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Post by gota150 on Jun 13, 2011 9:40:36 GMT -5
Hey guys, Im new to the board and Scooters. I recently purchased a very low mileage 2007 Jonway 150 Scooter and am Eager to get riding! However, I cannot get the bike to start and would love your expertise in going through a Check plan. Does it matter which Brake is being held when starting? - Ive tried both... So far this is what I have. I have good Spark I have Fuel getting to the carb. I have a New starter. I checked the enricher ohms being about 23 I am not getting 12v to the enricher The bike will only Turn over - but will Not Start. I cleaned the Carb - Which it was already clean to begin - didnt find anything ouf of the ordinary. Crank case vent tube is not connected to the airbox- doubtful this would prevent it from starting.  ?? Will the bike start if the Enricher is not functioning? Will the bike start if the Rectifier is not working or connected? Please HELP. Thanks in Advance |
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Post by gota150 on Jun 13, 2011 11:33:04 GMT -5
After looking further on the forums I came across this article in reference to the fuel enricher. scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=threewheelers&action=display&thread=38975&page=1Upon my inspection of my enricher it appears to be in the fully Pushed OUT position thus blocking the passage way - not allowing a choke position to start... If I pull the enricher off and apply 12 Volts to it, will it instantly begin its Slow movement or does it take a few minutes Before it begins Moving? If it is in the Open/Pushed OUT position (which mine appears to be) Will it Retract with the 12 V supplied? OR does this just indicate that it is Faulty - get a new one? Is there a way to fool the Carb making it think the Enricher is installed and in the correct Cold start Position - Retracted ? So that I can Start the bike? |
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Post by sprocket on Jun 13, 2011 13:43:24 GMT -5
YES... to both your questions in the first post...
You enricher should be RETRACTED when cold. It extends in about 3 minutes to lean the engine...
You can try removing the enricher and covering the hole with a finger.. it should start...
Sounds like your jets are plugged. You need to run a wire through the main jet
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Post by gota150 on Jun 13, 2011 20:16:41 GMT -5
YES... to both your questions in the first post... You enricher should be RETRACTED when cold. It extends in about 3 minutes to lean the engine... You can try removing the enricher and covering the hole with a finger.. it should start... Sounds like your jets are plugged. You need to run a wire through the main jet Ok, tonight I Dissassembled the carb, blew air through all the jets and inner passages. Everything appeared to check out fine. Back together it went. I checked Enricher with 12volts and waited - it did Extend- thus working. I also adjusted the Valve clearance at TDC to .004 - which they were both too tight to begin. - now OK Assembled all back together , Both Brake Levers held (park light on), On center stand- Turned it over and STILL Not Running! Good Spark, and its getting Fuel ??!! Rather confused. if any of you have any suggestions I would be open and appreciate even a call.. 337-212-3233 - Mitchel Thanks! |
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Post by edfr on Jun 13, 2011 20:25:37 GMT -5
Ok, try this turn the FUEL RATIO screw CLOCKWISE until it STOPS do not force it just until it stops. THen turn the Screw COUNTER CLOCKWISE 2 1/2 Turns.
Take the ENRICHER OFF and lay it off to the side somewhere.
Take your thumb and COVER the hole and hold it there and try starting it. You can use a piece of tape or something to Keep the Brake on SINCE YOU DON'T HAVE THREE HANDS(HEHE).
Lefty
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Post by gota150 on Jun 13, 2011 20:25:42 GMT -5
oh.. maybe a silly NOTE.. but , my bike is missing the Left hand side Headlight bulb--- does this complete some sort of circuit to start.. !.. i know sounds kinda crazy.. just thought Id throw it out there..
REALLY want to ride my new bike!
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Post by edfr on Jun 13, 2011 20:26:51 GMT -5
No, all the lights could be missing does not matter.
Lefty
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Post by gota150 on Jun 13, 2011 21:18:57 GMT -5
K, Tripple checked 2.5 turns out.. which it was, Tried taking the fuel enricher off, taped the opening and held it down, secured the Left hand brake, and turned it over.. No start. still good spark |
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Post by edfr on Jun 13, 2011 21:30:31 GMT -5
Ok, On the INTAKE MANIFOLD that is the BLACK ELBOW that connects to the engine and the Carb It has a hose which is your Vacumm Hose. Take that off and Squirt some gas into the NIPPLE down into the engine put the Hose back on and try to start it. IF you have Spark it will attempt to Fire it may start and die but it will attempt to ingnite the little bit of gas you squirted in there. Let me know the results.
