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Post by Aaron on Jan 12, 2008 14:47:32 GMT -5
Before this gets ugly guys let me set the record straight. Andi was teasing on his picky comment. That however has set off a tone to this discussion that might mean it gets out of hand. Leo Andi is a technical advisor for heavy equipment ... he is a very capable mechanic and trouble shooter. His advice is not just off the cuff. Andi .... behave. Trinidad is too far for me to travel to straighten you out. Remember we are friendly. Just a gentle reminder before things get ugly.
Aaron
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Post by Andi on Jan 12, 2008 15:46:40 GMT -5
Its interesting to note that 6 days ago you left a smug reply to one of my posts and you are now suffering the very thing I wrote about. I hope you are capable of trouble shooting and able to listen to the advice given on this forum ...... you don't remember? no, i don't. provide a link to the post and thread please. OK Leo, just because its you: scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1199592245&page=1#1199635247Scroll down you must find it.just provide the links i requested above. As requested above
done. Again I would check everything before any modifications, as sometimes modifications make things worse. For example: Portable Diesel Compressors or Welding Plants are designed to be working with all access panels closed. It is a general misconception for many customers I have dealt with, to leave them open for better cooling in hot weather. The airflow over the engines radiator is not properly directed with the unit all opened up and the cooling is therefore less efficient. I'm not saying this is your case, but why fix something if it ain't broken. Reading through the rest of your post I know you haven't checked anything on your cooling system.i have no idea where the radiator cap is. you fill the thing under the seat, and that has a snap on lid. there are no ventilation holes in the cowl. apparently this bike depends on the fan to draw air thru the radiator. Well, that's what I was just talking about Leo, you are scaring me right now, radiator and radiator cap is pretty basic stuff. You already mentioned earlier in this thread that the radiator is "behind and above the headlights". The radiator cap is in 90% of the time on the radiator unless the overflow bottle is also pressurized which is unlikely on this unit. The clear plastic bottle under the seat is the overflow bottle of the coolant system and filling that will do very little in making sure the system is topped up and burped properly. As the coolant heats up and therefore expands requiring more volume, its released into the overflow, as the system cools back down and the coolant retracts, its returned back into the radiator. Any such cooling system has a fan and it does just that, draw air through the radiator, but the fan only comes on as an extra to the breeze form driving, when running hard in hot weather and in stop and go traffic. The fan should be thermostat controlled to kick in above a certain temperature. Improper air flow will still have the system overheating especially when its already hot outside. I don't know about the required airflow on your bike, but the attached pic is of my Race 250, the radiator is directly behind the two vent openings above the light.nothing that says "temp". even if it did i wouldn't know if it was Fahrenheit or centigrade. Again you scaring me, most of these gages are pretty simple, indicating from C (cold) to H (hot), often with a green section going into red. Take a look at mine, so far it has stayed just below the half mark on any ride:The left gage is the speedo the right gage is for fuel and the small one in the center is the temp gage, the needle is on C (cold).okay.
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Post by Andi on Jan 12, 2008 16:08:10 GMT -5
Before this gets ugly guys let me set the record straight. Andi was teasing on his picky comment. That however has set off a tone to this discussion that might mean it gets out of hand. Leo Andi is a technical advisor for heavy equipment ... he is a very capable mechanic and trouble shooter. His advice is not just off the cuff. Andi .... behave. Trinidad is too far for me to travel to straighten you out. Remember we are friendly. Just a gentle reminder before things get ugly. Aaron Point taken Aaron, I saw your post after I finished, but I don't think my response is inappropriate or nasty, just a bit more deliberate. Andi
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Post by leo on Jan 12, 2008 18:32:56 GMT -5
andi, thanks for the links i requested. if you scroll just a tad further down you will discover this post by me when i discovered my error: so, as you can see, there really is no reason to "rub my face in it" Again I would check everything before any modifications, as sometimes modifications make things worse. i'm not really sure what the problem is with the cooling. today i had it out and parked it just when that unknown red light came on. i could hear gurgling. apparently the coolant is being boiled out of the engine into the overflow bottle. i also noticed the radiator was hot, so the coolant is circulating through it. the fan does not run with the key off, it must be on for the fan to work.
