we're going to need counseling after experiencing something like that, and we're sure going to need a new windshield. And if I'm on my scooter, I ABSOLUTELY don't want this guy anywhere near me.
My rights end where the rights of others begin. It could be argued that I have the right to infuse my own lungs with tar and nicotine, or blow my own fingers off with a firecracker, or pierce and/or tattoo God only knows which of my own appendages (yes, that actually has been a bone of contention in my state). It could also be argued that along with all of those things, I have the right to drive in a place where I know that I'm not likely to encounter some joker hopped up with alcohol, testosterone and his own sense of immortality. I have a right to make it to my destination with reasonable assurance that I'm not going to have to deal with the aftereffects of someone else's idiocy somewhere between Point A and Point B, and possibly long after. And I do NOT - and should not - have the right to impose myself on others sharing the roads with me in this fashion.
It's not just that inexperienced riders on powerful machines present a threat to themselves. It's that they also present a very real and direct danger to others. Drunk driving laws were written and passed based on this exact principle, and I'm glad we've got them. I realize that drunk driving still happens, but at least something can be done about it when it does occur.
Being inexperienced myself, when I ride I am extremely conscious not only of the threat posed to me by others, but of the possible threat posed to others by me. I do everything within my ability to minimize both. If everyone simply rode and/or drove within the scope of their own experience and ability, the roads would be far safer and all of these statistics would go way, way down.
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