Lefty
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Post by gota150 on Jun 13, 2011 21:49:21 GMT -5
ok, I loaded it up with Starting fluid - the Enricher is still off with the tape attached. No Start or spudder just spins over....
thanks...
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Post by edfr on Jun 13, 2011 22:40:51 GMT -5
Gota150,
That tells me the Spark Plug is NOT fireing or it is very weak.
Take the Spark Plug out and Hold it against the ENGINE to ground it and crank it.
You should see it Sparking a blueish spark. IF IT DOES NOT SPARK then GROUND it to the FRAME and crank it and see if it Sparks OFF THE FRAME.
Lefty
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Post by gota150 on Jun 14, 2011 8:19:24 GMT -5
I have been checking the spark against the frame and there is Plenty of Blue Spark... I havent tried it against the Engine however... I would believe it to be the same.. I can double check tonight.. any other ideas though?
Any good Diagrams of the Carb breakdown.. Perhaps something missing that Im unaware of or something installed incorrectly. ?? Crazyness
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Post by sprocket on Jun 14, 2011 11:08:56 GMT -5
You probably have a weak ground to the engine... check the wire that runs from the engine to the frame...always check for spark by holding the plug to valve cover of the engine NOT the frame....
Try starting it with no air filter attached...
If you have fuel, spark, air and compression the engine will run... you are missing one of these...
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Post by edfr on Jun 14, 2011 14:02:56 GMT -5
Sprocket,
That is why I told him to check both, I suspect his ground to the engine is not good or missing totally. Even if he has fuel delivery problems if you get some gas down the intake it will fire at least once or attempt to fire IF it has a Spark.
Lefty
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Post by sprocket on Jun 14, 2011 14:12:43 GMT -5
OOOPs I missed that.. you are right.. no engine ground, no go...
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Post by gota150 on Jun 14, 2011 16:25:28 GMT -5
Ok guys, The green ground is connected to the engine and straight to the frame ground. I will double check it tonight to verify it has continuity. Also, I will Verify spark to the Valve Cover...
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Post by gota150 on Jun 16, 2011 9:17:04 GMT -5
I checked for spark against the cyl head cover and still has Plenty of spark! I also cleanes the carb Tremendously well. I put it all back together minus the air box and sprayed starting fluid through the carb, but still would not even pop..
guess my next check is Compression.
Any way to check the Coil - perhaps under compression it is failing? Resistance check?
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Post by sprocket on Jun 16, 2011 10:20:56 GMT -5
Coil is fine if you have a good spark... sounds like you have no compression...
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Post by gota150 on Jun 16, 2011 21:15:50 GMT -5
Just what I was thinking Sprocket - low or no compression. I checked the compression tonight and it came in at 150PSI .. I have NO Idea! The only thing i can come to is Maybe, kinda, perhaps... I put the magneto again to T mark lined up with the case mark PERFECTLY. Then I went to the top Cam sprocket and looked at the alignment of the upper and 2 side holes. I understand the 2 holes should Line up Even with the top of the head. They Do NOT line Up PERFECTLY parallel with the top. If I turn the magneto to Line up the Holes PERFECTLY with the top of the head then the Line in the CASE is in Between the T and the F. maybe it jumped time.. but even still, doesnt seem like enough to not even pop/run rough... |
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Post by sprocket on Jun 17, 2011 12:39:16 GMT -5
DON"T use the flywheel mark...they are off by a country mile... use the cam chain alignment marks and a mirror if you can't see them to set TDC
I hate this method of adjusting the valves cause invariably they will be off TDC...
I use the Roll Over Method...
1. Remove the spark plug or back it off so it leaks compression
2. Remove the valve cover
3. Using the cooling fan with a wrench or turn with your hand, rotate the engine CLOCKWISE
4. Watch the valves.
5. When the INTAKE valve, the top one, is all the way open (the rocker arm is pressed all the way down) stop rotating the engine
6. Loosen the locking nut (9mm) on the EXHAUST valve, the bottom one, and using a feeler gauge with oil on it, turn the adjuster screw until it is .005 inch...