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Post by scooterollie on Jan 12, 2008 19:33:47 GMT -5
Leo; No need for the fan to run with the key off. Some cars and scot scoots & cycles allow the fan to run after the key is turned off and some don't. What Andi is telling you is that you must first make certain that everything is OK on your scoot before attempting any mods. If the cooling system is low on coolant, it won't function properly. Find the radiator fill cap and remove it - engine COLD - and look for coolant. If you don't see any, add some 50/50% mix until full. Start the engine at idle speed - DO NOT TWIST THROTTLE! Allow it to run for a couple of seconds, then shut it down. If the coolant level has dropped, fill it up, again. Repeat the cycle until the level of coolant no longer drops. Replace the radiator cap and drive the scoot, watching the temp. gauge - if it has one. There have been some vehicles that only have a warning light that comes on if the coolant temp. gets too high - no heat gauge - but I haven't heard of this on a Chinese scoot yet. Anything is possible, though.
I really don't remember what you said earlier about how you bought the scoot. If it was from a legitimate B & M dealer or Internet dealer, give them a call for tech advice, FIRST. If you came about the scoot another way, we are here to assist BUT, you have to do your homework too. Please spend some quality time searching through the forum, reading previous posts offering any information in regards to your model scoot and problem(s).We all started with zero knowledge and experience some time or another - some of us a long time ago, some recently. Make some effort to educate yourself and then you will be able to ask better questions and better understand our responses. We really do want to help but we just go around in circles when we aren't communicating intelligently.
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Post by leo on Jan 12, 2008 19:59:12 GMT -5
. . . drive the scoot, watching the temp. gauge - if it has one. this scoot has no analog gauges, it's all LED. there is a speedo, but i'm not sure if it's accurate, or even if it registers in MPH. the is also a tach. it registers in increments of 500. in between these two gauges is the mysterious blinking red light. there is also 2 buttons on the dash which provide some unknown function. from a private person that owned a car lot. he had 4 of these scoots in his garage. 2 150's, mine, and another one. i asked about some manuals when i bought the bike, didn't get any. i also didn't get any warranties. i've been crawling the web, looking, haven't found anything related to my problem. i was kind of hoping for some easy fixes, but i'm beginning to see i'm gonna have to do this by brute force, tear it apart and go through it piece by piece. i was hoping to avoid that, but it seems that is what i must do.
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Post by leo on Jan 12, 2008 23:48:09 GMT -5
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Post by WarrenS on Jan 13, 2008 12:30:09 GMT -5
I am not familiar with your scoot so I don't know what the red light signifies. As to the 2 buttons they are normally used to change the LCD display. The left button is usually the select button and the right button is the change button. Pressing both at once may change the display from miles to kilometers. I hope this is some help for you.
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Post by leo on Jan 13, 2008 13:54:51 GMT -5
I am not familiar with your scoot so I don't know what the red light signifies. i am almost certain it's a temp light. it isn't a gauge, just a light that comes on and flashes when the engine is hot. figured that out by trial and error. the one one the right appears broken off or recessed. the dash gizmos are the least of my worries right now, but thanks. i need to scope out the coolant and fuel problems first. the weather here has been lousy (rain with a hint of snow). it's really hard to work under a tarp. but keep those ideas coming, it's certainly appreciated.
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Post by leo on Jan 14, 2008 16:28:23 GMT -5
check out the following 2 threads for fuel starvation problems: scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=200cc&action=display&thread=1188256982&page=1scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=tipsandtricks&action=display&thread=1152021224the air intake has been removed from my bike and replaced with an after market one, i wonder if that might cause some problems, especially if the vacuum lines weren't run right: scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1200409385i mentioned this to the shop yesterday. the guy went out and felt around under my bike and told me that the after market air intake is probably my "fuel starvation" problem. this might also alleviate my cooling problems to a certain degree. i might have to fashion some sort of airbox to increase manifold vacuum. as for my scoot getting hot, i pulled the front cowl off today and set the scoot on its center stand. after a couple of attempts she stayed running. i let it idle for about 5 minutes with the radiator cap off. left the cap off and wound it up to 4k rpm and held it for about 10 to 15 minutes. the liquid was circulating in the radiator. i also noticed bubbles in the fluid. the bubbles wasn't present during warmup, nor during idle. they only became apparent when warm and at 4k rpm. there was also alot of vibration in the radiator which could have produced the bubbles. what is a sure fire way of testing for a blown head gasket? what else could cause these bubbles? the flashing red light never came on during my test. a really good resource for diagnosing cooling problems: www.troubleshooters.com/toverheat.htmif i can't run down the cause of my overheat i'll rip out the front end and dash. i'll buy an after market temp gauge and speedo, a couple of car headlights, and mount all of that to the top of my head tube. then i'll use the space i opened up to mount a large radiator and fan. thoughts?
