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Post by demon on May 26, 2007 9:22:27 GMT -5
How do you guys deal with tailgating cages? I was on my way to the store this morning when this stupid little girl, who probably just found her license at the bottom of a crackerjack box, was riding my ass for 3-4 traffic lights.. I kept an eye on her the whole time and everytime i approached a red light i would tap my breaks a few times before appling them to stop to alert her. Finally, i got so pissed that at the next light, i stopped , flipped up my visor, turned and looked over my shoulder at her with a hard stare and a dirty look She got the hint, which really pissed me off b/c that means she knew what she was doing... Just to clarify the situation, traffic was moving at 35-40 and i had 2 car lenghts of space between me and the car in front of me.. I was traveling in the middle lane of a 3 land road. {The right lane was stop and go due to people entering and exiting shopping plaza's, i find that to be more dangerous to a scoot then riding mid lane. Left lane was moving faster then mid lanes as well..} She was about 8-10' behind me at best (at 35-40mph) and would stop 3-5' from my rear wheel
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Post by Dennis D on May 26, 2007 11:40:32 GMT -5
Well, if you figure one car length at least for every 10 mph for safety... you needed to slow down to 5mph to make that a safe distance. But seriously, you were really following 2 car lengths behind the car in front with a car 8-10 feet behind you??? Do you have a death wish? You need to maintain at least 1 1/2 to 2 seconds of time between the vehicle ahead and yourself to have time to react and take action should something bad happen(or should a brick or 2x4 appear in your path). If a car is that close behind you you have to increase that to at least 3 sec. of space in front, so you don't get run over if you have to brake unexpectedly or take other evasive action. You dare not have to do anything extreme in that situation. Stop that... you're worrying me. All the safety gear you could buy won't be worth much if anything unexpected would happen in the situation you described!
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Post by demon on May 26, 2007 14:21:44 GMT -5
Dennis, i have found that if i leave too much space in front of me i get cut off a lot or car behind whip around me and cut in front of me (b/c the the extra car length they just gained is so important). So be keeping about 2 car lengths distance (at 35mph) maybe slightly more like 35 feet (i give 10 feet per 10 mph till 40mph then i give 20 feet per 10 mph over that). If i leave too much room i get cut off and if i close the gap a bit and people want to get in front of me the look at me and point and i let them in.. This one girl decide to just ride my @$$ like i would go faster or something, i actually did increase my distance between me and the car in front a bit more for the very reason you stated but that would not help me if i even slowed down normal b/c if she sneezed or blinked she be up my rear. Which, is why at the next light i gave her a nasty look.. keep in mind this occurred over the couse of 3 or 4 lights (TOPS)... 1/2- 3/4 of a mile. i recognized the bad situation, gave it an oportunity to straighten its self out and when it didnt, then took action. Funny, now that i am thinkin about this i have realized that its harder for me to judge a "car length" when im not in a car... I am going to have to pay more attention to gaugign distance to be more accurate (and safe . perception on a bike is different...
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Post by Dennis D on May 26, 2007 18:14:33 GMT -5
Yeah the car length for 10 mph has gottem shorter and shorter as the cars get smaller. Used to be everyone knew that a car length was 16-18 feet anyway. It wasn't really enough anyhow. I can't guess car lengths, and when I try to maintain the 2 second rule(start counting a thousand one, a thousand two when the vehicle in front goes past a predetermined landmark), it's usually a second and a half... I get to "a thous" on the 2nd second. 2 seconds back is a long way.... but I know that 1 2/3 sec. is only enough time if I am "on the edge" at all times. If I let my vigilance down or am distracted for an instant it's not near enough. I've watched on streets that have a lot of manhole covers that I don't remember where they are, to see if I can dodge em at 1 1/2 sec back. If I was riding so I already would have been off center to them(so I would have hit em on one side or another) I can dodge em. If they are dead center in my path, I often hit one edge or the other... not really better than hittin em dead center and could be worse. If I am an actual two seconds back, I can dodge em no problem.
Added on edit: It's not that I'm all that worried about manhole covers on my scoot with the 13" wheels, it's more of an exercise... like smashing pop cans with car tires. But at only 1 1/2 sec. back from the car ahead, I hope I don't wnd up finding a 3 1/2' 2x4 that the cars were straddling, in the lane ahead. If it was dead center in the lane and they didn't do something that would give it away that it was there... that could be a big problem! So I'm trying to learn to keep 2 sec back. Reaction time is only about 1/5 second, but that's for something you know is going to happen and a pre-programmed response. Like a full throttle roll on the instant the light changes... also not a great idea on a bike, unless there's NO cross traffic nearby(that could run the light).
