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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 24, 2012 17:45:59 GMT -5
Today I was out riding and I kept hearing a noise I hadn't heard before. It got worse and worse, so I slowed down to about 10-15mph and made it home. The noise sounded like it was coming from underneath me, like maybe an loose exhaust. But the noise then started to grind and "chirp" just like a small bird! When I was home, I looked around, nothing weird out of place, but I noticed the entire rear rim was pretty hot. When I spun the rim, it sounded like a scraping noise. When I spun my front tire there was NO noise. So I thought maybe it was a rear wheel bearing race or something. But I removed the rear wheel and did not see anything that looks like wheel bearings, or races. I see a spindle (rear axle?) with splines that match the splines inside the wheel's rim. I also see a small tubular metal piece about 1" that slides on AFTER the wheel is fitted into the splines. This tubular piece is NOT snug on the spindle; there is some play. I see very light scoring on end of the spindle. Is this all right to have play or should it be snug? What is that one inch piece called?
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Post by leepotter on Mar 24, 2012 17:50:16 GMT -5
I'd drain the gear oil and look for metal pieces just to be on the safe side.
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Post by mainepeace on Mar 24, 2012 17:51:37 GMT -5
It's a spacer. It sounds like something in the rear drum brake assembly. If the axle were loose it would possibly create the sound.
Greg
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 24, 2012 18:11:08 GMT -5
Greg, the drum brakes are intact and plenty of shoe on them. The axle is tight. So are you saying it's all right for the spacer to have play? I guess the spacer's role is to take up slack between the swingarm(?) and the rim? So REALLY, THERE ARE NO WHEEL BEARINGS? !!! That's WIERD!!! The next easy step is to go ahead and take a look at the gear oil. I'm worried...
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Post by timber on Mar 24, 2012 18:16:20 GMT -5
I don't think there are wheel bearing s there per sei, not in the usual sense as car wheel have in them. I took off my rear wheel to replace the tire, that splined shaft was all I remember it sliped over and meshed with, the bearings would be inside the gear case itself on the other side of that spindle/shaft.
I might assume there IS no oil left to drain out.
Why people KEEP RUNNING a machine that's obviously making abnormal noises is beyond me, especially one that you can get off and simply push unlike a tractor-trailer rig or dozer, but that grinding and chirping sound, especially the chirping tells me there's been no OIL on the bearings and they are gone. By continuing to drive it like that you may very well have turned a $10 repair into one requiring substantial replacements of several parts now. The grinding noise and the hot rim are definitely not good, it tells me that when you open it up you are going to find bits and pieces of bearings and worse, and that they have been working their way around in there damaging other parts that were not previously damaged but are now because you kept driving it this way, it's not a good deal.
You DO have gear oil in there... YES?
if you didn't add or check the gear oil level periodically, it could very well be "bone dry" in there and that's the source of the problem.
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 24, 2012 18:29:57 GMT -5
Yes sir, Olf, I maintain my scoot regularly, including gear oil. Every time I change the engine oil, I change the gear oil too. And now I see where the wheel bearing races are located, Greg. They are in the triangular-shaped swingarm I removed earlier. They can easily be removed with a snap-ring tool. I'm going to take the race(s) out and see if they are in bad shape.
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Post by timber on Mar 24, 2012 18:33:49 GMT -5
Yes sir, Olf, I maintain my scoot regularly, including gear oil. Every time I change the engine oil, I change the gear oil too. Good! then maybe one of the bearings just came apart or has gone bad, it happens Many years ago- 1979 when I was just about 19, I worked in a large commercial building doing minor maintenance, and night security, the superintendant, a guy around 70 was an idiot, he was the superintendant for maybe 20 years, he NEVER checked the oil in any of the machines in the boiler room! When the air compressor for the power flush toilet tanks seized up I decided to go look and see if it was something I could fix for them, I checked the oil, well... I TRIED to anyway, the crankcase was bone dry! When I asked him about it, amazingly he said he had NO idea there was oil in there... there WAS oil in there at one time, maybe 20 years prior, but it long before failure had leaked out or evaporated out. I learned then that none of the compressors, machines, pumps, electric motors or anything mechanical that he had control over as the building superintendant that took oil or grease, had ever BEEN oiled or greased during his 20 or so year watch. Most of them began failing one by one during the 4-5 years I lived and worked there because the guy whose job it was to check and maintain these machines had no idea he was supposed to put oil in the reciprocating pison machines like compressors, even though they had an obvious dipstick on the crankcase.
