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Post by gota150 on Jun 23, 2011 9:45:20 GMT -5
Great News! I finally got my Bike to start for the first time Last Night! The cam sprocket was about 2 teeth off, then I adjusted the valves again and she Ran. So exciting..
So Next up....
There is a Vacuum line from the tank that has a splitter, one goes to the carb and the other to the intake manifold. I believe.
With it in this configuration the bike wont start or run.
By plugging the Intake manifold hole, and only running vacuum line from the tank to the carb then it will start and run.
What is the correct vacuum sequence, Any ideas?
Thanks for all your Help guys!
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Post by sprocket on Jun 23, 2011 10:58:59 GMT -5
The minimum you need is a vacuum line to the petcock and a line to the de-accelertor valve on the side of the carb...
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Post by dyoung1167 on Jun 23, 2011 11:44:45 GMT -5
I think the cam is 180 deg out... the piston may be at TDC , don't know... At TDC on the piston with the cam sprocket like the picture (big hole up) ---- both valve should be UP --- NOT COMPRESSED. You should be able to wiggle the rocker arms The pick-up coil fires every 360 degrees... There is a mark on the flywheel that will get you on the right stroke, align it to the "T" which is fairly close to TDC and see what the cam sprocket reads... big hole should be UP or the cam is wrong... glad you got it running, but clear this up, you are right gota150. you can't be 180 degrees off as the flywheel/crankshaft turn 2 times for every turn of the valve gear and the coil fires every time the piston is tdc ( both compression and exhuast/intake stroke). the valves determine the compression stroke, not the flywheel. only if the flywheel has gotten out of whack ill it fire when not at tdc. as long as you are at tdc, the valve cam is set accordingly, and the flywheel woodruff key has not been sheared, you are good to go. on the newest question, it sounds as though someone may have mixed up the fuel line with the vacuum line. as sprocket said, you should have a vacuum line from the intake manifold to the top right side of the carb (the de-accelerator valve) and the center nipple of the fuel petcock using the splitter. the other nipples on the petcock should go to the tank and the carb.
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Post by gota150 on Jun 23, 2011 12:58:28 GMT -5
"...and the center nipple of the fuel petcock using the splitter. the other nipples on the petcock should go to the tank and the carb."
I dont see a traditional petcock on my bike.. just one hole at the bottom of the tank for fuel delivery, which is going into the carb on the left side - seeming appropriate. And I have a Vent on the top of the tank which only allows one hose attachment as well.
Please advise.
Originally when I got the bike the Vent hose on the top went down and had a splitter attaching it to the right side carb and the intake. Apparently this is incorrect as stated "you should have a vacuum line from the intake manifold to the top right side of the carb" .. which would connect those two. Fuel delivery hose from tank to Left side of carb. Thereby leaving the one VENT hose on top of tank... going to?
Thanks again.
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Post by sprocket on Jun 23, 2011 14:53:36 GMT -5
Here is a basic set-up You could have a tank mounter petcock... there is one fuel line and a bent nittle in the middle of it that is the vacuum line. If you don't have a petcock in the system either add one in the line or use a manual shut off valve. Attachments:
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Post by dyoung1167 on Jun 23, 2011 16:45:20 GMT -5
ditto if you only have one nipple off the bottom of your tank you don't have a valve installed. until you get either a manual valve or vacuum operated one, you can temporarily run directly from the tank ( through the filter of course ) to the carb. the nipple on the top is a vent. originally mine went to a small charcoal filter then to a larger catch can type canister that was then run to the intake between the filter and carb. a very light vacuum that i think just sucked the fumes out of the tank. my new intake didn't have the port to connect this so i got rid of the larger can and left the small charcoal hooked up. still, it's just a vent.
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Post by gota150 on Jun 23, 2011 16:48:29 GMT -5
OK, Ill look into a vacuum fuel valve. Is it really necessary for performance though? couldnt it really just vent to atmosphere or does it actually help in feeding the carb continued fuel?
... Cant wait to start cruisin'
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Post by sprocket on Jun 23, 2011 16:56:37 GMT -5
If you don't have a petcock.. you will wake up one morning with a scooter in a puddle of gas...