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Post by demon on May 26, 2007 19:25:34 GMT -5
yeah reaction time is a biggie, i cant honestly say how much time or distance i put a car in front of me at but all i know is that i keep it comfortable to where there is not a big opening to get cut off but i have room to stop and i always try to keep either the left or right side of me clear in case i need to evacuate the lane im in. I have also noticed that the space i give is highly dependent on the situation, road conditions and traffic patterns (light, moderate or heavy traffic) there are just so many variables that i subconciousely consider and dont realize i am doing it.. i also listen to my "gut" i dont do things that dont feel right or enter a position that doesnt look right..
Thats another reason i dont like the right lane, there is only the shoulder next to you which is usually littered with debris.. car parts, glass, small rocks and sand.. just as dangerous to pull evasive manuvers onto the shoulder..
I generally prefer the middel lane on the scoot.. the left lane is usually too fast and the right lane has traffic entering and exiting the roadway plus a lot of sudden stopping and going b/c no one pays attention.. in the middle traffic moves at a moderate pace, i got a lane to the left and right to move to in case of trouble and i ALWAYS keep one of those lanes next to me opened, i never ride side by side with a car and especially not one on both sides of me..
i am waiting for the Harley dealer near me to hold thier advanced rider course, i dont need the basic course b/c i know how to ride, clutch brake steer etc. The advanced course refreshes the basic's (which i need to learn lane positioning, i got those wrong on my permit test) but they focus more in evasive manuvers, controling the bike and a generaly more advanced skill set like how to hit a pothole or that 2x4 you cant avoid.. All the off road riding i have done i can handle it but you dont get road rash as easy on dirt, the trees dont "Jump" in your way, the last thing another rider wants to do is hit you... in the street its the opposite, cars cut you off, they dont see you, they move (trees dont) and if they hit you it might scratch thier car but they will live..
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Post by earlwb on May 27, 2007 9:54:53 GMT -5
I just ride a little slower, it usually gets them off my back. They eventually go around. I guess a positive note is as you are riding along slower than normal, if some moron rear ends the tailgater, it'll protect you. Most tailgates seem to beleive that the intimidation approach works and people get out of their way or speed up. What I really hate are the rich people driving their Hummer's in the right lane of a road that is three lanes wide, and they really expect you to get out of their way, as it is too much trouble to pass you on the left lanes.
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Post by demon on May 27, 2007 10:49:23 GMT -5
Earl.. didnt youknow that when you buy a car/suv over $50k it comes with a certificate to drive like an @$$hole ....LOL... FL is a No Fault state, it dont matter if you get rear ended
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Post by Dennis D on May 27, 2007 11:12:13 GMT -5
If you get rear ended in moving traffic on a scooter, you'll probably get run over, too. Then nothing will matter. I'm glad though, that you make sure to not pace traffic in adjacent lanes, or let them pace you. Sometimes someone pacing you could be an indication of malevolent intentions (especially when it's a vehicle wit tint to dark to see the driver well), and at least not letting traffic pace you, gives you more escape routes.
If you're ging to run along as close behind other vehicles as you said you do... it might be a good idea to stay fairly close to whichever lane nest to you happens to be open, even if it means switching which side of the lane you ride on, frequently. If large quick changes in direction are necessary, it can turn you into roadkill quickly, especially if someone's tailgating you. Changing from one side lof the lane to the other often, to give yourself a handy escape route, will also keep the tailgaters guessing, and they may back off some just because they won't understand what you're doing.
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Post by demon on May 27, 2007 19:44:59 GMT -5
I like talkin to you Dennis, you always got good pointers... U Da Man!!
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Post by earlwb on May 28, 2007 8:03:19 GMT -5
Well here in Texas it is your fault if you rear end someone. Unless they changed the law recently, and I didn't find out about it. But bad drivers are bad drivers no matter what. They tailgate everyone one, not just scooters.
I still love it when I see some moron, pull right up super close to a 18 wheeler at a stop light. Then the truckdriver rolls badwards a little before they get started forward and hit the car or truck, but keep on going, because they can't see a thing or feel anything for that matter. Moron drivers. Yup still the drivers fault for getting hit as the truck rolled backwards a little.
Of course the idiots that still stop on railroad tracks get me. What can they possibly not be thinking of in those little brains of theirs.