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 24, 2012 19:07:04 GMT -5
Oh, wow, sounds like he was a numbskull! That is some basic stuff there, Olf. So yeah, I just drained my gear oil into a pan and it's a nice brownish color, no metal flakes. I STILL can't pinpoint the issue yet. I TRIED to look at the bearings in the swingarm by removing the snap-ring, but they didn't seem to want to pull/push out. So I just slopped 'em up w/WB grease. So, I'm kinda stuck. I'm gonna put things back together and see if I can re-create the sound. Oh, and by the way, I'm a lady, but I still know quite a bit of stuff about engines.
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Post by leepotter on Mar 24, 2012 19:10:32 GMT -5
Will it make the noise on the center stand spinning the back wheel by hand?
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 24, 2012 19:49:33 GMT -5
Yes, it does Lee, kind of a scraping noise. It made the noise BEFORE I took it apart, and it's making the same noise AFTER getting it together. I'm at a standstill however, because I have a 15/16" socket, but it's not deep enough to screw the axle nut in all the way. From what the manual said, I'm going to have to torque it pretty good too. I'm going to have to run to the store tomorrow and find a 15/16" deep socket or its metric equivalent.
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Post by leepotter on Mar 24, 2012 19:56:52 GMT -5
Anyway you can take video of it? Then we might be able to narrow it down.
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Post by timber on Mar 24, 2012 20:14:08 GMT -5
Oh, wow, sounds like he was a numbskull! That is some basic stuff there, \\-olf. So yeah, I just drained my gear oil into a pan and it's a nice brownish color, no metal flakes. I STILL can't pinpoint the issue yet. Yeah he sure was! crooked too, on the "take", both he and the rental agent in a variety of ways. The color won't say much in the gear case, it should look the color it was when you put it in, there's no combustion to darken it as there is in the engine. You won't necessarily see metal when draining it, larger pieces of a bearing that came apart wont simply float out the drain. They probably have to be pulled or tapped out from the other side, I don't know for sure, but they may be what's called an interferance fit
- they don't just slide in and out, they are made to be a couple thousandths of an inch or thereabouts larger than the case hole, so that they are pressed in with some force and it's a good tight fit to keep the outer raceway of the bearing from ALSO spinning around when the axle inside it turns. Ball bearings have 2-4 basic parts plus the balls- the inner and outer raceway, anda corrugated looking retainer that keeps the balls spaced apart evenly and helps guide them. And in most bearings there is a plastic dust seal on each side once the grease is packed in. But these bearings I think get engine or gear oil, so there's no dust seals if they are the open type. These bearings you want to have the outer raceway completely stationary, while the inside raceway freely turns on the balls. To get it out you may need to tap it out with a small mallet and a wooden dowel, or a puller. I'm sure someone else here can answer that specifically. Oh cool, lets see what someone says about HOW to get the bearing out for this scooter, because I have not removed mine before and can only go by the usual scenario to explain it here. " because I have a 15/16" socket, but it's not deep enough to screw the axle nut in all the way. From what the manual said, I'm going to have to torque it pretty good too. I'm going to have to run to the store tomorrow and find a 15/16" deep socket or its metric equivalent." Oh don't ever use american sockets and wrenches on these metric bolts, they may seem like they sort of fit, and maybe fit a little loose and seem like some may work on certain sizes, but that axle nut has to be torqued pretty good and if you don't use the correct size- once you start applying torque it'll strip the head and the socket will come off. I had to go buy the size myself, a deep socket at Napa, I believe it was 21 mm if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by timber on Mar 24, 2012 20:28:13 GMT -5
Here's what I bought when I bought the scooter because I didn't have many metric tools. The 1/4" drive socket set is from Napa I really like, it was on the bottom shelf way in the back covered with dust, must be an older set there for a long time, it has 6 thru 12 mm normal AND deep sockets, 3/16th- 1/2" in normal AND deep, a long and a short extension, a wobble extension and the ratchet. I also bought a stubby phillips, feeler gage set, and yesterday a stanley box wrench set 6-12 mm which includes the 9 mm used to adjust the valves which I lacked. What you see here is what I consider to be the essentials for working on the scooter for maintenance. not shown is the 1/2" ratchet, the 5/8" deep socket for the spark plug, (Only American made part there is) , the 21 mm deep socket for the rear axle, or the adjustable wrench. With these you should be able to do almost everything.