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Post by leo on Jan 14, 2008 21:59:39 GMT -5
since "big daddy" is suffering from a "head wound" i had to drag out ol' junior, my 50cc scoot. what a difference in handling! my komoto is rock solid in stability compared to my 50cc. a mild breeze was putting me all over the road.
it still makes me wonder what happened to my 250. my best guess would be: the bike had 86 miles on it with the original oil in it. i drove it the 77 miles to my house. i also drove it around town here when i got here. when i checked the oil a day later it was empty, i put about 3/4 quart of valvoline 10w40 in it. apparently i had run it dry on oil which caused the engine to over heat and boil the jacket dry thereby blowing the head gasket.
well, good news, i think. my bike has 2 radiators on it and it apparently needs both to keep it cool. the fan on the underside radiator had quit working. the shop i took it to said it was enough to overheat the bike. i was preparing myself for a $400 head job but instead will only pay about $40.
i'm still thinking of putting in some ductwork on the upper radiator. that one is totally enclosed except for a few small (maybe 3/8") holes along the sides of the cowl.
my next major problem is "fuel starvation".
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Post by leo on Jan 18, 2008 18:32:24 GMT -5
the shop i took my bike to informed me that the manufacturer has discontinued these komotos because of poor design that causes overheating.
so now what? i'm sure i can work out something. my bike already has 2 radiators on it, and it STILL overheated.
i've cut a hole in the cowl and that helped. i'm wondering about a heater core or some other thing that will work. maybe a higher CFM fan?
i believe the overheating problem is why i got it so cheap. i'm somewhat relieved in a way because i was actually more worried about a broken frame or cracked block.
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Post by Andi on Jan 20, 2008 9:37:00 GMT -5
the shop i took my bike to informed me that the manufacturer has discontinued these komotos because of poor design that causes overheating. so now what? i'm sure i can work out something. my bike already has 2 radiators on it, and it STILL overheated. i've cut a hole in the cowl and that helped. i'm wondering about a heater core or some other thing that will work. maybe a higher CFM fan? i believe the overheating problem is why i got it so cheap. i'm somewhat relieved in a way because i was actually more worried about a broken frame or cracked block. I have the Linhai engine in mine and have not had any overheating issues, seems to work well so far. I wouldn't be surprised if the front cowl of my model would fit on your bike, as the rest of the plastic panels look identical. You would have to get the light assembly as well though, check out this link: www.iscooterparts.com/store/c/125-250cc-Race-Scooter.html?I can't guarantee this to be the answer to your problem, but if your rad is in the same placement as mine I think it should, as I believe the body to be the same except for the front cowl and light. The first and second pic show the rad placement, please note the radiator fill cap. The third picture shows the coolant overflow bottle. As I mentioned before proper airflow design is very important and just cutting a hole somewhere to add more air flow may even defeat the purpose as I explained with the compressor and welding plant example. Did you do any of the other checks I recommended? Before I ever started my scoot I changed all fluids including coolant and found the whole system plugged up with aluminum corrosion due to poor coolant quality. I took of the hoses going to the engine, flushed the whole system and replaced with proper premixed coolant for aluminum engines, by filling up the rad including burping the system and topping up the overflow. These chunks were in the coolant, prompting a more thorough check. This is the waterpump hose connection, the passage was reduced to half the size, the other conncetion was identical. No sense running the engine like that. The problem showed itself already during visual inspection, when I detected two slight leaks at the coolant hose connection on the engine and the corrosion the coolant had caused on the aluminum. EVO Sales suggested that was normal and not to worry about it. One quickly distinguishes B$ ..... sales people from tech support .... caring and not caring for customers. Hope this helps. Andi