It is a safety issue...
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Post by dyoung1167 on Jun 23, 2011 23:38:41 GMT -5
yes, a safety thing. if your float valve sticks (rarely)the gas will just run thanks to gravity, but you are relatively safe for a short time, just remember to put new valve (manual or vacuum operated) at the top of your list.
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Post by gota150 on Jun 24, 2011 9:02:20 GMT -5
Get this! After running the scooter as I said being so EXCITED... I went to start the bike yesturday and NO START AGAIN! ... Everything remained the same since the time I rode yesturday. ... AGAIN I checked the cam Timing and Valves.. and all other things.. This is ridiculous.
Only thing I can figure is figuring the Definite spot for TDC on the CRANK.
Can anyone describe the Best method , minus straw method, to find the TDC of the crank by NOT using the CAM.. as I think the Chain must be off a tooth or so. So I can then find that Exact spot on the Magneto and Mark it.. As everyone says. the Flywheel marks are "off by a country mile".
Also, What mark in the Case are you "supposed" to be able align the "T" with.. The BIG one that is Protruding? And in and Ideal situation the alignment would be with THE T and not the Line to the Left of it, Right?
Is it possible that by not having the Vacuum pump the bike Would Fail to START... even though it started yesterday and ran.. ? ! ! !
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Post by tour96se on Jun 24, 2011 9:35:36 GMT -5
have you replaced the cdi or coil?
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Post by tour96se on Jun 24, 2011 9:36:15 GMT -5
or run a compression test?
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Post by dyoung1167 on Jun 24, 2011 10:31:08 GMT -5
the flywheel marks won't really work because spark is sent a little ahead of tdc (advance) the only true way is to remove the head, then you can make your own mark for future reference.
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Post by sprocket on Jun 24, 2011 12:05:42 GMT -5
If it ran before and now it doesn't it is not likely the engine set-up, but rather electrical.. check your spark and gas flow
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Post by gota150 on Jun 28, 2011 15:20:17 GMT -5
I have a new cdi on the way.. I dont know what else to do.
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Post by gota150 on Jun 28, 2011 15:22:57 GMT -5
I used my timing light while turning the engine over and found the timing Light mark was hitting when the F mark was lined up with the case... sounds correct?
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Post by sprocket on Jun 28, 2011 15:32:06 GMT -5
No.. use the cam sprocket to align the engine at TDC. Anything else is bogus... Attachments:
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Post by gota150 on Jun 29, 2011 14:43:59 GMT -5
I got it sprocket, however if you were given an unknown engine you wouldnt have 100% certantity that the cam/sprocket would have been installed correctly - in alignment with the crank. Its possible the cam/sprocket could have been installed incorrectly and thus need to be repositioned with the lower end.
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Post by sprocket on Jun 29, 2011 14:55:08 GMT -5
There is no crank mark and the flywheel is useless. The best method would be to pull the head or use a chopstick in the plug hole...
It would be nice if you could use the flywheel woodruff key groove in the crank as a reference but I have no idea what position it would be in at TDC..
On these engine it could be off a chain link but sometimes the cam chain is not on the lower sprocket but riding beside it... makes for some interesting running engines...
Could also be a problem with chain tensioner...
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Post by sprocket on Jun 29, 2011 14:59:43 GMT -5
I reread the thread.. what vacuum pump are you referring to? The vacuum is generated by the piston on the intake manifold...
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Post by dyoung1167 on Jun 29, 2011 15:48:30 GMT -5
yeah, there should not be a vacuum line from your tank to the carb or intake manifold. some systems have a (sort of) vac line from the tank vent through a multiport canister to a port on the intake between the filter and carb (sort of a vapor reclaim system), but NOT to the intake manifold.
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Post by gota150 on Jun 30, 2011 11:05:23 GMT -5
vacuum pump- I was referring to a pump that accomodates 4 hoses going into it . 2 from tank and 2 from intake and carb.. however this is not necessary to run the bike.