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Post by demon on May 31, 2007 18:50:05 GMT -5
NY was the same way earl, but appearently FL is a "No Fault" State... How stupid is that.. It dont matter if you get hit in the rear its no fault.. I think its so the insurance co. can give it to you in the rear
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Post by A J on Jun 2, 2007 2:46:14 GMT -5
How do you guys deal with tailgating cages? She was about 8-10' behind me at best (at 35-40mph) and would stop 3-5' from my rear wheel I read all the posts down to here with interest as I have experienced much of what was written about. I drive the extremes in vehicle length; a 7 foot scoot and a 40 foot bus and I can assure you there are idiots affecting the operation of either. Some people drive with their mind shut off. THIS IS A QUOTE FROM THE STATE MANUAL [ b]How Much Space? How much space should you keep in front of you? One good rule says you need at least one second for each 10 feet of vehicle length at speeds below 40 MPH. At greater speeds, you must add one second for safety. For example, if you are driving a forty-foot bus, you should leave 4 seconds between you and the vehicle ahead. Over 40 MPH, you'd need 5 seconds.[/b] [/color] Now this is, of course for a commercial vehicle, and I don't think the same rule is valid for a scooter (at 7 feet length), but I can attest to the fact that in traffic people will crawl into my safety space all the time. The heaver the traffic the worse it is. I usually end up traveling slower than the rest of the traffic in order to try to keep the clear buffer between me and the vehicle ahead. Get into a slow down on the interstate where the speed limit is 65 or 75 and we have bumper to bumper traffic moving at 10 to 20 MPH with occasional stops and the idiots that need to be 2 seconds ahead of the commercial vehicle will effectively slow the commercial vehicle to a crawl. Personally, when ever I get into a situation like that, whatever I am driving, I will pace a large truck to keep those idiots from chewing up his safety cushion by cutting him off. After all, we aren't going to get there any sooner (or later) if we have a hundred feet open in front of us or 10 feet. At 60 MPH a vehicle travels 88 feet per second. So, according the the state manual, a 40 foot vehicle should have 440 feet of clear space in front of it. A truck traveling at the speed limit with more than a football field of clear space in front of it just sucks in cagers when they get 30 to 50 feet past it. That's like a HALF second of cushion. If the idiot is traveling 10 MPH faster than the truck (10 MPH = 14.67 feet/second), and maintains speed, he will be in the danger zone for a half minute if the truck doesn't slow down. I always think: so if an Elk suddenly enters the roadway just in front of the idiot, he has a choice to make. Take a half ton of Elk through the windshield or get punched from behind by 10 to 80 ton of truck. I think, either way, he's a loser. Yup, leave 3 car lengths open in front of a scooter and and it looks like an invitation to a cager to crawl right in there. Even at 2 car lengths, many will swerve in if their lane slows down. Over 42,000 people each year die from auto accidents. Keep alert ! Don't become a statistic.
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Post by Dennis D on Jun 2, 2007 8:11:44 GMT -5
AJ , your post gives an excellent reason why whenever possible, it is a prudent choice to choose roads with a single lane in either direction over multi-lane roads when on a two wheeler as much as is possible. One second at up to 40 mph for 10 foot vehicles if the state recommendation? That's a recipe for a chain reaction right there if there was no other place to go! Assessment, choosing a response and physically beginning to take the chosen action takes at least a half second for anyone encountering something unexpected, and nothing can stop in half a second from forty! If that(or worse) is the situation you're riding in, and something happens out of the blue... keeping alert won't save your bacon. We can't afford to get sucked into situations created by people in cages who can bounce off of one another in a forty vehicle pile up where everyone walks away. You see that on TV several times a year. Don't take a chance getting in the middle of that in a two wheeler, because safety gear and alertness won't help you if it happens. Only an extreme amount of good luck and Providence might!
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Post by cloudaz on Jun 2, 2007 20:20:26 GMT -5
I usually don't pay attention to them and just mind the rest of the traffic, however I have been known to give random brake light checks.