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Post by leo on Jan 20, 2008 10:31:09 GMT -5
I have the Linhai engine in mine and have not had any overheating issues, seems to work well so far. I wouldn't be surprised if the front cowl of my model would fit on your bike, as the rest of the plastic panels look identical. You would have to get the light assembly as well though, check out this link: www.iscooterparts.com/store/c/125-250cc-Race-Scooter.html?thanks for the input andi, you're entire post was very informative. however, my bike has the 244cc honda helix clone, not the linhai. i'm sure i could use some of those lights and gauges though, i don't really like those LED dashes at all. i would especially like a speedo and temp gauge. my bike is identical to the one in the first post of this thread, except for the color. as for the radiator placement, my bike has 2. one is underneath the bike and is probably OEM. the other one is mounted where yours is, on the forks. one thing jumped out immediately, and that is your radiator looks like it's almost 3 times the size of mine. that alone may well be the cause of my problems. the hole i cut was right under the handlebars, in the middle of the cowl. where the vents are on your bike. i also removed a side panel. the dealer said he changed the coolant. it's been like 20 degrees here, going down to 5 or zero at night, too cold to do much to my bike. i do believe a good flushing with a larger radiator will probably cure my problem. also, my bike will not run at a constant speed. the constant acceleration no doubt aggravates the cooling problem. the engine on mine shows no signs of leakage, so i have no way of knowing. stuff like this doesn't bother me too much. i actually consider it as part of the love affair between man and bike. i'd bring mine inside if i could get it through the door. who is it that has the picture of a guy sleeping with his bike? earl? it certainly has. after looking at the picture of your radiator it's plain that my radiator is way too small. as a matter of fact it could be 99% of my cooling problems. i'll bring this to the attention of the shop i go to.
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Post by scooterollie on Jan 20, 2008 14:46:05 GMT -5
Andi; Great pics of the corrosion problem often found with the O.E. Chinese coolant! Like they say, a picture is worth a thousand warnings in posts (words). This should be required viewing for all members who think the coolant in their new Chinese scoot LOOKS good when they remove the radiator cap. In a more severe case like yours, I would even be tempted to use a flushing chemical. There is no way of knowing for certain unless you open up the system. I believe this condition can also cause the thermostat to stick closed on a brand new scoot, thus causing overheating and possible engine damage.
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Post by scooterollie on Jan 20, 2008 14:59:07 GMT -5
Leo; Not to question your competence but are you certain that both are radiators? One isn't an oil cooler? If they both are radiators, that is kind of interesting. Makes me a little suspect of the technical knowledge of the engineers (LOL) at that assembler. When everything is right, the normal sized radiator, placed either behind the front wheel or farther back like some scoots, should adequately cool the scoot. Problem is, we have had pinched hoses, incorrectly routed hoses, internal corrosion buildup, sticking thermostats, missing or improperly tightened clamps, failed fans and sensors - and maybe more things - which have contributed to the plethora of water cooled scoot problems. I cut my eye teeth on Chinese water cooled scoots on my first CFMoto powered scoot and was ready for the Linhai. Even as good as the quality is on parts and assembly on the Linhai, the coolant was the typical Chinese crap and corrosion had already begun when I received the scoot.