I believe the stock configuration on my bike is: Fuel comes from the lower tank to a filter and then to the left side of carb. Fuel tank has a vent hose from the top of tank to a T splitter - one going to right side of carb and the other going to the intake manifold.... However I dont think any of this would prevent the bike from starting, as I did run the bike once
Tell me more about the chain tensioner preventing starting.. although mine did seem to have great tension.
Also, If is hold the start button for a VERY long period of time (which i know is not good) the bike will eventually sound like starting.. then it will with more time START.. this is only done if a battery charger is attached.. meaning the engine is spinning over VERY fast...
.. cdi is on the way.
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Post by sprocket on Jun 30, 2011 11:19:42 GMT -5
If the engine is spinning fast then you need to adjust the valve.. or do a compression check...sounds like you have an internal engine problem and lack compression...hole in the piston etc...
Yo can do a small check like this. Remove the spark plug and place your finger over the hole in the engine where the plug screws in.. then try and start it...the pressure should blow you finger of with force...
No force.. you have a problem
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Post by gota150 on Jun 30, 2011 17:13:56 GMT -5
Remember I've already done a compression check, came in at 150psi
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Post by sprocket on Jul 1, 2011 14:32:24 GMT -5
Strange...the compression is fine...but the starter turning over fast is not characteristic of these engines...it is often an indication of poor compression or a bad starter clutch...
I think your best bet is to reset the cam chain...
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Post by mrtonydiamondz on Jul 2, 2011 10:41:45 GMT -5
Ok, On the INTAKE MANIFOLD that is the BLACK ELBOW that connects to the engine and the Carb It has a hose which is your Vacumm Hose. Take that off and Squirt some gas into the NIPPLE down into the engine put the Hose back on and try to start it. IF you have Spark it will attempt to Fire it may start and die but it will attempt to ingnite the little bit of gas you squirted in there. Let me know the results. Lefty
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Post by gota150 on Jul 5, 2011 8:22:17 GMT -5
Ok, getting you all up to speed. This past weekend I was able to get it to start and Run. Things complete: Verified and marked TDC by removing the head and looking at the Crown of Piston. Set Cam gear to TDC as well. Adjusted Valves after setting TDC. Installed New CDI. The bike will start after a Long Crank and will Run. However, It has a HUGE loss of power- meaning... If I give more than about 1/4 throttle the engine will "bogg". It is not running to full potential. - Remember the compression checked at 150psi. I disconnected the Fuel enricher - no change - I sent direct 12v to the enricher while running- No change. I removed the Top of the Carb where the diaphram is while running - seemingly no change- I then removed the Diapram and needle while running - No change, unless I began to Accelerate the throttle (while positioned on the center stand)
Note: My bike does not have the "Vacuum pump" Installed, just a hose from bottom of tank to carb. - May be prohibiting bowl from staying full of fuel under throttle??
Any Ideas? - Huge loss of Power / sputtering under throttle.
Seems like some sort of Carb/Air problem.. What size should the Main jet be (130 currently)? I have 16" wheels.
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Post by chasemon42 on Jul 5, 2011 10:03:03 GMT -5
Hi there gota150 lets clear this up is your gas tank gravity feed "up high" or pump feed "down low". U may check around but if u have not done any upgrades and r running 130 jet sound kinda high from what I have read on here. hit me back.
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Post by gota150 on Jul 5, 2011 10:34:58 GMT -5
My gas tank has a nipple sticking out from the bottom passenger side with a regular fuel hose attached to it, inline fuel filter, and going to the carb left side. That is all. I dont see any fuel pump.
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Post by edfr on Jul 5, 2011 12:10:41 GMT -5
If you do not have a Big Bore Kit on it the 130 main jet is TO MUCH your flooding the sh!t out of it that is why it is bogging on you. If it is stock the Main Jet should NOT BE BIGGER than 115 and even a 115 may be to big.
Just to give you an example I am running with a 62mm BBK and a 60mm Stroker Crank went from 149.6ccs to 182ccs and I am running with a #125 Main Jet and a #35 Pilot Jet. And the #125 is even a little to FAT I have a #122.5 ordered to put in. Lefty
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