later Wendell
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Post by A J on Jun 3, 2007 1:42:21 GMT -5
AJ , your post gives an excellent reason why whenever possible, it is a prudent choice to choose roads with a single lane in either direction over multi-lane roads when on a two wheeler as much as is possible. One second at up to 40 mph for 10 foot vehicles if the state recommendation? That's a recipe for a chain reaction right there if there was no other place to go! Thanks for the reply. Yes. I prefer 2-lane roads for scooter riding too. Unfortunately, I need to use the 4-lane road just to get to the grocery store or the post office in my area. I live just 4 miles off of 4 lanes. I'm not sure that I was clear about the 1 second per 10 foot of vehicle rule. That applies only to commercial vehicles that are longer than regular passenger vehicles. The assumption being that longer vehicles are carrying more weight and require longer stopping distances. It would practically be suicide to apply that rule to a scooter. I try to always drive with an "exit strategy" in mind in case the unexpected happens in the roadway. Being able to "get around" the unfortunate incident has saved my bacon on more than one occasion. Professional drivers are trained to be alert and look ahead (and behind) and anticipate possible dangerous situations developing and take appropriate action before it becomes an emergency. Of course, this is not always possible, but we try.
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Post by Charlie on Jun 3, 2007 18:28:28 GMT -5
On another forum I read TWT (Two Wheeled Texans) tailgating is also an ongoing discussion. One suggestion they had was to briefly turn around and look at the tailgater (minus hand gestures). A lot of cagers aren't aware of they are following you that closely because they are distracted with their phones, egg Mcmuffins, coffee, newspaper etc. If you look at them (the story goes) they get the idea.
I am not sure I buy into that. When I have a tailgater I repeatedly and at random (no particular pattern) tap my brake lights. If that does no good I pull over and let the AS_HOLE pass.
Tailgating aside the most dangerous situation I have encountered in my 42 plus years of riding is simply sitting at a stop light in traffic. I ALWAYS set up an escape plan in my mind. I NEVER sit dead center of the roadway lest my brake light be mistaken for a center tail/brake light of the cage in front of me.. I ALWAYS sit right or left of center.
Left allows me to lane split in an emergency (Cage not stopping) or Right to head for the shoulder or right turn lane. I also aim my bike slightly to the direction of my escape to make an easier exit but, be careful when you do this because you want your tail light not to be obviated by your angle. I NEVER stop watching my mirrors unless there is a 3-5 vehicle buffer between me and the next approaching vehicle.
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Post by demon on Jun 3, 2007 21:39:11 GMT -5
charlie, i do the same, tap the breaks a little, ride left center so my break light is in thier view... and in the perticular case that started this thread i had stopped at the light, turned my head and gave the person a real hard dirty stare.. she got the hint my nevertheless she made me real nervouse being so close and i was contantly watching my mirrors which opened anoter concern to me....
I am so busy looking at her i am not dedication the amount of attention i need to what is in front of me... Over all a Tailgater is a nasty situation
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Post by A J on Jun 4, 2007 10:56:28 GMT -5
O When I have a tailgater I repeatedly and at random (no particular pattern) tap my brake lights. If that does no good I pull over and let the AS_HOLE pass. I like your solution Charlie. I have used that on several occasions. Demon made a good point. We can get so distracted by the A-HOLE that it becomes a dangerous situation in front as well as behind. Cheers, A J
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Post by fulltimerart on Jun 4, 2007 17:44:19 GMT -5
Lotsa good tips on this thread but I guess the most important is watch out for yourself! I remember an old safety slogan, "Remember, you could be dead right" and I would just as soon let the doofus pass-I will gladly get out of his way. I also keep a real close eye on cagers coming up behind me at a light, but I have a "Rider-Light", which is a LED strip on the back of my helmet which is triggered by my brake light---maybe it helps to catch their eyes to let them know I'm there. Art
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Post by demon on Jun 4, 2007 19:28:17 GMT -5
eeeeewwwoooahhh...yuk... "Dead Right"...... I dont like the sound of that... Really Really scarrrrrrryyyyy
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Post by Charlie on Jun 5, 2007 8:02:03 GMT -5
Last weekend (Blues Fest weekend here in Eureka) a cager hit a Harley Driver. The M/C was launched into the car in front of the HD and the driver ended up on the hood essentially unharmed. I don't know any circumstances other than what is in the paper. Reportedly the cager was distracted. Low speed accident but the HD was beyond riding. Happens fast.
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Post by earlwb on Jun 7, 2007 11:01:43 GMT -5
I sort of have a small paranoid fear of the getting hit from the rear by a moron while waiting for a stoplight to change. Several times it was close. I think it'll happen one day when an idiot hits me like that too. several close calls so far.
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Post by siestarandy on Aug 5, 2007 20:35:31 GMT -5
I read on another forum tonite a solution to this quandry.
Somebody mentioned a small stash of old rusty nuts and bolts.
Can you say "Ploink"?