7. Tighten the locking nut and re-check the gap to .005"
Then
8. Rotate the engine again, CLOCKWISE until the EXHAUST valve is fully open (the rocker arm is pressed all the way down)
9. Now adjust the INTAKE valve, the top one, and set it to .004 inch
10. Tighten the locking nut and re-check the gap to .004"
11. Replace the valve cover
12. Screw in the plug, replace the plug boot and start up the engine...
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Post by dyoung1167 on Jun 17, 2011 13:23:55 GMT -5
this is how i verified tdc.
first allign the tdc marks on your cam sprocket. then remove the spark plug and using a thin wooden shishcabob or chopstick ( obviously don't use metal or you can mess up the threads on the spark plug hole), stick it in the combustion chamber. keep your finger under it and apply upward pressure (which would be downward pressure against the cylinder using the spark plug hole as a fulcrum). then very slowly rotate the engine a little back and forth. you will feel the chopstick move up and down against your finger. very easy to tell when it is exactly top dead center, when the cylinder is moving up it pushes the chopstick down and vice-versa. the point where it changes direction is tdc. be sure to rock it back and forth a few times in increasingly smaller turns until you get exactly center as there is the slightest bit of play where the wrist pin is rotating around the top of it's rotation where the cylinder does not move at all but the cam chain still moves. this can make it look as though your sprocket is off a tooth or so when it may not be. then check your cam sprocket marks to see if they coincide.
i think i'm making it sound harder than it is, but it is really very simple.
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Post by gota150 on Jun 17, 2011 14:44:50 GMT -5
Sprocket, Ill double check my valve clearance tonight using that method of fully open/fully closed.
Possibility - bad cdi sending spark at incorrect time. ?
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Post by sprocket on Jun 17, 2011 14:59:38 GMT -5
>>>this is how i verified tdc
I have use this on occasion too.. works fine... not sure it accounts for cam wear etc...
CDI capacitors usually get weak or stop working.. they don't go out of timing...in my experience
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Post by edfr on Jun 18, 2011 20:49:19 GMT -5
Just maybe the wrong spark plug is in there. If the spark plug is TO SHORT it will Ground out on the head. The Electode needs to extend into the head a little. What is the number of the spark plug that is in there. The timeing appears to be ok and you are getting spark and you have plenty of compression so. And if you squirted some gas in there it should at least pop so it is NOT IGNITING. It could just be the wrong spark plug being to short, if it was to long you would probably see the GAP smashed closed or almost closed if the piston hits it.
Lefty
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Post by gota150 on Jun 22, 2011 16:02:40 GMT -5
Ok, I have a new Ch7... spark plug that it calls for. ? - Is it possible that the Cam could be 180 degrees out from the crank/flywheel? and - Which mark do ya'll use on the flywheel lining up with the case mark ... The tip of the arrow , The Middle of the "T" , or "F" Ive seen other post with pics online and found some using the tip of the Arrow as the TDC to set Valve timing etc.... I.E. northeastbuggy.com/engine_mods.htm#CamshaftHere the tip of the arrow is being used as TDC Thanks! |
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Post by sprocket on Jun 22, 2011 16:07:14 GMT -5
Don't use the flywheel marks they are out by a country mile..use the cam sprocket.. the large hole should be up and the marks align with the head Attachments:
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Post by gota150 on Jun 22, 2011 16:27:44 GMT -5
Ok,.. I understand about the timing gear marks and alignment.
Is it possible to have the cam 180 out from the crank?.. think about it for a second.
Isnt it 2 revolutions on the flywheel to 1 rev. on the cam? ?
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Post by edfr on Jun 22, 2011 16:36:42 GMT -5
Yes, it could be 180 off, but that would only occur if you took off the cam and timed it wrong or the Woodruff key is sheared and the flywheel happened to rotate half on the shaft that much.
If you line the Cam Sprocket like Sprocket showed you the PISTION should be up top WITH BOTH VALVES CLOSED that would be your COMPRESSION STROKE. Then look at the Flywheel the timeing marks should be close to the "T" marks on the Flywheel.
Lefty
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Post by gota150 on Jun 22, 2011 19:08:19 GMT -5
Ok, IF the cam were 180 out (bought the bike non running who knows whats been done) .. and I adjusted the Valves like sprocket says "have the timing marks on the cam sprocket line up with head, and Both Valves are now in the Closed (compression) position" .. Adjust to .004.. the Bike Would Still Run.. Right... ?
Because - the Ignition is sending spark Everytime the magneto makes 360, therfore it would still be sending spark at the Right time.. (everytime - it doesnt know the difference)
Ehh?
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Post by sprocket on Jun 22, 2011 19:19:33 GMT -5
I think the cam is 180 deg out... the piston may be at TDC , don't know...
At TDC on the piston with the cam sprocket like the picture (big hole up) ---- both valve should be UP --- NOT COMPRESSED. You should be able to wiggle the rocker arms
The pick-up coil fires every 360 degrees...
There is a mark on the flywheel that will get you on the right stroke, align it to the "T" which is fairly close to TDC and see what the cam sprocket reads... big hole should be UP or the cam is wrong...
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??