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Post by Andi on Jan 20, 2008 18:08:51 GMT -5
Leo, You are missing my point, I know you have the CF Moto 244 engine and it really doesn't matter, the point is that you seem to have an overheating issue, the cause of which could be many different things. I don't think I would trust the dealer for anything at this point. Which is my point as well as my dealer told me that my corrosion was normal and not to worry about it, that after I also send the same pictures. I didn't have an overheating issue and that's because of my preventative measures, having read many posts in advance of getting my scoot I knew what to expect. I was trying to show you in detail what I personally encountered and with pictures so you could draw a reference and better troubleshoot your scoot, don't mind its a different engine model the principle remains the same. I'm not telling you to change anything or the gages on your bike, but early on I thought it strange that the rad was in the same place as on my bike and there was no obvious vent openings. If it was a problem and you needed proper directional vent openings without spoiling the look, the front cowl used on my bike may just fit, as I believe most of the body panels of our two bikes are the same. I agree with Scooterollie it seems strange that you would have two rads, one may just be an oil cooler. Where I work we have many fine technicians that can tear down anything and put it back together better then I could, but troubleshooting is a whole different story. At the risk of tooting my own horn, I will tell you that troubleshooting is what I specialize in and in fact is what I was hired for. My grandmother, God rest her soul, used to tell me: "Don't do onto others, what you don't want others to do onto you". This is a golden rule I try to live by, I have received a lot of positive feedback and help form this forum that I'm very thankful for and thought it my duty to return the favor and help other enthusiast when I can. Besides enjoying the stories and input form other like minded obviously fine human beings on this particular forum. I would like to suggest to you, to send some pics showing your two rads and some of the bikes mountings etc and we may all be able to help you better. I would also like to encourage you to do some of the checks I and others have suggested, you may be surprised at what you will find and learn. Other then that, I think we are going around in circles right now. If you have trouble with any of the checks, feel free to ask and we will explain. Andi P.S. Take a look at my bike model, I think you will see that it is mostly the same body, except for the front cowl which was obviously changed to accommodate the water cooling system. Remember this body design started out as an air cooled 125cc and/or 150cc, infact if I'm not mistaken it may have originated from Daelim.
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Post by Andi on Jan 20, 2008 18:17:48 GMT -5
Andi; Great pics of the corrosion problem often found with the O.E. Chinese coolant! Like they say, a picture is worth a thousand warnings in posts (words). This should be required viewing for all members who think the coolant in their new Chinese scoot LOOKS good when they remove the radiator cap. In a more severe case like yours, I would even be tempted to use a flushing chemical. There is no way of knowing for certain unless you open up the system. I believe this condition can also cause the thermostat to stick closed on a brand new scoot, thus causing overheating and possible engine damage. Thanks Scooterollie and I certainly agree with you, I believe most cooling problems are cause by what I encountered ..... poor coolant quality, rather then poor design. The guck that came out could easily have clogged up some of the cores in my radiator reducing the flow and therefore cooling, along with all the problems you mentioned. Andi
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Post by leo on Jan 20, 2008 19:16:27 GMT -5
Leo; Not to question your competence but are you certain that both are radiators? i never actually seen the one underneath. the shop i took it to said it was a radiator, apparently to cool the engine. it's a cycle shop so i trust their opinion. one is no doubt an after market fix. these komotos were discontinued because of a faulty design that leads to overheating. i assume they did not allow enough room underneath for a correct radiator and had to install one one the forks as a fix. i will leave the one underneath, but i'm most certainly going to replace the one on the forks with one about 4 times the size of the present one. i will no doubt have to relocate the headlights to the handlebars. my course of action is clear as day. i'll buy the over-sized radiator, do a chemical flush twice, drain, remove all hoses, the radiators (both of them), mount the big one in the nose, reconnect the hoses, re-fill with quality coolant. removing the headlights will open up two very large holes. also i will redirect the air from the wheel well, that way there can only be one direction the blast can go, front to back. i have a pretty high mechanical aptitude, probably in the upper 10% of the population, i just don't have a garage or adequate funds to do much. i've also never owned, nor worked on, a bike before.
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Post by leo on Jan 20, 2008 19:25:57 GMT -5
I would like to suggest to you, to send some pics showing your two rads and some of the bikes mountings etc and we may all be able to help you better. i don't have any way of taking pictures i can post. they are indeed similar. i bet the gauge cluster from yours will bolt right up to mine. i bet the brakes are the same too. man, that would be great.
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Post by scooterollie on Jan 20, 2008 22:03:46 GMT -5
Leo; Maybe it was retrofitted with something like an in-line transmission cooler to increase cooling capability- that would look like a small radiator. Pics would really help as we are shooting in the dark here.
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Post by earlwb on Jan 21, 2008 22:44:21 GMT -5
Well that is a pretty neat scooter. It looks like my Fiji 150 with a 250 engine in it. That makes it pretty wild with the power and speed. Good luck, it does look pretty neat.