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 24, 2012 20:34:10 GMT -5
Yes, Lee, I'll take a pic, a vid, but my brain is crazy from thought tonight! Olf, the deep socket I need is a 24mm. I only used the 15/16" in a pinch. I am going to resume this issue tomorrow and I will keep you posted. I really appreciate all the insight--I have learned SEVERAL things, and that's ALWAYS valuable! Thanks for everything--see you tomorrow!!!
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Post by timber on Mar 24, 2012 22:08:39 GMT -5
Ok, then your axle nut is slightly larger then @ 24mm, do get the correct socket for it, you can't go wrong Once you strip the nice corners off a bold head with the wrong tool, you pretty much never get it to work righteven when you use the right tool later due to rounding off of the sharp corners. Cheaper softer bolts take a wrong tool even worse. Ok , see you to-morrow then!
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Post by nulldevice on Mar 24, 2012 22:48:42 GMT -5
There should be two bearings in the triangular piece, and there are bearings within the gear box that support the axle as well.
Have you investigated the pieces and parts under the CVT cover? It could be the clutch needle bearing that squalls when you spin the tire.
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Post by leo on Mar 24, 2012 23:04:19 GMT -5
Greg, the drum brakes are intact and plenty of shoe on them. The axle is tight. So are you saying it's all right for the spacer to have play? I guess the spacer's role is to take up slack between the swingarm(?) and the rim? So REALLY, THERE ARE NO WHEEL BEARINGS? !!! That's WIERD!!! the bearing is in the swingarm plate on my bike. the spacers, there are 2 of them on my bike, perform 2 things. 1. they space the distance between the wheel, plate, and nut. 2. they enable the axle nut to be tightened without binding the bearing. grinding noises at slow speeds is a classic symptom of failing wheel bearings.
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Post by epicboy on Mar 24, 2012 23:10:27 GMT -5
china girl scooters are notorious for sub-standard bearings
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Post by leo on Mar 25, 2012 0:03:22 GMT -5
Here's what I bought when I bought the scooter because I didn't have many metric tools. The 1/4" drive socket set is from Napa I really like, it was on the bottom shelf way in the back covered with dust, must be an older set there for a long time, it has 6 thru 12 mm normal AND deep sockets, 3/16th- 1/2" in normal AND deep, a long and a short extension, a wobble extension and the ratchet. I also bought a stubby phillips, feeler gage set, and yesterday a stanley box wrench set 6-12 mm which includes the 9 mm used to adjust the valves which I lacked. What you see here is what I consider to be the essentials for working on the scooter for maintenance. not shown is the 1/2" ratchet, the 5/8" deep socket for the spark plug, (Only American made part there is) , the 21 mm deep socket for the rear axle, or the adjustable wrench. With these you should be able to do almost everything. the following tools will allow me to service any part of my bike. scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=200cc&action=display&thread=44594i have since added a throttle cable wrench that loosens the throttle cable at the carb. the crescent was a little too big. the wrench i added looked like it might have shipped with the scoot, just stamped out of a piece of sheet metal.