Obviously, discresion is the key, but if I was tailgating in a car and something bounced off my windshield, I'd back off!!
Cheers,
SiestaRandy
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Post by demon on Aug 6, 2007 14:58:26 GMT -5
BB's from a BB gun work well.. they are small steel balls and make a racket when the hit a cage. they could easily crack a wind shield... the trick is to hold 1 ball in your left hand and balance it on your thumbnail and first crease of your pointer finger, just like you'd flip a coin. Bring it up to your right shoulder and gently flip ot out.... depending on the speed you are traveling, distance of th ecage behind you and pressure you apply one could become fairly accurate as to where that ball lands..
Now, if you were to use sling shot balls you are sure to crack a wind shield... back in my day it was D cell battiers out the T top to back off the tailgater...lol
but lets not forget, i really do not recommend this since you scoot is not exactly fast in acelleration nor top speed and the last thing you want is an angry cage chasing you and intentionally causing you harm... they are bigger and faster and better protected then we are
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Post by termite on Aug 6, 2007 17:08:23 GMT -5
but lets not forget, i really do not recommend this since you scoot is not exactly fast in acelleration nor top speed and the last thing you want is an angry cage chasing you and intentionally causing you harm... they are bigger and faster and better protected then we are Depends on your "scoot".....Here's mine. Top speed is over 120. Yeah, yeah, technically it's not a scooter...........
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Post by aristide1 on Aug 24, 2007 9:40:35 GMT -5
Earl.. didnt youknow that when you buy a car/suv over $50k it comes with a certificate to drive like an @$$hole ....LOL... ( I can't believe you said that, I've been saying it to for years!
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Post by aristide1 on Aug 24, 2007 9:46:26 GMT -5
Lotsa good tips on this thread but I guess the most important is watch out for yourself! I remember an old safety slogan, "Remember, you could be dead right" and I would just as soon let the doofus pass-I will gladly get out of his way. I also keep a real close eye on cagers coming up behind me at a light, but I have a "Rider-Light", which is a LED strip on the back of my helmet which is triggered by my brake light---maybe it helps to catch their eyes to let them know I'm there. Art Where did you get this? I've been thinking that a wireless brake light on the helmut could be operated with Bluetooth technology.
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Post by aristide1 on Aug 24, 2007 9:48:20 GMT -5
I sort of have a small paranoid fear of the getting hit from the rear by a moron while waiting for a stoplight to change. Several times it was close. I think it'll happen one day when an idiot hits me like that too. several close calls so far. Around here it happens to bikers and cars who apparently were dumb enough to stop for the red light. I'm surprised (or I missed it) that people didn't mention moving back and forth in your own lane. I thought that was a standard tactic. Where I am not all people tailgate on purpose, though we have more than our share of "those". Some do it for the same reason they run lights, or slide off the road when it snows, or hit a deer they could have avoided. I can sum it up in one word; they are oblivious! To everything around them, their world extends maybe 10 feet in front of their vehicle, none on the sides or back. Remember the song "You live in your own private Idaho?" Well for these people Idaho is much too big. There are a number of places selling "modulated" brakelights to attempt to attract the attention of the oblivious. I find the oblivious a problem in cages as well. They clearly are missing any signs of understanding the laws of physics, many of them get closer as you speed up, then only increase their distance when rolling to a stop at a red light, when it pretty much should be the exact opposite. I once stopped and asked someone to not tailgate me, they insisted they weren't tailgating, it's totally hopeless. The reason the problem exists - THERE IS NO LAW ENFORCEMENT OF TAILGATING! In NY it's a 4 point violation, and I doubt tickets are written even after tailgaters cause accidents. A law that's not enforced is totally useless. When that becomes known that's as much as endorsing tailgating. And for some reason many drivers from outside the US that are here think our highways are the equivalent of the wild west.
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Post by stewntexas on Aug 24, 2007 14:23:11 GMT -5
I added a brake light flasher on my Helix. Actually it is a small BRIGHT Led brake light that can be attached to the rear. Some people put it down on the license plate bracket, but I put mine on the lower edge of the add-on trunk box.
Some models are activated by inertia, some just by the brake circuit. I prefer the brake circuit as an easy brake application activates it.
Take a look:
brakeflasher.com/cycle
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Post by richard on Aug 28, 2007 13:53:16 GMT -5
i just try to time the lights, i travel the same areas a lot, kinda used to the traffic pattern. if the lights red, i just slow to a craw a few hundred feet back from the light. that way, im never just sitting at the light.
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