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Post by leo on Jan 21, 2008 23:10:29 GMT -5
Well that is a pretty neat scooter. yeah, i knew i was going to buy it as soon as i parked my butt on it. it just "felt right". don't ask me to explain that cause i can't. the roadrunner race 150 dash will bolt right up to it. the handlebar pastic is identical. the rx200hp scooter is identical to mine. it definitely has guts. thanks to scootdawg i have a pretty good idea what needs to be done to cure my cooling problems. there is one other problem with it, and that is it won't cruise at a constant speed. since it idles good i assume it's either gas or vacuum related. the stock airbox was removed before i got it. that might be what's wrong. i'm positive i'll iron out all the problems with it, it's just a matter of time and patience and a little cash.
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Post by earlwb on Jan 22, 2008 7:12:17 GMT -5
leo, it sounds like it is too lean on the main jet. I bet you need to go to a larger size mainjet.
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Post by leo on Jan 22, 2008 10:17:01 GMT -5
leo, it sounds like it is too lean on the main jet. I bet you need to go to a larger size mainjet. that very well may be. the shop i took it to recommended that i spray the foam air filter with a tacky type of oil. like i said, the stock airbox was removed before i got the bike. the after market filter has no doubt leaned out the fuel causing my cruise problems. the person i bought it from was supposed to give me the stock box but never did, and he won't return my calls. i guess i could get a box somewhere, or even make my own. it's been too cold to do much with the bike.
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Post by twitch on Jan 28, 2008 11:39:48 GMT -5
I noticed you said you wanted to change the seat for better position. I would definatly take it to an upholsterer for any seat work. I have a 150cc with that same body and seat, and I tried to make the seat flat farther bqack and take it down about 3 inches ( I like cruiser style seating). The seat pan has 2 big lumps in it that are gonna be a headach to work around as a DIY upholstery job. Now if you are VERY handy, you could fabricate a new pan and cover it yourself. If you are able to do that please let me know what you used and how it goes. Also, Is there any chance you could take a picture of the engine mount on that thing? I want to know how different it is from the 150 mount.
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Post by leo on Jan 28, 2008 23:45:19 GMT -5
I noticed you said you wanted to change the seat for better position. I would definatly take it to an upholsterer for any seat work. I have a 150cc with that same body and seat, and I tried to make the seat flat farther bqack and take it down about 3 inches ( I like cruiser style seating). i know what you mean. my seat has a hump right where the middle of my butt should be. i've been thinking of using a ratchet type tie down strap to take down the hump. maybe even drilling a few holes and driving some screws thru that and the seat. if the weather is nice enough i'm going to do some maintenance on my bike. i'll take a few measurements for you. i have no way of taking and posting pics. in case you didn't know, it's the 244cc helix clone engine.
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Post by leo on Feb 18, 2008 6:26:00 GMT -5
i think i may have found part of my over heating problem: an exhaust that is too restrictive.
the clamp that holds the exhaust to the engine came loose and allowed a small amount of bypass. i noticed an increase in performance along with a decrease to overheat. now i'm wondering if i should do away entirely with the stock exhaust and go with some sort of small engine stuff. hmmmm . . . .
my other problems are that the scoot will not cruise at a constant speed and the headlights aren't adequate. the stock lights are 18W i got a pair of 55W halogens that i plan to put on the handlebars. that should remedy the light situation.
i'm still scratching my head over the cruise problem though.
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Post by scooterollie on Feb 18, 2008 8:44:03 GMT -5
Leo, While the pair of 55W lamps may give more light, they may also overload your system. Mostly, the charging system on these scoots just can't handle the extra amp draw. If you wire them directly to the battery, install a separate switch and only use them for short night trips, you might get by. I did that with a pair of fog lights on my 250 cc scoot.
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Post by leo on Feb 25, 2008 12:42:08 GMT -5
i might rig up a bigger battery and wire the lights directly to it. then parallel the two batteries. the question is: where would i mount an extra battery? and how big a battery should i consider? as part of a solution to my heat problem i've been considering larger fans for my radiator. the fan i have in mind is the same as truckers use in their cabs, a 10W model. i've also purchased an aluminum heater core to parallel with the existing radiator. the core only cost me five bucks. i got it so cheap because the dealer ordered it for someone else and they never showed up. getting airflow through the radiators will be my next concern. i'm thinking something like dryer ducting, or something similar. thermoswitch heat settings: scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=200cc&action=display&thread=1203791460
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