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Post by Blueboy5000 on Mar 25, 2012 4:56:37 GMT -5
Sounds like you ran out of gear oil. Drain and refill with gear oil.
China scooters are not notorious for cheap bearings. But they are notorious for poor quality lubricants. Every time a new bike joins my fleet, Chinese or not, it gets all it's grease and oil changed.
I don't give to craps if it's a lawn mower or an ocean liner, your machine is only as good as it's lubricants.
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Post by ootscoot on Mar 25, 2012 10:25:04 GMT -5
1st I would re-check the drum brake & housing - retracting ok? any sign of scoring? Then I would check those swing arm bearings - put your finger into the center hole and rotate - feel any grinding or rough movement? Next I would remove CVT cover and check clutch needle bearings. Good that you do the gear oil regularily - and since you saw no metal or gray color when draining, the problem is most likely not in the gearbox. Also, rotate the wheel - any rubbing any where on the body or swingarm?
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Post by timber on Mar 25, 2012 10:31:33 GMT -5
That's for sure, and you know they are using the absolute cheapest oil on the market to fill these at the factory, probably recycled used oil minimally filtered and "cleaned up" by some back alley chop shop for half price. As many gallons as they go through per 100 scooters and ATV's, a nickel saved per unit adds up.
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 25, 2012 10:35:50 GMT -5
Good morning everyone!! Well, I was able to buy a 24mm deep socket and put the axle nut back on, but BE AWARE, it is important to put the FLUSH side of the nut TOWARD you (I put it on away from me and I had a DEVIL of a time getting the nut back off)!! So, fired the scoot back up, revved up the RPMs and it is STILL chirping, occasionally. I read all the new posts and: blueboy--I had plenty of gear oil (near 5 oz.) leo and epicboy--I LOOKED at the wheel bearing in the swingarm plate, but didn't remove them because I was kinda scared :-) nulldevice--I know the CVT has to do with shifting gears, but that's all.
Gonna get out there with a video camera and take some shots.
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 25, 2012 11:53:20 GMT -5
I'm attempting to post video. You'll hear "chirping" at seconds :42, :46, :51, 1:05, and 1:55. Thanks. Dangit! I have the vid, but I can't paste it into this post!!!
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Post by timber on Mar 25, 2012 12:25:40 GMT -5
I'm attempting to post video. You'll hear "chirping" at seconds :42, :46, :51, 1:05, and 1:55. Thanks. Dangit! I have the vid, but I can't paste it into this post!!! Just post the url to it, you cant upload videos here. Photobucket and youtube allow free uplaods of videos
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Post by timber on Mar 25, 2012 12:30:37 GMT -5
Good morning everyone!! Well, I was able to buy a 24mm deep socket and put the axle nut back on, but BE AWARE, it is important to put the FLUSH side of the nut TOWARD you (I put it on away from me and I had a DEVIL of a time getting the nut back off)!! Flush side towards you? That doesn't sound right to me from your description if I'm reading it right. you want the flat side against the wheel hub and the slightly rounded side facing out like this, yours may differ a bit from mine but the idea is the same;
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 25, 2012 14:35:42 GMT -5
Yeah, Olf, but when I put it on with the flat side away from me, then my socket won't grab onto the sides of the nut!
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Post by Metal Pony on Mar 25, 2012 15:01:03 GMT -5
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Post by leepotter on Mar 25, 2012 16:26:02 GMT -5
have you looked at the clutch shoes? How many miles/km does the scooter have?
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Post by Globs on Mar 25, 2012 17:14:19 GMT -5
Yeah, Olf, but when I put it on with the flat side away from me, then my socket won't grab onto the sides of the nut! I don't understand - it should be fixed as Olf says in the picture. Anything else is just crazy and mechanically doomed. If you have the correct metric socket it will fit perfectly. BTW because your wheel was warm your drum brake must have been rubbing. So either your wheel/output shaft bearings are so shot that the drum is resting on the shoes, or there is a fault with the drum brake and it's being pulled on all the time.
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